Denver is a crap tournament. But feel free to claim it's a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.

stunad.

Im from NY and happen to know several parents and kids in the BLC / Madlax universe. Hate to say this, but every single one of them have said the same thing, the kid is a legit 2024.

There has to be a best player in every age group. Regardless of whether a kid plays up or down, there is a best player for every age.

So how come the mighty Madlax barely beat Looneys 6-4?

It’s a novel concept...called fall ball.

Madlax will be just fine, they'll run the table again. They still have their star attackman and they picked up a new man-child at middie. The kids got to be 6 feet tall and 160lbs. Runs well and really can't be stopped when he's running downhill. Question is why did 91play a bunch of teams this weekend that are barely A caliber teams after shooting off their mouths about only playing the best of the best. Hawks and BLC have to be the favorites for the Spring.

[quote=Anonymous]Madlax will be just fine, they'll run the table again. They still have their star attackman and they picked up a new man-child at middie. The kids got to be 6 feet tall and 160lbs. Runs well and really can't be stopped when he's running downhill. Question is why did 91play a bunch of teams this weekend that are barely A caliber teams after shooting off their mouths about only playing the best of the best. Hawks and BLC have to be the favorites for the Spring.

Hasn’t ML lost their last four in a row to Md91? Not sure what running the table “agaIn” means. Also not sure how Hawks 2024 is a projected powerhouse. BLC on the other hand is legit and getting better and better. Regardless they are all good teams and we will see in the spring!

Madlax will be just fine, they'll run the table again. They still have their star attackman and they picked up a new man-child at middie. The kids got to be 6 feet tall and 160lbs. Runs well and really can't be stopped when he's running downhill. Question is why did 91play a bunch of teams this weekend that are barely A caliber teams after shooting off their mouths about only playing the best of the best. Hawks and BLC have to be the favorites for the Spring.

Let me translate. Man-child = cheater. Repeating 7th grade. 1-2 years older than the other kids. Instead of developing stick skills, using size as an unfair advantage. Not surprising for an organization like Madlax. Coach has to recruit older kids rather than developing the kids he has.

Let me translate. Man-child = cheater. Repeating 7th grade. 1-2 years older than the other kids. Instead of developing stick skills, using size as an unfair advantage. Not surprising for an organization like Madlax. Coach has to recruit older kids rather than developing the kids he has.

I actually know the new middie. Not a holdback--parents are tall and were also athletes

Every top team in the DMV has Private school kids correct! Then by rule every top team has older kids on the team! You can not have a large number of private school kids and not have older kids. This is a fact.

I actually know the new middie. Not a holdback--parents are tall and were also athletes

He is 100% a holdback. Huge kid. Madlax has reloaded with new kids and will be the #1 team nationally. Again.

Saw his parents at Battle on the Bay. They were pretty big themselves. But I have to say, his muscular development and movement makes it look like he is a year or two older than the other kids. Regardless, that advantage doesn't last. Next year the rest of the kids will catch up.

This is not true the magic you guys keep hoping for, The catching up will not happen. The reclass kid no matter which one will still be a year to two years older this is not how math works people. Your kid might hit his growth spurt but the hold back kid will have the advantage of playing with his size for a full year or two. Your son will just be learning his new 3 inches of height and how to move. They will just all look the same size but this is only if the hold back has stopped growing. But most boys grow for 18 years not 11 or 12. Just ask your self this what does a 19 year old and and 15 year old look like???? Or a 17 and a 19 year old?? The advantage never goes away. You can maybe argue it does in college.

This is not true the magic you guys keep hoping for, The catching up will not happen. The reclass kid no matter which one will still be a year to two years older this is not how math works people. Your kid might hit his growth spurt but the hold back kid will have the advantage of playing with his size for a full year or two. Your son will just be learning his new 3 inches of height and how to move. They will just all look the same size but this is only if the hold back has stopped growing. But most boys grow for 18 years not 11 or 12. Just ask your self this what does a 19 year old and and 15 year old look like???? Or a 17 and a 19 year old?? The advantage never goes away. You can maybe argue it does in college.

This is not about speculation or a kid merely being bigger than other kids his own age. It is a fact that the kid repeated 7th grade. The kid is 1 to 2 years older than the other kids playing 2024. There is no reason that he couldn't have continued to play 2023. By dropping down, he gains an unfair advantage and puts other kids at risk of injury. He is a perfect example of what is wrong with club lacrosse and programs like Madlax. Some programs develop kids' skill sets in order to compete. Other programs like Madlax have to cheat.

Let's talk reality. Anyone that is foolish enough to repeat a grade for lacrosse reasons is not an elite player that quality schools are going to be chasing after. By Junior year it will all level out. Kids that didn't have to drop back will still be the class of the field. Unless you are chasing UMBC or High Point, your kid is better off hitting the books than taking a lap. Anyone that thinks otherwise is chasing a pipe dream that some greedy club owner created in order to convince delusional parents to pay $795 a season to play club lacrosse.

Let's talk reality. Anyone that is foolish enough to repeat a grade for lacrosse reasons is not an elite player that quality schools are going to be chasing after. By Junior year it will all level out. Kids that didn't have to drop back will still be the class of the field. Unless you are chasing UMBC or High Point, your kid is better off hitting the books than taking a lap. Anyone that thinks otherwise is chasing a pipe dream that some greedy club owner created in order to convince delusional parents to pay $795 a season to play club lacrosse.

Let's talk reality. Anyone that is foolish enough to repeat a grade for lacrosse reasons is not an elite player that quality schools are going to be chasing after. By Junior year it will all level out. Kids that didn't have to drop back will still be the class of the field. Unless you are chasing UMBC or High Point, your kid is better off hitting the books than taking a lap. Anyone that thinks otherwise is chasing a pipe dream that some greedy club owner created in order to convince delusional parents to pay $795 a season to play club lacrosse.

Let's talk reality. Anyone that is foolish enough to repeat a grade for lacrosse reasons is not an elite player that quality schools are going to be chasing after. By Junior year it will all level out. Kids that didn't have to drop back will still be the class of the field. Unless you are chasing UMBC or High Point, your kid is better off hitting the books than taking a lap. Anyone that thinks otherwise is chasing a pipe dream that some greedy club owner created in order to convince delusional parents to pay $795 a season to play club lacrosse.

Let's talk reality. Anyone that is foolish enough to repeat a grade for lacrosse reasons is not an elite player that quality schools are going to be chasing after. By Junior year it will all level out. Kids that didn't have to drop back will still be the class of the field. Unless you are chasing UMBC or High Point, your kid is better off hitting the books than taking a lap. Anyone that thinks otherwise is chasing a pipe dream that some greedy club owner created in order to convince delusional parents to pay $795 a season to play club lacrosse.

Think about it. If a child can’t compete successfully against kids his own age, to the extent that he has to play with kids a year younger than him, he is not a good player. Obviously. The good player is the kid that can compete successfully against kids his age as well as kids a year older. Dah!

But it may help line the pockets of the club that he is playing with. No down side for them.

$795 dues for a season? What club is that? Rec based? Clubs are near $2000.

I think for MadLax 2024 it is more like:

Fall $795
Winter $745
Spring $750
Summer $1250
Nationals $1000
Academy Dues $1000

The $5,540 doesn't include the clinics and other hidden charges. For older kids it is even more.

I think for MadLax 2024 it is more like:

Fall $795
Winter $745
Spring $750
Summer $1250
Nationals $1000
Academy Dues $1000

The $5,540 doesn't include the clinics and other hidden charges. For older kids it is even more.

No its not a lot higher for older kids.
Winter is Madlax but not Madlax its a stand alone Box travel team North Stars. And box league is like $300
Nationals is a over the top thing that you do not have to do and would cost the same no matter the club.
The funny thing is I do not see the other clubs breaking down the fees and what you get? Can anyone try and answer that? If Madlax is the big rip off the haters claim lets see the other clubs fees and what the fee gets you?

Hawks just under 2k Crabs just over 2k

Madlax is only $750 for spring I was a little off. All the cost are on the website clear for you to read.

This is just not true check the ages of the AA under armor team the leaked a year or two ago guessing 85% of those kids where 12 to 16 months older then what we in VA would call on age. The elite kids are from private schools overall and those kids are older. Private schools want boys to start at age 6 not 5 or even 4 like public school boys. This is a fact not a secret. Then throw in the ability to afford a extra year of private school in 8th grade they end up on top. Do all reclass kids end up at the top of the class no, but are 80% of the top kids of each class older yes this is a fact has been true for at least 6 years and will not stop anytime soon.

So every season is a separate payment. Do the boys have to tryout for each separate season, or is that only once per year?

You like stats. Here are all the stats you need. If your kid isn’t good enough to play with kids his own age, then this sport is not for him, no matter how many times you want to hold him back. He ain’t good! The on-age kids excelling against on-age kids and older, are today and tomorrow’s big time players. Regurgitate all the stats you want, but you may want to just try some common sense!

Look for the speedy on-age kids running circles around the other kids. Lacrosse is all about speed. If your kid can't run a sub-5.0 40, you can give up the D1 dream now. Holding back a kid might give them a temporary size advantage, but it is not going to make them faster.

You are correct if you are on age and playing well you are in a great spot. But you can not argue with the fact that the top kids going to the top schools are private school kids who are 12 months to 18 months older then a "on age" kid. Its like saying you do not have to be really tall to play in the NBA look at Spud Webb!
So I do not need stats to say a older player is getting D1 roster spots over on age kids more times then not.

In other words, you just realized that you humiliated your kid by putting him back a year in school and wasted a year of his life, all because he’s not a great 7th grade lacrosse player. Way to go Dad! I’m sure he’ll thank you in a few years, when he’s riding the pines, after walking on to that horrible D3 lax team somewhere in the Deep Deep South.

That is not a all the truth if my son is good to really good with on age players and I hold him back a year in one of the three ways it can be done the math proves he is way more likely to get a top D1 roster spot. I did not hold my son back I do not have the money to pull this off. But he is 17 years old now and going to play College lacrosse next year. But I promise you if we had held him back he would be at the top of the D1 list of names. If he is on the bottom of the D1 schools list now " we have a roster spot for him but we are out of Athletic aid." Then its not hard to see if we had held him back one year. He would be getting D1 money? I am still not going to hold my younger son back but I do feel a need to post on here to inform people that the hold back advantage never goes away that kid has a huge advantage. It only goes away maybe 2nd or 3rd year of college.

As I see it: if your kid is playing HoCo elite, and he is a holdback, he is on-age.
If he is playing HoCo elite, and he is on-age, then he is playing up.
If he is playing HoCo AA, and he is a holdback, then you are a lost.
If he is on-age and you don't like him playing holdbacks, find an AA team and shut your trap.

Hoco rankings for next season
91
Madlax
Hawks
Looneys
Crabs
BLC
Breakers
NL

The latest Nissan World Series of Youth Lacrosse/Inside Lacrosse 13U World Rankings were assembled based on input from a broad selection of regional youth lacrosse experts throughout the United States and Canada. All teams included in this ranking meet the WSYL’s age and roster rules, which require that all players must be born after 8/31/2005, live within 100 miles of their team’s home field and regularly play within that program.

All U.S. based teams in this ranking will participate in one of six Regional Qualifiers in the spring of 2019. Top teams from each U.S. Regional Qualifier will advance to the Championship Series in Denver, Colorado on July 1-4, 2019, where they will compete against the best U.S. and international teams for an unforgettable week of lacrosse. The WSYL Championship Game will be played at Broncos Stadium at Mile High and broadcast live on ESPN2 on July 4, 2019.

The Nissan WSYL/IL 13U World Rankings will be updated following completion of the U.S. Regional Qualifiers next Spring and again after the WSYL Championship Game next July. To find out if your team is eligible to be considered for the Nissan WSYL/IL World Ranking and to participate in the upcoming Regional Qualifiers, please visit www.worldseriesofyouthlacrosse.com or email info@wsylax.com to nominate your team.

Watch List

2WAY (Conn.), 3d Colorado, Aces OC (Calif.), API Diamondbacks (Md.), BayHawks (Calif.), Colorado Scorpions, Express North (Conn.), Kings (Colo.), Long Island Outlaws (N.Y.), OneMore Lax (N.J.) Predators (N.Y.), Rhode Island Bulldogs, Stealth (Fla.), SoCal Express (Calif.), Team Israel, Team Orlando (Fla.), True Blue (N.Y.)

Top 20

20. Carolina Miners (N.C.)
19. Baltimore Breakers (Md.)
18. True Minnesota (Minn.)
17. Northern Pacific Lacrosse (Wash./Ore.)
16. Cavalier (Va.)
15. ADVNC (Calif.)
14. Shore 2 Shore (N.Y.)
13. Tri-State (N.J.)
12. Denver Elite (Colo.)
11. Igloo (N.Y.)
10. True Illinois (Ill.)
9. BBL Elite (N.J.)
8. Prime Time (N.Y.)
7. Evolve Elite (Ont.)
6. Eclipse (Conn.)
5. Mad Dog West (Calif.)
4. Brotherly Love (Pa.)
3. LI Express (N.Y.)
2. Team 91 Long Island (N.Y.)
1. Legacy (N.Y.)

Lets focus on Hoco, not the world series.
Lets say crabs will be great this year.

How many Elite or even AA HOCO teams are ranked on the WSYLnranking?

I see Breakers made it in the top 20. They didnt win a single game last year in HOCO AA Spring.

I see Breakers made it in the top 20. They didnt win a single game last year in HOCO AA Spring.

Madlax won NAL, beat all the LI teams and not a word here?

Let's be real, these rankings are a marketing hammerhead. The only real rankings that matter for this tournament are after the tourney has been played. I stress they only matter for this tournament as the tournament format doesn't lend itself to how the clubs are put together....anywhere.....not one of the teams in that tournament is a team that plays as a primary club year round.

Let's be real, these rankings are a marketing hammerhead. The only real rankings that matter for this tournament are after the tourney has been played. I stress they only matter for this tournament as the tournament format doesn't lend itself to how the clubs are put together....anywhere.....not one of the teams in that tournament is a team that plays as a primary club year round.

Let's be real, these rankings are a marketing hammerhead. The only real rankings that matter for this tournament are after the tourney has been played. I stress they only matter for this tournament as the tournament format doesn't lend itself to how the clubs are put together....anywhere.....not one of the teams in that tournament is a team that plays as a primary club year round.

there should be no rankings at all. Its 7th grade lacrosse . Rankings matter in High school. That's it, and all the rankings matter to the schools and clubs..

there should be no rankings at all. Its 7th grade lacrosse . Rankings matter in High school. That's it, and all the rankings matter to the schools and clubs..

Wrong. My LI team has three kids that don't qualify due to age. They are not part of qualifying or playing obviously. Too bad as two are summer birthdays and just miss out. And yes, we are part of that top 3.

Cheaters. lost coach. Classless group....parents for the most part included. Gloating watching a 14+ year old running rampant on a bunch of 12 year olds. Comical. Not even a high school hero....a middle school hero!!!!

hoco rankings
91
Madlax
looneys
hawks
crabs
blc
next level
breakers

My sons top HOCO team should have 3 players who would miss the cutoff. Sure they’d be competitive with the other teams as they are all year if they went a few boys down, and would certainly demolish most of the teams outside the top 3. Just choose not to go and spend an xtra 50% of our dues to go. I’m sure its an awesome experience for the kids. Who cares who goes or not?

The kids on Madlax aren't shy about owning up to it either. They appear to be proud of the fact that their entire team is holdbacks. How many more did Madlax get this year??

Why would rankings only matter in HS and not in MS? That makes no sense. Obviously that comment comes from a parent with a kid that’s not ranked. Rankings definitely matter to the great majority of people. Players like to know how they stack up against the competition. It’s a source of motivation. High achievers like benchmarks as a validation that the time and effort they are putting in to reach their goals, is working. It’s a recognition/reward for high achievement. Rankings definitely matter. That’s why they are done. If nobody cared, there would be no rankings. The people that aren’t in the rankings won’t like them, but I guarantee that these are the people that look at them the most.

Why would rankings only matter in HS and not in MS? That makes no sense. Obviously that comment comes from a parent with a kid that’s not ranked. Rankings definitely matter to the great majority of people. Players like to know how they stack up against the competition. It’s a source of motivation. High achievers like benchmarks as a validation that the time and effort they are putting in to reach their goals, is working. It’s a recognition/reward for high achievement. Rankings definitely matter. That’s why they are done. If nobody cared, there would be no rankings. The people that aren’t in the rankings won’t like them, but I guarantee that these are the people that look at them the most.

Let's be real, these rankings are a marketing hammerhead. The only real rankings that matter for this tournament are after the tourney has been played. I stress they only matter for this tournament as the tournament format doesn't lend itself to how the clubs are put together....anywhere.....not one of the teams in that tournament is a team that plays as a primary club year round.

Absolutely the ALL-TIMEall dumbest post on this site. Ever! Everyone of those clubs are nationally known, primary clubs that have been playing together for five or more years. Stay off the site, imbecile!

Absolutely the ALL-TIMEall dumbest post on this site. Ever! Everyone of those clubs are nationally known, primary clubs that have been playing together for five or more years. Stay off the site, imbecile!

Clearly you need this spelled out.

1) How many of these nationally known clubs have kids that don't meet the age requirement. Probably 90%
2) How many kids per team do you think don't make the age requirement. Probably 3-5
3) How many kids/team don't go because parents don't want to spend $3K-$5K on a lacrosse tournament?

Clubs will get stud players at key positions from teams that aren't participating. Tri-state runs a separate tryout for their WSYL team, many of the teams from the west are teams consisting of 1 or 2 strong programs. Team Israel is a bunch of kids from all over the U.S. and Israel that will have never played together before Denver.

Trust me if you don't have an elite FO guy and very good goalie you won't fair well.....a smart club would borrow one if they don't have one.

My original point was, these rankings only matter for this tournament and really only matter after the tournament has been played. Its a fun marketing thing for the kids/teams participating to get excited for...nothing else.

Now I'd appreciate an apology, you have hurt my feelings and I am a snowflake.

Madlax would have made it far and possibly win. Madlax can beat all those long island teams. As for WSYL its just a money grab. Put together a team of kids for one tournament just to win the grand prize. Really! The event isn't even that good.

Madlax could beat any of the teams on this list. They recently beat Legacy Taz and LI Lxpress

I am a Philly guy, thus no horse in the race between this LI vs MD supremacy debate. However, my sons team is AA 2024 and we have played all of the Team 91 MD, BLC, and Madlax teams vs. the Team 91 LI , Legacy, and Express Teams and I can assure you there is no contest. The MD teams are stacked with obvious rec-classes and win by out-sizing their opponents. The LI brand of lacrosse is based on elite stick skills and IQ and is without a doubt superior and they are doing it with kids clearly younger than MD AA Teams.

This is isn't about size, we have some big boys on our team as well that are on age...a 14 year old vs a 12 year just simply moves differently on an athletic field.

Our team is on the list and going. I am not sure who is over age on our team, I think we have a total of three on the whole team that have summer birthdays; however, I believe our whole starting line up is ON age except for one middie and there are kids on age behind him that are as good if not better.

Madlax you aren't technically cheating, simply own up to it, if you are winning, it is because of all the re classing going on.

I am a Philly guy, thus no horse in the race between this LI vs MD supremacy debate. However, my sons team is AA 2024 and we have played all of the Team 91 MD, BLC, and Madlax teams vs. the Team 91 LI , Legacy, and Express Teams and I can assure you there is no contest. The MD teams are stacked with obvious rec-classes and win by out-sizing their opponents. The LI brand of lacrosse is based on elite stick skills and IQ and is without a doubt superior and they are doing it with kids clearly younger than MD AA Teams.

This is isn't about size, we have some big boys on our team as well that are on age...a 14 year old vs a 12 year just simply moves differently on an athletic field.

Our team is on the list and going. I am not sure who is over age on our team, I think we have a total of three on the whole team that have summer birthdays; however, I believe our whole starting line up is ON age except for one middie and there are kids on age behind him that are as good if not better.

Madlax you aren't technically cheating, simply own up to it, if you are winning, it is because of all the re classing going on.

So you are staking the moral high ground because you have fewer holdbacks? I guess you aren't technically cheating with your 3 or more holdbacks either.

So you are staking the moral high ground because you have fewer holdbacks? I guess you aren't technically cheating with your 3 or more holdbacks either.

Madlax would have made it far and possibly win. Madlax can beat all those long island teams. As for WSYL its just a money grab. Put together a team of kids for one tournament just to win the grand prize. Really! The event isn't even that good.

That’s because Madlax is a team of 14 year olds playing a team of 12 year olds. The WSYL is a 13U tourney. Not 14U. Madlax’s Opportunity was last year with the ‘23’s. But they didn’t even try because they knew they wouldn’t get though the qualifier. Very lame to play down for all your games. Sorry, sleezey team. As sleezey an organization as it gets in this business.

Love how some people feel like they can identify holdbacks just by looking at them. My son is average-sized and on age. Two of his classmates have been about the same size as my son since pre-school but have had huge growth spurts the last 18 months. Now, all of the sudden, they have to hear whispers of being holdbacks because they grew faster, even though they are on age. Not saying that there are not holdbacks and that there is not an advantage. Just saying that many of these larger boys are not holdbacks and the problem is not as extensive as some on this Board want you to believe.

Madlax had no chance of fielding a team within the rules. But Next Level was in the same predicament but only with fewer players who were too old. NL borrowed several ML players in order to field an eligible team. Those borrowed players went right back to ML this fall.

That is a direct result of a huge amount of players being heldback/reclassed/prefirst playing now. Years ago the main thing you said when you saw a giant kid playing on age lacrosse was...darn that kid is big for his age ! Now, with the holdback world, you always wonder if he is heldback or big, and Frankly most of time today it is a holdback.

Youth lacrosse should be age and High school should be grade. Common sense.

Love how some people feel like they can identify holdbacks just by looking at them. My son is average-sized and on age. Two of his classmates have been about the same size as my son since pre-school but have had huge growth spurts the last 18 months. Now, all of the sudden, they have to hear whispers of being holdbacks because they grew faster, even though they are on age. Not saying that there are not holdbacks and that there is not an advantage. Just saying that many of these larger boys are not holdbacks and the problem is not as extensive as some on this Board want you to believe.

Too funny...yes there are holdbacks on Madlax. Funny thing is 7 of the Madlax starters in the NAL fall tourney were on age. And btw, all of those beat downs against the LI teams at NAL were without #19 and as you know by now, #24. And fyi, we didn’t even add 7 players this fall, much less 7 holdbacks.

So you it looks from the sidelines like you have about 35 players on the team and 30% of starters are not age eligible for the WSYL what does that say about the rest of the roster? Would you not want to prove that this is the best team at this age? As far as "Love how some people feel like they can identify holdbacks just by looking at them." You do know that the kids all know. They play on rec teams together, played at fall brawl, kids go to the same school, social media, ect....

So you it looks from the sidelines like you have about 35 players on the team and 30% of starters are not age eligible for the WSYL what does that say about the rest of the roster? Would you not want to prove that this is the best team at this age? As far as "Love how some people feel like they can identify holdbacks just by looking at them." You do know that the kids all know. They play on rec teams together, played at fall brawl, kids go to the same school, social media, ect....

I am calling you out as a liar on that one. If I had a team of 7 ON AGE players that just beat the #1 ranked team in U-13 by a couple of goals, while also beating the 3rd ranked team... I would be booking my tickets to Denver. Don't give me no malarky about lame tournament, expense of the trip, etc...BS.

OK lets just start over. If Madlax is based out of the DMV and the common practice in the DMV private schools is to start kids at 6 years old not 5, What would you like Madlax to do if the teams in all these tournaments not the Denver tournament are grade based? They have tryouts, you pay your $45 and show up for the grade you say your kid is in. This is not a Madlax problem this is a parents problem. They can bring their son to the 2023 tryout. Correct! Would you like them to say this team is a 2024 grad year team but your son is 12 months older then the rest of the kids. You have to play 2023. But my kid is a 2024. They are also a company that makes money. So if your client base is older and playing down in some peoples eyes. What should they do? You think if they band all older players it would be good for the bottom line? Those kids would all play VLC or Blackwolf and they would win these tournaments and get the kids who sign D1 in 5 years.

HOLD THE PHONE!!!

So in the Madlax world, your kids don't even begin school until they are a year older than the rest of the kids??

Which means, even before you begin, every kid on the team is one year older than all other 2024's??

Which means a Madlax holdback can be TWO YEARS OLDER than an on age 2024?!!!!!

HOLD THE PHONE!!!

So in the Madlax world, your kids don't even begin school until they are a year older than the rest of the kids??

Which means, even before you begin, every kid on the team is one year older than all other 2024's??

Which means a Madlax holdback can be TWO YEARS OLDER than an on age 2024?!!!!!

This is not a Madlax thing this is a DMV parent thing. The private schools try to get all the boys to start at 6 years old. Look it up. They have the money to pay for another year of daycare what do they care if they wait a year.
https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/redshirting-kindergarten/

Welcome to the world of MD private school lacrosse. Is this really the first time you read this? You must be new. Oh and by the way if you leave ML the owner sends very complimentary emails promising to support you in all your future endeavors.

I just thought that they had different admissions standards for Kindergarten, as far as the date goes (which they do), which I thought was a few months difference. I had no idea the difference was an entire year. That is REALLY eye opening. So, a true holdback would be two years older then your normal 2024. WOWWWWWW!!!

Madlax isn't even the best team in the DMV area.

And your point is? And who do you think is the best in the DMV at 2024?

Madlax isn't even the best team in the DMV area.

Last year it was MD91. Won HOCO Elitte, beat ML all three times they faced them in 2018.

Madlax isn't even the best team in the DMV area.

Last year it was MD91. Won HOCO Elitte, beat ML all three times they faced them in 2018.

Madlax isn't even the best team in the DMV area.

No wonder they are not invited to the WSYL. They are, at minimum, a PURE 2023 team, with a lot of 2022 hold backs.

It is flat out embarrassing to not be the best team in 2024. How is that not even possible??? That team is very simply a BAD 2023/2022 team! They are a year older than every team they play, and up to two years older.

And of course the irony is, there is no other team of parents that comes anywhere close to the chest pounding of the Madlax parents... "we are the best in the nation!" It NEVER ends and has been going on for several years now.

Madlax is a sorry excuse for a 2023/2022 team, with the absolute worst parents on the planet, whose sole goal is to BULLY little kids, with far bigger kids/men.

Absolutely the worst case of abuse of the system, in all of youth sports. The perfect model of how bad things can become, without proper controls.

This team is sickening.


You do know that all the other teams have older and reclass players also? And please log back in 5 or 6 years from today and see how many on this team are going to be playing D1 lacrosse. Its not fair but it works sorry sleep tight knowing you play fair.

Yes. I am aware that some teams have holdbacks. But, there is no team anywhere that can match what Madlax does. NOTHING close. Every single player on the team is a minimum of 1 year older than a typical 2024. In fact, I'm sure that most kids on that team are TWO years older than the average 2024. Sickening!

Yes. I am aware that some teams have holdbacks. But, there is no team anywhere that can match what Madlax does. NOTHING close. Every single player on the team is a minimum of 1 year older than a typical 2024. In fact, I'm sure that most kids on that team are TWO years older than the average 2024. Sickening!

No wonder they are not invited to the WSYL. They are, at minimum, a PURE 2023 team, with a lot of 2022 hold backs.

It is flat out embarrassing to not be the best team in 2024. How is that not even possible??? That team is very simply a BAD 2023/2022 team! They are a year older than every team they play, and up to two years older.

And of course the irony is, there is no other team of parents that comes anywhere close to the chest pounding of the Madlax parents... "we are the best in the nation!" It NEVER ends and has been going on for several years now.

Madlax is a sorry excuse for a 2023/2022 team, with the absolute worst parents on the planet, whose sole goal is to BULLY little kids, with far bigger kids/men.

Absolutely the worst case of abuse of the system, in all of youth sports. The perfect model of how bad things can become, without proper controls.

This team is sickening.


You do know that all the other teams have older and reclass players also? And please log back in 5 or 6 years from today and see how many on this team are going to be playing D1 lacrosse. Its not fair but it works sorry sleep tight knowing you play fair.

Notice how every time Madlax demolishes its LI competition in a big tournament, there is a flurry of activity on this page whining about holdbacks and everything else under the sun. Go back to your NY boards, losers.

Gotta admit Madlax Cap 2024 had a great summer. Madlax v MD 91 should be fun to watch in the spring. Clearly the two best 2024 teams in the DMV.

You should be ashamed. The 5 or so new kids they added are all holdback including the 6' new middie.

Unless you have birth certificates, you can not possibly know whether any of them are holdbacks. Speculating about holdbacks is poor sportsmanship. Just shut up and let the kids play.

Shut up,
and talk about crabs 2024. They will be good. May even beat Madlax.

Unless you have birth certificates, you can not possibly know whether any of them are holdbacks. Speculating about holdbacks is poor sportsmanship. Just shut up and let the kids play.

Nope. Madlax and 91MD will both go undefeated against everyone else, and the only loss suffered by either team will be to the other. Bet the house on it.

Unless you have birth certificates, you can not possibly know whether any of them are holdbacks. Speculating about holdbacks is poor sportsmanship. Just shut up and let the kids play.

Who's Sammy?

There isn’t a huge difference when you are in 10th grade versus 12 grade so high school levels off but right now with 2024,2023 and 2022 (7-9th grade)there’s a huge difference in size and strength with puberty some kids hit it some kids didn’t so enjoy winning now with the hold backs high school will be bland when your little boy just blends and doesn’t have an advantage

Are we talking 10th grade hold back vs 12th grade on-age, then you are right? Are you talking 19 year old vs 17 year old, then you are closer. If you are talking on-age 18 vs 16 then the difference is getting bigger and bigger. It used to be scholarship programs in college would red-shirt an on age kid to get them more mature. Now, you don't hear that much about this practice because the really good kids have already done so by starting school late, held back or through gap year. The advantage really doesn't disappear until young men hit their 2nd year in college regardless of age. The older kids at a young age have a huge advantage in coordination and maturity and this advantage gets them more reps, looks and better test scores.

There isn’t a huge difference when you are in 10th grade versus 12 grade so high school levels off but right now with 2024,2023 and 2022 (7-9th grade)there’s a huge difference in size and strength with puberty some kids hit it some kids didn’t so enjoy winning now with the hold backs high school will be bland when your little boy just blends and doesn’t have an advantage

You know exactly who that is.

You know exactly who that is.

A bunch of the Madlax kids brag about it to the LI kids on social media. My kid told me ALL about it. Told me a whole bunch of their names, too. You Madlax daddy’s keep denying all of these holdbacks and I’ll post them all for you. I’m sure your kid is one of them. Should be a real hoot!

There are no more ML holdbacks than any other class based team in the DC/Balt/Annap area. Post away.

You know exactly who that is.

A bunch of the Madlax kids brag about it to the LI kids on social media. My kid told me ALL about it. Told me a whole bunch of their names, too. You Madlax daddy’s keep denying all of these holdbacks and I’ll post them all for you. I’m sure your kid is one of them. Should be a real hoot!

Please don't throw all of us Madlax parents into the same boat, or assume that all purported Madlax posts are actual Madlax posts. My kid is friends with lots of the Taz kids and speaks highly of them. I have lots of respect for your team. Like you, I wish there was an age limit on club lacrosse. I think if you polled most Madlax parents, they would agree. I love it when Madlax plays Taz, and the other top LI teams. It is great to see the best play the best. I am not here to debate who on Madlax is on-age and not on-age. I think you would be surprised to learn that there is little correlation between age and size. Some of the bigger kids are younger, and smaller kids are older. Don't worry. If older kids are playing down, it will level out by high school and LI will get last laugh.

Please don't throw all of us Madlax parents into the same boat, or assume that all purported Madlax posts are actual Madlax posts. My kid is friends with lots of the Taz kids and speaks highly of them. I have lots of respect for your team. Like you, I wish there was an age limit on club lacrosse. I think if you polled most Madlax parents, they would agree. I love it when Madlax plays Taz, and the other top LI teams. It is great to see the best play the best. I am not here to debate who on Madlax is on-age and not on-age. I think you would be surprised to learn that there is little correlation between age and size. Some of the bigger kids are younger, and smaller kids are older. Don't worry. If older kids are playing down, it will level out by high school and LI will get last laugh.

Complete lie. Sad that dads have to resort to this over a kid's game.

Please don't throw all of us Madlax parents into the same boat, or assume that all purported Madlax posts are actual Madlax posts. My kid is friends with lots of the Taz kids and speaks highly of them. I have lots of respect for your team. Like you, I wish there was an age limit on club lacrosse. I think if you polled most Madlax parents, they would agree. I love it when Madlax plays Taz, and the other top LI teams. It is great to see the best play the best. I am not here to debate who on Madlax is on-age and not on-age. I think you would be surprised to learn that there is little correlation between age and size. Some of the bigger kids are younger, and smaller kids are older. Don't worry. If older kids are playing down, it will level out by high school and LI will get last laugh.

When you say "it's great to see the best play the best", I assume you mean the best of Northern Virginia against the best of Long Island. Pretty bold and inaccurate statement if you are implying anything else

When I said "it is great to see the best play the best," I was referring to the kids themselves (figurative plural), not their respective teams.
Whether it is Taz attack, Express middie, Team 91 close, Team 91 MD LSM, Hawks lefty attack, or Bethesda goalie, it is great to see these young athletes compete. I have never been one for ranking club lacrosse teams. Two years from now, I expect my kid will be more concerned with whether he makes varsity as a freshman than how his 7th grade team did.

All you Dads that are insulting kids on here for cheating really need to take a look at yourself. Are you acting off the field the way you want your son to act on the field. Take a moment and read this article: https://www.allprodad.com/confronting-crazy-sports-parents. Then try to act like an adult. One that won't embarrass your son or wife.

This, from the the parent of one of the 35 holdbacks on the Madlax team. What are YOU teaching your son, you hipocrot?!

LOL. This sentence perfectly captures the Long Island parent. Uneducated, I-Roc drivining, leg-tat parent. The armpit of America.

"hipocrot". LOL.

LOL. This sentence perfectly captures the Long Island parent. Uneducated, I-Roc drivining, leg-tat parent. The armpit of America.

"hipocrot". LOL.

Didn’t express beat madlax 2024 at NLF

Didn’t express beat madlax 2024 at NLF

Oh geez.... Now we have Biff acting like a tough guy. Get in your Prius and go eat some week old crab cakes. Oh and bring Buffy....she needs some sun after working long hours at Denny's down in B'more to support you.

Take this drama to the Hold back Forum.

There’s a holdback forum? Fun! Where? I want to read all the justifications.

There’s a holdback forum? Fun! Where? I want to read all the justifications.

I have the solution! No need for a hold back forum. From now on, all of the MD DC holdback teams use the ‘23 board, and the ‘24 teams, that actually have ‘24 players, stay on the ‘24 thread! Makes total sense!!

Take it to the Madlax forum, and dont lump other MD clubs in with them.

I wasn't aware colleges and high schools limited a kid's eligibility because his age doesn't meet the 9/1 date or isn't the same as it is up in NY.

It doesnt...But we are talking YOUTH lacrosse. Different world. Well different except to holdbacks who want an advantage most players dont get...The after playing against younger players the parents pat themselves on back and make excuses for holding him back

It doesnt...But we are talking YOUTH lacrosse. Different world. Well different except to holdbacks who want an advantage most players dont get...The after playing against younger players the parents pat themselves on back and make excuses for holding him back

It's not against the rules. Don't play against them if you are so concerned.

It's not against the rules. Don't play against them if you are so concerned.

I wasn't aware colleges and high schools limited a kid's eligibility because his age doesn't meet the 9/1 date or isn't the same as it is up in NY.

A double hold back is one thing, but a pre first kid at a private school isn't a sinister plot to overthrow LI.
Yes, it might be a disguised money grab for the schools, but generally parents don't have any recourse if the
school makes the decision. The decision is usually based on a kids maturity level and not so much on academic performance.

A double hold back is one thing, but a pre first kid at a private school isn't a sinister plot to overthrow LI.
Yes, it might be a disguised money grab for the schools, but generally parents don't have any recourse if the
school makes the decision. The decision is usually based on a kids maturity level and not so much on academic performance.

This post typifies the Madlax hold back parent absolutely perfectly!! Dude. A kid that starts school a year later, is a year older than his peers. He’s a holdback. Not a “sort of” holdback. A full fledged cheating holdback. Since ALL Madlax DC prep school kids are a year older from starting school a year late, they don’t see them as holdbacks. They think only their kids that start school a year late AND are then held back AGAIN are real holdbacks, of which they have many! Those kids will be 15 years old this year! On LI these kids would be 2022’s and FRESHMAN IN HIGH SCHOOL! You people have very twisted minds.

This post typifies the Madlax hold back parent absolutely perfectly!! Dude. A kid that starts school a year later, is a year older than his peers. He’s a holdback. Not a “sort of” holdback. A full fledged cheating holdback. Since ALL Madlax DC prep school kids are a year older from starting school a year late, they don’t see them as holdbacks. They think only their kids that start school a year late AND are then held back AGAIN are real holdbacks, of which they have many! Those kids will be 15 years old this year! On LI these kids would be 2022’s and FRESHMAN IN HIGH SCHOOL! You people have very twisted minds.

This post typifies the Madlax hold back parent absolutely perfectly!! Dude. A kid that starts school a year later, is a year older than his peers. He’s a holdback. Not a “sort of” holdback. A full fledged cheating holdback. Since ALL Madlax DC prep school kids are a year older from starting school a year late, they don’t see them as holdbacks. They think only their kids that start school a year late AND are then held back AGAIN are real holdbacks, of which they have many! Those kids will be 15 years old this year! On LI these kids would be 2022’s and FRESHMAN IN HIGH SCHOOL! You people have very twisted minds.

Keep telling your kid whatever you want to on the ride home from the field. Most of the pre first kids were young to begin with...late summer birthdays. I know plenty that will be 14 in late July and August. You need the storyline to make you feel better and if that's what works at your dinner table, great.

Yeah. And the good freshman play HS varsity. So if your double holdbacks are as good as you say they are, they should be playing for their high school varsity team, not against a bunch of pre-puberty 7th grade children. Disgusting cheats!

Yeah. And the good freshman play HS varsity. So if your double holdbacks are as good as you say they are, they should be playing for their high school varsity team, not against a bunch of pre-puberty 7th grade children. Disgusting cheats!

I’m sure you do have kids that will be 14 in July and August. Is that, in your mind, somehow cheating less?? Those kids should be in 8th grade!

Since you brought it up... I can tell you, there are several starters on our LI 2024 team that will still be 12 in July and August, and far later than that. Yes. Twelve.

I’m sure you know several of your kids that will be 14 during months throughout the winter and spring, so the fact that you single out a couple of kids that have summer birthdays, is really inconsequential, isn’t it? Kinda like an oserich sticking his head in the sand.

But enough with the holdbacks. Let’s talk Madlax double holdbacks. Yeah, the 15 year olds. Are some of those kids summer babies too? And if so, in the Madlax twisted fantasy world, is that somehow cheating less, also?? Ok. How many winter/spring double holdbacks? You don’t want to talk about any of the kids that are 15 already or will be in the next few months? Doing the ostrich thing again?

Yes, there are also 12 year old kids in 7th grade, and on these DC/MD teams as well.

Yes, there are also 12 year old kids in 7th grade, and on these DC/MD teams as well.

You are such a dope.

Here is the age eligibility for NY.
AGE AND GRADE: Regulation of the Commissioner of Education: A student shall be eligible for interschool competition in grades 9, 10, 11 and 12 until his/her nineteenth birthday. If the age of nineteen years is reached on or after July 1, the student may continue to participate during that school year in all sports.

Here it is for schools like Landon and Bullis: Any student turning nineteen years of age prior to September 1 is not eligible for that school year.

Here it is for MD schools: Students who are 19 years old or older as of August 31 are ineligible to participate in interscholastic athletics.

They are all the same. Go hit the wall, kid.

Correct. Like their new 6’1”, double holdback, midi-FO, behemoth, that played for the ‘23 DC Dogs last year. You know, the one that replaced their last 6’1” double holdback, behemoth that went back to being just a holdback, now playing with the ‘23s, which Madlax calls playing “up”. Probably the only team anywhere that refers to one of their holdback as playing “up”, in their fantasy world. Just the most visible example of the many Madlax players that should be mid way through their freshman year in high school right now. Does the abuse of a “grade based” based system, as opposed to an “age based” system, get any worse? Lets truly hope not. Absolutely despicable.

LI dads say what you want. Our boys can’t wait to keep kicking your boys up and down the field as we have for the past 4 years when they were all pre-pubescent! Now it just stands out even more how dominating it is to you guys. Get use to it bc your boys will always be behind. Tell Johnny to go to the carport and start doing some benching and curls with the cinderblocks (ps...make sure the car up on the jack doesn’t fall on him). Btw, my sons a winter 05 birthdate and he’s been rolling your kids for years as a starter. Give it up and go complain about something else. And here’s another tidbit for some parenting advise, try not to take these beatdowns that your boys are experiencing personally and don’t take it out on them. They really need to get use to being second best from here on out...it’s just reality.

In the rare event that a prefirst kid is held back a second time, it wouldn't happen until the rest of the team starts 9th grade. That's when these kids change private schools and repeat 8th grade. So your pre puberty 7th graders are safe.

Oh really??

Keep up the BS, but facts speak louder than BS...

2024 Long Island Express NLF 2018 National Champions, victorious over 2023/2022 Madlax DC.

Madlax plays down 2 years and still can’t win.

Pathetic slime.

Point out for me the last time Taz and Wolfpack beat Madlax. And also highlight for me the number of times Madlax has beaten them since their last win. 6 months? 12 months? You LI daddies live too far in the past. Pretty simple....just get some 2024 grad year players.

Point out for me the last time Taz and Wolfpack beat Madlax. And also highlight for me the number of times Madlax has beaten them since their last win. 6 months? 12 months? You LI daddies live too far in the past. Pretty simple....just get some 2024 grad year players.

I don’t know anything about WP or Taz, but my kid s 24 Express team beat your holdbacks in the last NLF tourney of the summer last year. Is that recent enough for you? What do you have to say about that? But seriously, why doesn’t Madlax ever play on age. Playing all your games down is gutless.

I don’t know anything about WP or Taz, but my kid s 24 Express team beat your holdbacks in the last NLF tourney of the summer last year. Is that recent enough for you? What do you have to say about that? But seriously, why doesn’t Madlax ever play on age. Playing all your games down is gutless.

So right, Express beat Madlax at NLF....congrats. And then Madlax destroyed them in Delaware at the NAL in November....or did you forget the second half of the question. Remind me how many times Express has beaten Madlax again?

Sure is. What would happen if Madlax ever played on age, would your kids cry? Pee their little holdback pull-ups? Go running home to mommy??

Sorry to intrude on this two way conversation but I can add that I have watched many 2024 Madlax players who also play outside of Madlax tournaments. I really do not know and do not care about the DOB's of these players but if the 2024 kids are really older than they are an average to below average 2023 team. Look at the box league this winter, Mclean box league, fall brawl, NVYLL 14U, or other times where many of these kids play outside of Madlax. They are not the best players in middle school. Some of the older DC Dogs players are top 8th graders but they are also older than the other 8th graders so they do not play in these age restricted leagues and events. The 2024 players do but certainly do not dominate on age 8th graders.

Ok one little question. If you see Madlax Cap 2024 players playing in NVYLL then they are not as old as people try to say they are. NVYLL is a age based league. So what level are the on age players for 2024 playing in 14U or 12U ? If everyone is playing in 14U then they are all no more then 24 months apart at the very most? But if you are telling me the on age kids play 12U and the Madlax kids play 14U then they could be a lot older LOL?

I guess when your players are not the correct age it can be confusing. For the rest of us it is very easy. NVYLL even has a birth date chart to assist. But, let me spell it out for you. This is a 2024 group so none of them would be 12U that would have been last season. 12U is 5th and 6th grade division and 14U is 7th and 8th graders. Since last spring there was a Mclean box fall league, fall brawl tournament, Madlax box league and there will be NVYLL this spring. There have been and will be Madlax kids in each of these. The 2024 team should all be in 7th grade and playing 14U. Funny thing is that Madlax 2023's for the most part do not play in any of these events as they have already aged out? Many 2024's do play in Mclean league, Fall Brawl, Madlax box (their own league) and NVYLL. These are all age based. When playing true on age teams in the 14U Div. the Madlax players do not seem to dominate these leagues. They should be younger 7th graders and may next year but they will be the best but this fall and this year they did not. The 8th grade Madlax players for the most part to not participate in these leagues. Mainly because the 8th grade team is mostly a MD team. However even look at the Madlax box league which is open to on age 7th and 8th graders where VLC and Cavalier 8th graders are the top teams. If Madlax 2024 is comprised of older players (I have zero knowledge to verify this) then they would be average at best if they played other 2023 teams in the area.

Just wait until 2020, when 24 comes back and teams up with the beast and other mid.....the LI dads will go beserk!

That’s where you’re wrong. Again. We like playing the MD holdback teams. Great for our kids. Competitive games. Just don’t know why you play 12/13 year old teams. For me, I always wanted my kid to play up. He’s good enough, but too small, so reluctantly he has stayed on grade. It never entered my mind for him to ever play down. Why would I do that? The more he is challenged, within reason, the better for his development. Common sense. I was shocked the first time I went to MD for a tourney and learned that most of the kids were a year older than my kid, and playing down. Why would anyone do that, I thought. Absolutely the worst thing for a kids development. Do MD teams need T-shirt’s that badly. Still blows my mind how prevalent it is in MD, and how some teams, like Madlax, take it to the extreme.

I guess when your players are not the correct age it can be confusing. For the rest of
it is very easy. NVYLL even has a birth date chart to assist. But, let me spell it out for you. This is a 2024 group so none of them would be 12U that would have been last season. 12U is 5th and 6th grade division and 14U is 7th and 8th graders. Since last spring there was a Mclean box fall league, fall brawl tournament, Madlax box league and there will be NVYLL this spring. There have been and will be Madlax kids in each of these. The 2024 team should all be in 7th grade and playing 14U. Funny thing is that Madlax 2023's for the most part do not play in any of these events as they have already aged out? Many 2024's do play in Mclean league, Fall Brawl, Madlax box (their own league) and NVYLL. These are all age based. When playing true on age teams in the 14U Div. the Madlax players do not seem to dominate these leagues. They should be younger 7th graders and may next year but they will be the best but this fall and this year they did not. The 8th grade Madlax players for the most part to not participate in these leagues. Mainly because the 8th grade team is mostly a MD team. However even look at the Madlax box league which is open to on age 7th and 8th graders where VLC and Cavalier 8th graders are the top teams. If Madlax 2024 is comprised of older players (I have zero knowledge to verify this) then they would be average at best if they played other 2023 teams in the area.

Most Madlax 2024 kids don't play rec. Madlax 2024 coach tries to forbid it. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't know a single Madlax 2024 Capital kid that plays rec box. Some of the orange helmets that you saw may have been DMV kids. When Madlax 2024 Capital kids play rec, they mostly do it for kicks and extra reps and miss more games than they make. Also they are usually on an island surrounded by non-club kids. Madlax 2024 is not like Cavalier and some of the other Virginia clubs that will take their entire club team and also enter it as a rec team. But even when programs like Cavalier do this, there are some Madlax on-age 7th graders that can run circles around the Cavalier and other Virginia 8th grade teams. Saw it first hand at Fall Brawl this last fall. If I remember correctly, Madlax 2024 beat Cavalier 2023 not that long ago.

Most Madlax 2024 kids don't play rec. Madlax 2024 coach tries to forbid it. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't know a single Madlax 2024 Capital kid that plays rec box. Some of the orange helmets that you saw may have been DMV kids. When Madlax 2024 Capital kids play rec, they mostly do it for kicks and extra reps and miss more games than they make. Also they are usually on an island surrounded by non-club kids. Madlax 2024 is not like Cavalier and some of the other Virginia clubs that will take their entire club team and also enter it as a rec team. But even when programs like Cavalier do this, there are some Madlax on-age 7th graders that can run circles around the Cavalier and other Virginia 8th grade teams. Saw it first hand at Fall Brawl this last fall. If I remember correctly, Madlax 2024 beat Cavalier 2023 not that long ago.

"some Madlax on-age 7th graders that can run circles around the Cavalier and other Virginia 8th grade teams. Saw it first hand at Fall Brawl this last fall."

You may have attended a different event. The fall brawl was at Robinson HS. There were no Madlax 2024 kids on the top teams maybe in the B bracket?

There are plenty of kids playing. They are interspersed among the cbll teams.

Talking about same event. If I remember correctly, the team that I am thinking of swept pool play, won braveheart in semifinal, and was leading by several goals with minutes to go in final when they blew lead.

So if you were at this event explain how Madlax 2024 players run circles around NVA 8th graders? The best MCLean kids were Next Level and VLC and they did not win.

Why did the Madlax kid who played for the DC Dogs 2023 team reclass at 7th grade? Would think he would wait until next year.

Not ML parent here - there's a few kids on the very good ML 2025 capital team who are correctly aged 6th graders - they do have some big defensemen though. The really bad 2025/26 DVM team has a developmental 2024 player.

Not ML parent here - there's a few kids on the very good ML 2025 capital team who are correctly aged 6th graders - they do have some big defensemen though. The really bad 2025/26 DVM team has a developmental 2024 player.

Where did the 7 new Madlax holdbacks come from? Heard that some were from BL. Not sure that’s correct though.

The organization sold the family on doing it now.

Funny considering my son is an on age player for madlax 24 capital and played in the fall brawl and ran circles around most of the 23s from Braddock rd and Cavs/VLC. Total joke! And like the previous post stated, most of the better madlax 24s don’t even play Rec in VA. And lastly, the Cbll can’t be used for any sort of comparison. Over 50% of the 24 madlax Capital team doesn’t play box at all and most of the the ones that do play box only play for the NorthStars team.

the problem is you do not know what on age is. being 14 turning 15 is not on age. So please!!!

oh please. if the kid played in fall brawl then he was on age USL.
but oh please. if 50% of ML capital didn't play box then they probably weren't USL on age.

Remember, ML couldn't field a team to try and qualify for WSYL from over 50 kids on the 2 teams. And ML, and others in the elite division at HoCo, play double holdbacks. Ridonkulous.

As a HoCo parent, I would love to see HoCo clean up the league. There is a simple, easy fix that will keep club owners happy, allow kids some flexibility to play with friends from school, protect the kids from injury, and protect the league from criticism and liability. All HoCo has to do is change one sentence of their bylaws & league rules to mirror what AAU has done for years. AAU knows what it is doing and has struck the perfect grade/age balance and HoCo should learn from AAU's lead.

HoCo's "club" bylaws current read: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player's current grade level. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division.

The only change that needs to be made is: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player’s current grade level, but in order to play in the 8th grade division the player must not have turned 15 before beginning the 8th grade; to play in the 7th grade division the player must not have turned 14 before beginning the 7th grade; etc. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division.

As you can see, this tracks the AAU age restrictions found on page 5: http://image.aausports.org/handbooks/boys_basketball/2018_BoysBskHandbook_10-5-2017_V02-GT.pdf.

This simple rule change would allow kids to continue to play with their existing club team, unless they have been held-back more than once.
Hopefully we can all agree that with summer birthdays, kids doing pre-K for non-lacrosse reasons, kids repeating grades for academic or admission reasons, there should be some flexibility for kids to play with their current grade, but there really is no reason to allow double-holdbacks to play in a youth league, even if it is grade based. Let's clean up the league and make it a more level, safer playing field for all.

So you grand solution to the holdback problem is to eliminate the double holdbacks, but holdbacks are fine?? Really?? By definition, that does nothing for the holdback issue.

Don't argue with these NY donks. The current class based system works well and that's why the wide majority of the country uses it. The AAU model is a good one but the top clubs won't impose it upon themselves and the HoCo is a collective of clubs and the clubs make the rules. It's up to the clubs to institute a rule like this.

You will always have kids that are older no matter what system you follow. If you use calendar year, or 9/1 age, then there will always be kids that are up to 364 days older. At least if you follow the AAU model, kids are in a tighter age range than they otherwise would be. It is the best of both worlds. You are never going to get clubs to go back to age based, so you are wasting your breath on that argument. That ship has sailed. Grade is much easier for clubs and recruiting. You don't have kids flip-flopping between age brackets. They just move up together and gel as a team. They stay with their friends from school and teammates from other grade based teams.

Rising 8th graders are 12 and 13. You’re saying it’s ok for the kid to be 15 on the 2nd day of school, of 8th grade. That makes him a year and a half older than many on age kids. FYI that’s a holdback!! The thing you’re trying to eliminate. Remember? You MD people have a serious addiction problem with holdbacks. Gotta ween yourself off the drug? How bout going cold turkey. Change that 15 to a 14 and play true on age like the rest of the world.

As a HoCo parent, I would love to see HoCo clean up the league. There is a simple, easy fix that will keep club owners happy, allow kids some flexibility to play with friends from school, protect the kids from injury, and protect the league from criticism and liability. All HoCo has to do is change one sentence of their bylaws & league rules to mirror what AAU has done for years. AAU knows what it is doing and has struck the perfect grade/age balance and HoCo should learn from AAU's lead.

HoCo's "club" bylaws current read: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player's current grade level. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division.

The only change that needs to be made is: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player’s current grade level, but in order to play in the 8th grade division the player must not have turned 15 before beginning the 8th grade; to play in the 7th grade division the player must not have turned 14 before beginning the 7th grade; etc. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division.

As you can see, this tracks the AAU age restrictions found on page 5: http://image.aausports.org/handbooks/boys_basketball/2018_BoysBskHandbook_10-5-2017_V02-GT.pdf.

This simple rule change would allow kids to continue to play with their existing club team, unless they have been held-back more than once.
Hopefully we can all agree that with summer birthdays, kids doing pre-K for non-lacrosse reasons, kids repeating grades for academic or admission reasons, there should be some flexibility for kids to play with their current grade, but there really is no reason to allow double-holdbacks to play in a youth league, even if it is grade based. Let's clean up the league and make it a more level, safer playing field for all.

Sounds like you need to work on your reading comprehension and math. Go back and read the original email. If it helps read it really slowly. In HoCo area and most of the country the age cutoff is 9/1.

Don't kid yourself. NY teams have just as many, if not more holdbacks than MD teams. What do you think a kid with a fall 2005 birthday playing LI 2024 is?

Don't kid yourself. NY teams have just as many, if not more holdbacks than MD teams. What do you think a kid with a fall 2005 birthday playing LI 2024 is?

Grade base is a joke in Youth in AAU BB, The better Youth teams dont follow grades. ...Most teams are age based in AAU BB YOUTH..HS varies depending on area. Youth Club Lacrosse in Maryland is cancer that is spreading out across the country. Holdbacks in Youth lacrosse is wrong. Common sense tells you that

Really Madlax-double-holdback-dad? Is your kid the former ‘23 DC Dogs 6’1” 170 pounder? Or maybe he is 12? LMAO!

LI has more holdbacks? Just once, could you make a mature comment that doesn’t sound like it was made by one of your holdbacks?

Right after the on age LI teams dominate the 2023/2022 MD teams, they will be headed to the 13U World Series of Youth Lacrosse to defend their thrown as the best 2024 team in the world. All 100% 13U non-cheating players. NO HOLD BACKS!! UNDERSTAND DUMBA$$?? What will the 60 Madlax players be doing that week? They will be watching the best 2024 players in the world, that what. NO HOLDBACKS. NONE.

And middle school is where the difference is magnified 100X. The difference between a 12 year old pre-pubescent and a 15 year post-pubescent is the difference between “babies” and “men”. The 12 year old “babies” are 4’10” 99 lbs vs 6’ 1”+ 165 lbs+ 15 year old “men”. So these kids that should be playing high school varsity on a very high level, are competing against small 99 lb boys. How does it make any sense at all to put the two together. It’s a recipe for disaster. Somebody is going to get seriously hurt or possibly worse. And when that happens, and it will happen, the masses will say, how did any responsible adult knowingly let that happen? The proverbial LaxinItUp will hit the fan, and big time changes will happen very fast. But it’s unconscionsble that it’s going to take such a tragic event to make that happen, when anybody with a brain larger than the size of a pea, knows what is going on here is wrong!

Maybe we can get a reasonable answer for this, from a Madlax parent. Personally, I don’t think Madlax is all holdbacks. My best estimate is that the team is 2/3’s holdbacks. If that’s accuarate, since Madlax has two teams, there should be approximately 20 on-age players, between the two teams. Plenty of players to go to Denver. However, there is no team, so that indicates two things to me. 1. I’m wrong and the team is a lot more than 2/3’s holdbacks, or 2. The owners/coaches feel that these 20 players are subpar players. Which is it?

So what is your alternative? Is it - any delayed entry kid born before March 1 (approximate HoCo start date) will have to play in the class category above? Are you advocating the country goes back to strict calendar year to start school so all 8th graders could only be a maximum of 14 for the HoCo league? Is it to follow USL rules on participation?

Others have suggested going strictly by age where on a kid's birthday, they age up into the next group automatically. This way a kid will be the youngest and eventually be the oldest on the team.

Then you have to figure out how to get all the clubs and organizations to follow any change in a way that is to their benefit without financial or organizational pain. The clubs don't care because the older kids make their teams better. The colleges don't care because it is saving them the cost of red-shirting and they now have a better recruiting sense because all these holdbacks have matured and there are less surprises when they hit college. The parents don't care because they think they are doing what's best for their kids.

It's been a problem for a long time but the constant disruption on these threads don't move the needle.

As a HoCo parent, I would love to see HoCo clean up the league. There is a simple, easy fix that will keep club owners happy, allow kids some flexibility to play with friends from school, protect the kids from injury, and protect the league from criticism and liability. All HoCo has to do is change one sentence of their bylaws & league rules to mirror what AAU has done for years. AAU knows what it is doing and has struck the perfect grade/age balance and HoCo should learn from AAU's lead.

HoCo's "club" bylaws current read: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player's current grade level. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division.

The only change that needs to be made is: The Conference follows a grade based system based on the player’s current grade level, but in order to play in the 8th grade division the player must not have turned 15 before beginning the 8th grade; to play in the 7th grade division the player must not have turned 14 before beginning the 7th grade; etc. Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, or varsity team is not eligible for the 8th grade division
As you can see, this tracks the AAU age restrictions found on page 5: http://image.aausports.org/handbooks/boys_basketball/2018_BoysBskHandbook_10-5-2017_V02-GT.pdf.

This simple rule change would allow kids to continue to play with their existing club team, unless they have been held-back more than once.
Hopefully we can all agree that with summer birthdays, kids doing pre-K for non-lacrosse reasons, kids repeating grades for academic or admission reasons, there should be some flexibility for kids to play with their current grade, but there really is no reason to allow double-holdbacks to play in a youth league, even if it is grade based. Let's clean up the league and make it a more level, safer playing field for all.

Grade base is a joke in Youth in AAU BB, The better Youth teams dont follow grades. ...Most teams are age based in AAU BB YOUTH..HS varies depending on area. Youth Club Lacrosse in Maryland is cancer that is spreading out across the country. Holdbacks in Youth lacrosse is wrong. Common sense tells you that

And middle school is where the difference is magnified 100X. The difference between a 12 year old pre-pubescent and a 15 year post-pubescent is the difference between “babies” and “men”. The 12 year old “babies” are 4’10” 99 lbs vs 6’ 1”+ 165 lbs+ 15 year old “men”. So these kids that should be playing high school varsity on a very high level, are competing against small 99 lb boys. How does it make any sense at all to put the two together. It’s a recipe for disaster. Somebody is going to get seriously hurt or possibly worse. And when that happens, and it will happen, the masses will say, how did any responsible adult knowingly let that happen? The proverbial LaxinItUp will hit the fan, and big time changes will happen very fast. But it’s unconscionsble that it’s going to take such a tragic event to make that happen, when anybody with a brain larger than the size of a pea, knows what is going on here is wrong!

Provide an alternative with dates of eligibility.

I have to ask, My younger son plays travel hockey, all those teams go by birth year. is there a reason why travel lax has not done the same?

I have to ask, My younger son plays travel hockey, all those teams go by birth year. is there a reason why travel lax has not done the same?

COMMON SENSE : Most Schools use Sept 1 ...USE THAT for Youth Lacrosse ( up to 8th grade) .. Somehow for 50 years YOUTH lacrosse survived based on Age until about 5 years ago when the Private school holdback/prefirst influence reared its ugly head.

Frankly the match that stated it was the ignorant people from HOCO ( who have children in Private schools) who started a GRADE base league instead of AGE based like ALL other leagues are in Howard County recreation Department.

HS is where you can get an your advantage. Common Sense.. HS is about grade and Youth is about AGE..Spin Away Prefirst/holdback apologists. More parents are reclassing/prefirst/holdback than ever before, Holdbacks are becoming an epidemic due to advantage in youth sports. Pretty Sad

Similarly, all of youth soccer has gone age-based (Jan 1). Somehow all of those players are still getting into college. Doesn't seem very difficult.

UMMM US Lacrosse has age guidelines as well. September is the most logical as it mirrors many school systems. However, HOCO chooses not to use US Lacrosse guidelines. Funny how the US Lacrosse in in Sparks not far from the home base for several clubs and yet they have no influence on the youth game. US Lacrosse should reach out and make a bigger push or get out of the way. The age guidelines US Lacrosse uses should be enforced by a Howard County public league.

UMMM US Lacrosse has age guidelines as well. September is the most logical as it mirrors many school systems. However, HOCO chooses not to use US Lacrosse guidelines. Funny how the US Lacrosse in in Sparks not far from the home base for several clubs and yet they have no influence on the youth game. US Lacrosse should reach out and make a bigger push or get out of the way. The age guidelines US Lacrosse uses should be enforced by a Howard County public league.

MadLax didn't have enough age eligible to field 1 team so #2 doesn't matter. Unfortunately, that's true and the kids they did have that were good played for Next Level last year. They then went back to ML.

So what is your alternative? Is it - any delayed entry kid born before March 1 (approximate HoCo start date) will have to play in the class category above? Are you advocating the country goes back to strict calendar year to start school so all 8th graders could only be a maximum of 14 for the HoCo league? Is it to follow USL rules on participation?

Others have suggested going strictly by age where on a kid's birthday, they age up into the next group automatically. This way a kid will be the youngest and eventually be the oldest on the team.

Then you have to figure out how to get all the clubs and organizations to follow any change in a way that is to their benefit without financial or organizational pain. The clubs don't care because the older kids make their teams better. The colleges don't care because it is saving them the cost of red-shirting and they now have a better recruiting sense because all these holdbacks have matured and there are less surprises when they hit college. The parents don't care because they think they are doing what's best for their kids.

It's been a problem for a long time but the constant disruption on these threads don't move the needle.

In discussing top 2024 in the Mid Atlantic, don't forget Cavalier 2024. Inside Lacrosse ranks them #16 in the world.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqLcCF1ADnW

Largest Sport in World that recruits talent is by age, Soccer. Anyone with any sense or fairplay knows that youth sports should be by age.

Lacrosse is the only youth sport I know that is overrun with older kids at highest level playing against younger kids, and then claiming that same older players are superstars. Sad but Funny

Got it. You are upset because you are no longer the oldest in your class and you want to beat up on the June through August kids.

If it's an age group instead of a class based why does it have to be September. I think it should go by calendar year so my January kid is the oldest and you are the youngest.

The only answer is exact birth date. A kid celebrates his 12th birthday, they move out of 11U and into 12U/13U. And if a kid ages out during HoCo then tough. Good luck in trying to implement it as the parents with kids born in September - November or holdbacks will never agree. The teams shout about team function (nonsense at the youth level) and there's just more paperwork involved so the tournaments and clubs don't want the hassle.

The double holdback, however, is absolutely outrageous. This is a kid who is born prior to the 9/1 date and is then held back sometime again. Some of it is due to learning or social problems but some of it is absolutely sports related.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
The only way to fix HoCo in a way that clubs will actually agree to is the AAU rules. They have been tested and they work in a sport that actually matters.

I take it your kid is one of the kids getting "run" over. Get used to it. He is still going to be small in high school.

Cavalier not good. Glorified rec. Those rankings are a total joke.

I take it your kid is one of the kids getting "run" over. Get used to it. He is still going to be small in high school.

Got it. You are upset because you are no longer the oldest in your class and you want to beat up on the June through August kids.

If it's an age group instead of a class based why does it have to be September. I think it should go by calendar year so my January kid is the oldest and you are the youngest.

The only answer is exact birth date. A kid celebrates his 12th birthday, they move out of 11U and into 12U/13U. And if a kid ages out during HoCo then tough. Good luck in trying to implement it as the parents with kids born in September - November or holdbacks will never agree. The teams shout about team function (nonsense at the youth level) and there's just more paperwork involved so the tournaments and clubs don't want the hassle.

The double holdback, however, is absolutely outrageous. This is a kid who is born prior to the 9/1 date and is then held back sometime again. Some of it is due to learning or social problems but some of it is absolutely sports related.

Why is September the most logical if you are going age based instead of class? Why not calendar year since the entire country thinks January 1st is the first day of the year but not every school system starts on 9/1. Why not March 1st since that's the approximate start date of the league and that's when you really are trying to regulate the age. It's not so easy.

USL is a joke. It has no power and is completely in-bred and full of cronyism. It exists merely to feed itself.

It is easy.. Pick a date. Sept 1 works with majority of school systems. Or Jan 1 which soccer has done. It isnt that hard, It is just a date all have to live with. We are talking YOUTH sports ?? RIght ?? High School is still grade last I checked ??

It is easy.. Pick a date. Sept 1 works with majority of school systems. Or Jan 1 which soccer has done. It isnt that hard, It is just a date all have to live with. We are talking YOUTH sports ?? RIght ?? High School is still grade last I checked ??

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=cltlax][quote=Anonymous]
It is easy.. Pick a date. Sept 1 works with majority of school systems. Or Jan 1 which soccer has done. It isnt that hard, It is just a date all have to live with. We are talking YOUTH sports ?? RIght ?? High School is still grade last I checked ??

Most people on the 2024 thread call any ‘05 Birthday a holdback. So make it Jan 1st.

Changing the topic. Which six teams will qualify for the WSYL from the North region?

A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.

NY donk forgot he was trolling on a Mid Atlantic thread.

A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.

I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.

I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.

I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.

I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.

Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.

So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.

And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.

NLF has the two most influential clubs as founding members, if they wanted to stop the madness, they could...and the people most negatively affected are the parents that finance these clubs...such ridiculous irony...The fact that HOCO created this mess does not relieve the other clubs from culpability.

"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change

"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

OK, Madlax parent, I'm calling your bluff. Let's hear the names and numbers. Don't leave any out.

And remember, all of the teams that you just mentioned are going to Denver. Madlax is going to watch those teams on their TV set, from their couch in DC. Madlax has two teams at the 2024 level, totaling almost 60 players, and you don't have enough players to field a single team of 15 kids for the WSYL. That's, plain and simple, criminal! That's because your entire team is DC Kindergarten holdbacks, which means all the players should be at minimum 2023's. But then, we can't forget about the reclassed players like the 6'1" 15 year old from DC Dogs 2023, that you love to brag about so much. Yeah, the double holdbacks. We can't leave those out, now can we.

So, give us the names and numbers of all the holdbacks. We are waiting...

All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change

Still waiting....................................

This is when you come back with some excuse about not having the names and numbers. Still thinking?? OK. No prob. We have time. We''ll wait.......................

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

There's always the other divisions of HoCo as an option for all MD youngsters (2024 Elite, AA, A, B). I really only hear the LI donks complaining on the MD forum.

I got a better idea. Put your 15 year old with the other 15 year olds. And let the 12 year old's play the other 12 year olds, in what is suppose to be the 12 year old division. How bout that?

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.
Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

Original "math" poster here again. I really appreciate the reasoned responses to this. While I completely agree that at the 2024 level 9-12 months can be an advantage it is also within the bounds of what can happen within an age bracket. Having sons who play hockey as well (with horrible hockey birthdays but great lacrosse birthdays in an age based world) I understand. We are all aware that within a 12 month bracket at this age there can be huge differences in size and athleticism that no system can even up.

It seemed to me the conversation was beginning to go a little out of bounds with the whole 15 vs 12 arguments. Does that happen, to be honest I am not aware of any 15 yos playing in 2024 but I don't know this as a "fact" either way, but on average for the MD teams this is not the case. It was not that long ago that these kids were all playing age based and there were some really great games between the LI & MD teams. I will also readily admit that part of the purpose for my post was a defensive response to the concept that the MD 2024s were all a bunch of 15 yos with no lacrosse skills that were just winning because they were so much older. On average I don't believe that is the case.

Also agree on the market size and culture comment about LI vs MD.

Who says they have to go to traditional high schools. They could graduate early in the summer or they could go to a Prep academy like Culver or they could skip senior year sports if they have committed. These are real examples and are not made up. There are really young men turning 16 in their 8th grade year and will be playing in HoCo this year. Why is this so hard to believe. The Gonzage QB was 15 as a freshman and he turned 16 in November. Is it really so hard to believe there aren't a few young men 3-6 months older?

There's nothing in the water where giants grow for certain clubs and not for others.

Madlax is in your heads. Nobody cares about holdbacks except LI crybaby dads.

Madlax owns the island.

No way this scenario is accurate. They would be ineligible for senior year of high school.
Stop clinging to these weak Meanyexcuses.

While you might sound reasonable, holdbacks are much older in relation to other youth teams.. Take your June holdback player. He is ALWAYS one of oldest players on field in the holdback era. He is older by 3 months to oldest on age player ( which, how many are born on Sept 1 ? ) . Yet on average , the holdback will always be older by 6-9 months at minimum to the majority of players. Now that is ALL the time. In youth sports we are talking about boys usually pre puberty or in the beginnings of most growth periods . Older is usually an advantage. Or at least makes up for your shortcomings. There is a Reason 3rd graders think 4th graders are sooo much older. LOL. The whole holdback/reclass/prefirst thing is wrong in Youth sports. Common sense.

As far competition between LI and MD . Many factors, but a big one is that LI has a pop of 7.5 million with a strong lacrosse culture. MD has 7 million in entire state with Balt and certain areas of DC with strong lax culture. Years ago LI had a much bigger USL participation than MD, not sure what numbers are now.

Based on the immaturity of the message, I am assuming that you are just a kid, however, if you are in fact a parent, get over yourself. While I hope that it never happens to anybody, imagine how you would feel if some double-holdback steamrolled your kid and caused a horrific injury, would that change your attitude. I realize that the same injury could occur by being hit by an on-age, or smaller, kid as well, but my guess would be that you would not rationalize it that way. For what it's worth, I am not from LI, despite what you may think, people from all over the lacrosse community think that the MD system is ridiculous.

I know some late summer 2005 kids that are some of the better athletes in the 2024 elite division. I also know some late summer 2005 kids that frankly aren't that good. I think it is unfair to say that a late summer 2005 kid is better just because he may be slightly older. Most of the summer 2005 kids that I know didn't start playing club lacrosse until around the third grade. I happen to have a kid that has a late summer birthday (he missed the 9/1 cutoff by a couple of weeks). When he started playing lacrosse, he only played rec and he was the youngest kid on the field. He was constantly playing kids that were 1-2 years older than he was. When he got run over by older kids, it just made him tougher and practice that much harder. Even when he started playing club, it was still age based. So again he was playing kids that were 1-2 years older. But now they weren't just older, they were skilled too. Have you ever considered that some of the late summer 2005 kids that play 2024 are not better just because they may be older? Maybe they are better because of all those years they spent playing older kids before they eventually ended up on a grade based team? As I have posted before, if Long Island kids are having to play kids that are older than they are, they will get the last laugh come high school when everything levels out. So rather than hating the "holdbacks," just enjoy the ride and be thankful that your kid is getting better from having to play older kids! Team rankings should mean nothing at this age. It should be about having fun and getting better before high school.

No Baltimore kids in MIAA Conference are forgoing senior to go to Culver or
A prep academy. Maybe LI or DC.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.


If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.


The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

On Long Island, birthdays after 9/1 and before 12/31 are considered holdbacks, since they could/should be playing in the grade above, although that is a call that each parent must make at time of Kindergarten. Not sure if MD considers them holdbacks, but by definition, they are. The parents chooses (they have the option) to "hold them back".

Based on that and your comments above, the average MD "competitive" team is 70% holdbacks ("4 to 5 on age players"), and teams in "elite divisions, the numbers will skew even older."

So the MD teams that the LI teams play, have 2 - 3 on age players, who in all likelihood never see the field, against LI teams. Therefore, MD teams (that play LI teams) are 100% holdback teams. Said another way, they are 2023-age teams, playing down against 2024 LI on-age teams.

Thank you for confirming... that's exactly what I have known all along. There are no 2024-age players playing in the 2024 grade, in MD lacrosse. That's crazy-town. It makes absolutely no sense. It's amazing what profit and greed can do to a kids game. I wish you MD non-holdback parents, the best. You and your kids don't deserve this, and this is not what's best for the sport. Good luck.