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Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Most people don't call it a holdback, just those with school districts with a different starting date.

solution is age-based based on exact birth date.

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Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Changing the topic. Which six teams will qualify for the WSYL from the North region?

I do not know try posting on the NY thread where people care

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Changing the topic. Which six teams will qualify for the WSYL from the North region?




NY donk forgot he was trolling on a Mid Atlantic thread.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.

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Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Changing the topic. Which six teams will qualify for the WSYL from the North region?




NY donk forgot he was trolling on a Mid Atlantic thread.


Is that you, dirt?? You’re right (a first!). Obviously a screwup since there are no 12 or 13 year olds in 2024 lacrosse from MD who can qualify for the WSYL. There is no kid in 2024 MD lacrosse under the age of 14. And obviously many are 15. Absolutely none of the holdbacks qualify.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


Really ? Are you paying attention to your fellow MD parents who are sick and tired of holdback parents like yourself corrupting youth lacrosse. You are the sole snake from MD that deniies this cancer that has overcome MD club lacrosse. Every one of the kids on ML are 14 or will be very shortly, or already 15. In case you ever want to verify Long Islands lack of holdbacks, check out the WSYL. We will be there. You will not be there. No MD team will be there. Most LI teams will be there with 100% of their team, which means...total lack of any holdbacks. So take your preK holdbacks and your reclass holdbacks, and your 6’-something 15 year old would-be, should-be freshman in high school holdbacks, and keep on playing down a year or two, every single game. I commend the MD parents that recognize the safety concerns and injustice be done to the actual 2024 children, of which your kid is not. You, on the other hand are the lone wolf on BOTC that still tries to sell the lies. There is no one else.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.


So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.

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Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.


Hold on. This is the Madlax guy that has been stalking the LI thread for years, continually posting how Madlax is the best team at the age? And the team is completely holdbacks?! Are you kidding me.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.


OK, Madlax parent, I'm calling your bluff. Let's hear the names and numbers. Don't leave any out.

And remember, all of the teams that you just mentioned are going to Denver. Madlax is going to watch those teams on their TV set, from their couch in DC. Madlax has two teams at the 2024 level, totaling almost 60 players, and you don't have enough players to field a single team of 15 kids for the WSYL. That's, plain and simple, criminal! That's because your entire team is DC Kindergarten holdbacks, which means all the players should be at minimum 2023's. But then, we can't forget about the reclassed players like the 6'1" 15 year old from DC Dogs 2023, that you love to brag about so much. Yeah, the double holdbacks. We can't leave those out, now can we.

So, give us the names and numbers of all the holdbacks. We are waiting...

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.


So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.


And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.


So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.


And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.






NLF has the two most influential clubs as founding members, if they wanted to stop the madness, they could...and the people most negatively affected are the parents that finance these clubs...such ridiculous irony...The fact that HOCO created this mess does not relieve the other clubs from culpability.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.


What age cutoff do you think should be followed?

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.


So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.


And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.






NLF has the two most influential clubs as founding members, if they wanted to stop the madness, they could...and the people most negatively affected are the parents that finance these clubs...such ridiculous irony...The fact that HOCO created this mess does not relieve the other clubs from culpability.


Since the founding entity of the problem is actually the HoCo league, maybe MD should start there, instead of trying to get others to clean up your big mess. Here's what you are not understanding... The problem is far worse in MD than it is anywhere else. It does exist in area's like Mass on a fairly large scale, but still nothing like the plague that it is in MD. It's almost completely non-existent on LI. I know for a fact that two out of the three top 2024 teams have absolutely no holdbacks at all. And the third team has a few (but not half their team or more, like MD). So, it's really not much of a problem for people on LI, except when we go to MD, so nobody really cares that much. If a team doesn't like it, they simply don't go to MD tournaments. Problem solved. The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them. I don't see big LI clubs like 91 or Express initiating a change, since it's not that much of an issue here. I for one, wish they would, but I don't see that happening. It's going to have to come from the area's/teams that are suffering the most.

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"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change


Sad, but I'm sure very true.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


I disagree. This whole concept is nothing new. It's been going on for a very long time, so it's not about LI being a little late to the party. Holdbacks are a byproduct of prep schools, for the most part. Simply, there are no prep schools on LI. There is an abundance of prep schools in MD, MA, CT and other states, but none on LI. That's why the issue is most prevalent in those states and not LI.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.


OK, Madlax parent, I'm calling your bluff. Let's hear the names and numbers. Don't leave any out.

And remember, all of the teams that you just mentioned are going to Denver. Madlax is going to watch those teams on their TV set, from their couch in DC. Madlax has two teams at the 2024 level, totaling almost 60 players, and you don't have enough players to field a single team of 15 kids for the WSYL. That's, plain and simple, criminal! That's because your entire team is DC Kindergarten holdbacks, which means all the players should be at minimum 2023's. But then, we can't forget about the reclassed players like the 6'1" 15 year old from DC Dogs 2023, that you love to brag about so much. Yeah, the double holdbacks. We can't leave those out, now can we.

So, give us the names and numbers of all the holdbacks. We are waiting...






Still waiting....................................

This is when you come back with some excuse about not having the names and numbers. Still thinking?? OK. No prob. We have time. We''ll wait.......................

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.


I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.


Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.


OK, Madlax parent, I'm calling your bluff. Let's hear the names and numbers. Don't leave any out.

And remember, all of the teams that you just mentioned are going to Denver. Madlax is going to watch those teams on their TV set, from their couch in DC. Madlax has two teams at the 2024 level, totaling almost 60 players, and you don't have enough players to field a single team of 15 kids for the WSYL. That's, plain and simple, criminal! That's because your entire team is DC Kindergarten holdbacks, which means all the players should be at minimum 2023's. But then, we can't forget about the reclassed players like the 6'1" 15 year old from DC Dogs 2023, that you love to brag about so much. Yeah, the double holdbacks. We can't leave those out, now can we.

So, give us the names and numbers of all the holdbacks. We are waiting...






Still waiting....................................

This is when you come back with some excuse about not having the names and numbers. Still thinking?? OK. No prob. We have time. We''ll wait.......................




You screwed up. You thought you could get names and numbers off the club rosters that are posted on their website, just like Madlax does. Unfortunately for you, the LI clubs protect their kids from predators like you, so they don’t post them. Hmmm. Guess you didn’t think that one through. Time for plan B. You do have a plan B, right? I feel like I’m watching Home Alone and you are the stunad crooks, and I’m McCauley Calkin. This is too easy. Like taking candy from a baby.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.


LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?





Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.


LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?





Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.


There's always the other divisions of HoCo as an option for all MD youngsters (2024 Elite, AA, A, B). I really only hear the LI donks complaining on the MD forum.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?




You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?




You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.



Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.


LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?





Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.


There's always the other divisions of HoCo as an option for all MD youngsters (2024 Elite, AA, A, B). I really only hear the LI donks complaining on the MD forum.


I got a better idea. Put your 15 year old with the other 15 year olds. And let the 12 year old's play the other 12 year olds, in what is suppose to be the 12 year old division. How bout that?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.



LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?





Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.


There's always the other divisions of HoCo as an option for all MD youngsters (2024 Elite, AA, A, B). I really only hear the LI donks complaining on the MD forum.


I got a better idea. Put your 15 year old with the other 15 year olds. And let the 12 year old's play the other 12 year olds, in what is suppose to be the 12 year old division. How bout that?



Naw. His 15 year old does better against the 12 year olds, so he’ll stick with that.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?




You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.



Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.






Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

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There are no 15 year olds in the 7th grade. There's about a 9 month spread in most "hold back" cases at this level. The real hold backs are the 9 mth spread kids that change private schools and repeat 8th grade, while their teammates go on to high school. That isn't happening to the 2024 class, at this stage. Stop crying and making excuses, its embarrassing. Can we please move on?!

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This I s BOTC. Please take your reasoned and well thought out arguments elsewhere!!

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Why does BOTC call this the 2024 Forum? Because we play by grade year. If not it would be called the 13 and U forum, but it's not. Get a life.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.


All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change



You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?




You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.



Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.






Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.



I don’t think we are that far apart. You are saying the difference is on average 9 months and you think that is on the high side. I think it’s on the low side. Who is right? I’m sure we both are, depending upon the team. But we are close. Regardless, a team that is on average 9months older than another, during the adolescent years, is night and day. It’s huge. You sound like a rational individual, I have to assume that you agree that 9 months, during the prepubertal/puberty/postpuberty years is enormous. But what you aren’t taking into consideration at all is the double holdback. Admittedly there aren’t that many but there are some. How much of a difference can that double holdback make, even if it is just one player? It can be enormous. Seventh graders are for the most part still pre-pubescent. 9th graders for the most part aren’t. It’s easily a difference of 8” in height and 70 lbs in weight. How much of an impact can just one player have at this grade? I will tell you because I have seen it plenty of times, it’s a huge impact, and it is dangerous. So when I say 1 to 2 year difference, that’s what I am referring to. You say 9 months. I say a year. We’re splitting hairs. It’s the same thing. Throw in the occasional double holdback, and I think we are very close to agreeing on the subject.

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Madlax is in your heads. Nobody cares about holdbacks except LI crybaby dads.

Madlax owns the island.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change


You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.
Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.


While you might sound reasonable, holdbacks are much older in relation to other youth teams.. Take your June holdback player. He is ALWAYS one of oldest players on field in the holdback era. He is older by 3 months to oldest on age player ( which, how many are born on Sept 1 ? ) . Yet on average , the holdback will always be older by 6-9 months at minimum to the majority of players. Now that is ALL the time. In youth sports we are talking about boys usually pre puberty or in the beginnings of most growth periods . Older is usually an advantage. Or at least makes up for your shortcomings. There is a Reason 3rd graders think 4th graders are sooo much older. LOL. The whole holdback/reclass/prefirst thing is wrong in Youth sports. Common sense.

As far competition between LI and MD . Many factors, but a big one is that LI has a pop of 7.5 million with a strong lacrosse culture. MD has 7 million in entire state with Balt and certain areas of DC with strong lax culture. Years ago LI had a much bigger USL participation than MD, not sure what numbers are now.

Re: Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.


The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.


The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.



This isn't accurate, as the kid would be ineligible to play his senior year of high school.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.


The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.



No way this scenario is accurate. They would be ineligible for senior year of high school.
Stop clinging to these weak Meanyexcuses.

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Original "math" poster here again. I really appreciate the reasoned responses to this. While I completely agree that at the 2024 level 9-12 months can be an advantage it is also within the bounds of what can happen within an age bracket. Having sons who play hockey as well (with horrible hockey birthdays but great lacrosse birthdays in an age based world) I understand. We are all aware that within a 12 month bracket at this age there can be huge differences in size and athleticism that no system can even up.

It seemed to me the conversation was beginning to go a little out of bounds with the whole 15 vs 12 arguments. Does that happen, to be honest I am not aware of any 15 yos playing in 2024 but I don't know this as a "fact" either way, but on average for the MD teams this is not the case. It was not that long ago that these kids were all playing age based and there were some really great games between the LI & MD teams. I will also readily admit that part of the purpose for my post was a defensive response to the concept that the MD 2024s were all a bunch of 15 yos with no lacrosse skills that were just winning because they were so much older. On average I don't believe that is the case.

Also agree on the market size and culture comment about LI vs MD.

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