I agree with everything you said except that a summer of 2001 birthday who is going into 8th grade was certainly held back, they were just held back before they started school. [/quote]

There it is folks, a new word for explaining things away, we now have that aren't holdbacks, they are simply Pre-Holdbacks, that solves the problem, i'm on hold with Webster's and Wikipedia right now, hoping to get it in before August 1st, so it wont be next yea. r