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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49973 12/17/13 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's a potential problem with the very early commits we are seeing. The kids (and they are kids still) have an expectation both athletically and academically to continue to be a top prospect for the next 4 years of high school. Admit it or not, it is a lot of pressure for most to handle. When they leave high school the real pressure cooker starts. Division 1 athletics is a grind - and yes I know from personal experience. It is very rewarding but it is ultimately a full time job along with studies. So a kid who commits to a top school in 9th grade has 4 years that he has to "perform" because he is expected to as an early commit and then has to continue on an even bigger stage with better, stronger competition. Overall that's 8 years of a tough grind. I know some kids handle it fine, but I would think for others the idea of an early commit and "now I don't have to worry" is shortsighted. You have to ask yourself and your son " Are we committing just to say we committed or are we committing because the school, the program, the offer is everything we could hope for and more? Just one man's thoughts.


Amen.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49974 12/17/13 01:51 PM
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There are kids on "Every Team" that are older than the norm.

PAL / Town Teams at the youth level.

Club Teams at the youth level.

Middle School / JHS Teams.

Club Teams in the 7th and 8th grade.

JV and Varsity High School Teams.

HS Club Teams.

College Teams.

Are they all 'Cheaters" ? Are the parents who hold the child back from starting Kindergarden any different than the parents who hold the child back in the 9th grade? Are they Different than the parents who have their child do a Post Graduate Year at a Prep School? Are they different from the Parents who agree to have their child Redshirt in College?

Did Garden City have any holdbacks last Year? How about Ward Melville? I would bet that there are some boys at WM and GC who are holdbacks. What about Duke? Is Rob Pannell a cheater? Pannell did a PG year after HS and Redshirted at Cornell, Did Cornell Cheat? Is Pannell a Cheater? Did he take the spot of another kid?

This has been going on for a very long time. Starting school late, switching from public to private after 9th grade, PGing and redshirting have all been going on for as long as I can remember.

My kids are in the grade that the School District says they should be in but when the time comes maybe I will consider one of the options available.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49975 12/17/13 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Just heard that a Dukes/Triple H 2017 M/FO player committed to Penn, or at leaast to the admissions process. So the Ivies are active.


Add another true 2017 to that list as well. From well known club and HS.

Details to follow. Announcement will be made as per Penn's discretion.


Guy..
You have been hinting about this for days, every post lends a bit more info. No one cares! When the time comes, please let us all know so we'll know what a lunatic you are.


do you have anything positive to add? if not; keep your anonymous negativity to yourself...always the same disgruntled keyboard tough guys with the same crappy attitudes...give it a break already.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49976 12/17/13 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's a potential problem with the very early commits we are seeing. The kids (and they are kids still) have an expectation both athletically and academically to continue to be a top prospect for the next 4 years of high school. Admit it or not, it is a lot of pressure for most to handle. When they leave high school the real pressure cooker starts. Division 1 athletics is a grind - and yes I know from personal experience. It is very rewarding but it is ultimately a full time job along with studies. So a kid who commits to a top school in 9th grade has 4 years that he has to "perform" because he is expected to as an early commit and then has to continue on an even bigger stage with better, stronger competition. Overall that's 8 years of a tough grind. I know some kids handle it fine, but I would think for others the idea of an early commit and "now I don't have to worry" is shortsighted. You have to ask yourself and your son " Are we committing just to say we committed or are we committing because the school, the program, the offer is everything we could hope for and more? Just one man's thoughts.



That is a very thoughtful post. Thank you. Also, look at the math from high above, which is hard to do if your family is in the throat of this stuff. Lacrosse has a 12.6 allocation of scholarships over about 45 roster spots. That is not too impressive and is a worse percentage than women's lacrosse and other NCAA sports. Seems to me the jackpot is getting admitted to a UPenn or the like. And for any kid and his family, I salute their accomplishment. But with the Ivy league schools, is that happening for a 2017? No. The kid is committing to apply for admission to UPenn in 3 years. I get that if he meets the requirements he will get in with certainty or more certainty than some other kid with near perfect grades, and that is a great win. I would say that if a kid is in distress to perform well to meet the UPenn standard in 3 years, he has less a stress and uncertainty if he does meet them when he gets there if the lacrosse coach wants him. That is nothing compared to the stress and uncertainty of the zillion perfect kids out there with perfect grades and student leadership activities who will compete for finite spots among perfect kids in 3 years.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49978 12/17/13 02:40 PM
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Do you really think that if you moved the recruiting deadline back to the summer before your senior year, you would all of a sudden remove all stress and pressure to perform throughout high school? Whether it's an early commit having to work hard to live up to expectations or it's a freshman working hard to get noticed, the kid has to work hard no matter what if he wants to play D1 ball. He has to work just as hard in the weight room, on the field and in the classroom, with or without a commit. A true athlete is always pushing himself, commit or not. So sorry, I don't buy your argument that early recruiting is detrimental due to pressure.

It also seems like many people think that parents of early commits are complete morons who have no care whatsoever about their child's future. Do you really think they allowed their child to commit to UNC, UVA, Bucknell, etc., without thinking about programs, fit, money, and so on? Seriously? How could a kid commit to Bucknell and you suggest anything other than a kids academic long term future was considered? And most I'm sure, if not everyone of these 2017 commits, probably had more than one offer in front of them. So suggesting they jumped at the first school to offer probably isn't accurate either. And the reality is, there is only one way to curb early commits anyways, more scholarship money. It will never happen, but the reason basketball and football players can wait and take their time is that they know all offers are full. Sure, football coaches will offer freshman, but that's more to be able to say "Hey, we loved you from the start". Most commits are juniors and seniors. Basically, until the pie gets big enough that no one has to fight over the crumbs, people will continue to take the security for their children.

As for reclassifying, it's 50/50 whining and legit. Club ball should 100% age based, something akin to AAA hockey. But showcases should be grad based as kids do go to prep school and also start school late for various reasons. I do have to say I find it a bit odd that kids want to play varsity lacrosse as a freshman, or even 8th grader in some cases, but chooses to play below their age level during club ball. I know kids who have dropped down after reclassifying and unfortunately I think it stems their development. It's like playing in the back yard with a 5 year old, how much do you benefit from that? Yeah you look awesome, but did you get any better by toying with younger kids? Of course not. You could still grad when you want to, and look awesome at Jake Reed too, but also still get challenged during the summer and also keep things fair for those how spent thousands of dollars. It should be similar to hockey, age based minor hockey until junior. Some will go straight to college after high school at 18, others might play junior for a few years, whatever works for each individual.

That's my 2 cents…

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49991 12/17/13 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Do you really think that if you moved the recruiting deadline back to the summer before your senior year, you would all of a sudden remove all stress and pressure to perform throughout high school? Whether it's an early commit having to work hard to live up to expectations or it's a freshman working hard to get noticed, the kid has to work hard no matter what if he wants to play D1 ball. He has to work just as hard in the weight room, on the field and in the classroom, with or without a commit. A true athlete is always pushing himself, commit or not. So sorry, I don't buy your argument that early recruiting is detrimental due to pressure.

It also seems like many people think that parents of early commits are complete morons who have no care whatsoever about their child's future. Do you really think they allowed their child to commit to UNC, UVA, Bucknell, etc., without thinking about programs, fit, money, and so on? Seriously? How could a kid commit to Bucknell and you suggest anything other than a kids academic long term future was considered? And most I'm sure, if not everyone of these 2017 commits, probably had more than one offer in front of them. So suggesting they jumped at the first school to offer probably isn't accurate either. And the reality is, there is only one way to curb early commits anyways, more scholarship money. It will never happen, but the reason basketball and football players can wait and take their time is that they know all offers are full. Sure, football coaches will offer freshman, but that's more to be able to say "Hey, we loved you from the start". Most commits are juniors and seniors. Basically, until the pie gets big enough that no one has to fight over the crumbs, people will continue to take the security for their children.

As for reclassifying, it's 50/50 whining and legit. Club ball should 100% age based, something akin to AAA hockey. But showcases should be grad based as kids do go to prep school and also start school late for various reasons. I do have to say I find it a bit odd that kids want to play varsity lacrosse as a freshman, or even 8th grader in some cases, but chooses to play below their age level during club ball. I know kids who have dropped down after reclassifying and unfortunately I think it stems their development. It's like playing in the back yard with a 5 year old, how much do you benefit from that? Yeah you look awesome, but did you get any better by toying with younger kids? Of course not. You could still grad when you want to, and look awesome at Jake Reed too, but also still get challenged during the summer and also keep things fair for those how spent thousands of dollars. It should be similar to hockey, age based minor hockey until junior. Some will go straight to college after high school at 18, others might play junior for a few years, whatever works for each individual.

That's my 2 cents…


a valuable 2 cents..thanks

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49992 12/17/13 04:21 PM
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Great post.

I saw this on US Lacrosse website today, under tab marked "Proof of Age":
US Lacrosse is currently developing a comprehensive Age Verification program. Until the program has been fully developed this system is for event participation purposes ONLY.


If you are the parent of a PLAYER who is currently registered to participate in an event then please submit your Proof of Age using the tool below.

Tips to Uploading Proof of Ages:

•Proof of ages accepted are birth certificate, passport or state issued ID with a valid birthdate listed.
•File should not be more than 2MB in size
•You know your file has been uploaded correctly when a date appears in the “DATE ADDED” column



Once you have uploaded your Proof of Age documentation, it may take as long as 48 business hours to validate. A confirmation email will be sent once the proof of age has been validated.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact the Constituent Services Center at 410.235.6882 #102, or send us an e-mail at events@uslacrosse.org, Monday through Friday, 8:30 a.m. – 5:00 p.m. est.

If enforced, it may resolve age related concerns at the youth level. There's hope, but, as always, it's the details...

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Do you really think that if you moved the recruiting deadline back to the summer before your senior year, you would all of a sudden remove all stress and pressure to perform throughout high school? Whether it's an early commit having to work hard to live up to expectations or it's a freshman working hard to get noticed, the kid has to work hard no matter what if he wants to play D1 ball. He has to work just as hard in the weight room, on the field and in the classroom, with or without a commit. A true athlete is always pushing himself, commit or not. So sorry, I don't buy your argument that early recruiting is detrimental due to pressure.

It also seems like many people think that parents of early commits are complete morons who have no care whatsoever about their child's future. Do you really think they allowed their child to commit to UNC, UVA, Bucknell, etc., without thinking about programs, fit, money, and so on? Seriously? How could a kid commit to Bucknell and you suggest anything other than a kids academic long term future was considered? And most I'm sure, if not everyone of these 2017 commits, probably had more than one offer in front of them. So suggesting they jumped at the first school to offer probably isn't accurate either. And the reality is, there is only one way to curb early commits anyways, more scholarship money. It will never happen, but the reason basketball and football players can wait and take their time is that they know all offers are full. Sure, football coaches will offer freshman, but that's more to be able to say "Hey, we loved you from the start". Most commits are juniors and seniors. Basically, until the pie gets big enough that no one has to fight over the crumbs, people will continue to take the security for their children.

As for reclassifying, it's 50/50 whining and legit. Club ball should 100% age based, something akin to AAA hockey. But showcases should be grad based as kids do go to prep school and also start school late for various reasons. I do have to say I find it a bit odd that kids want to play varsity lacrosse as a freshman, or even 8th grader in some cases, but chooses to play below their age level during club ball. I know kids who have dropped down after reclassifying and unfortunately I think it stems their development. It's like playing in the back yard with a 5 year old, how much do you benefit from that? Yeah you look awesome, but did you get any better by toying with younger kids? Of course not. You could still grad when you want to, and look awesome at Jake Reed too, but also still get challenged during the summer and also keep things fair for those how spent thousands of dollars. It should be similar to hockey, age based minor hockey until junior. Some will go straight to college after high school at 18, others might play junior for a few years, whatever works for each individual.

That's my 2 cents…

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #49994 12/17/13 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Do you really think that if you moved the recruiting deadline back to the summer before your senior year, you would all of a sudden remove all stress and pressure to perform throughout high school? Whether it's an early commit having to work hard to live up to expectations or it's a freshman working hard to get noticed, the kid has to work hard no matter what if he wants to play D1 ball. He has to work just as hard in the weight room, on the field and in the classroom, with or without a commit. A true athlete is always pushing himself, commit or not. So sorry, I don't buy your argument that early recruiting is detrimental due to pressure.

It also seems like many people think that parents of early commits are complete morons who have no care whatsoever about their child's future. Do you really think they allowed their child to commit to UNC, UVA, Bucknell, etc., without thinking about programs, fit, money, and so on? Seriously? How could a kid commit to Bucknell and you suggest anything other than a kids academic long term future was considered? And most I'm sure, if not everyone of these 2017 commits, probably had more than one offer in front of them. So suggesting they jumped at the first school to offer probably isn't accurate either. And the reality is, there is only one way to curb early commits anyways, more scholarship money. It will never happen, but the reason basketball and football players can wait and take their time is that they know all offers are full. Sure, football coaches will offer freshman, but that's more to be able to say "Hey, we loved you from the start". Most commits are juniors and seniors. Basically, until the pie gets big enough that no one has to fight over the crumbs, people will continue to take the security for their children.

As for reclassifying, it's 50/50 whining and legit. Club ball should 100% age based, something akin to AAA hockey. But showcases should be grad based as kids do go to prep school and also start school late for various reasons. I do have to say I find it a bit odd that kids want to play varsity lacrosse as a freshman, or even 8th grader in some cases, but chooses to play below their age level during club ball. I know kids who have dropped down after reclassifying and unfortunately I think it stems their development. It's like playing in the back yard with a 5 year old, how much do you benefit from that? Yeah you look awesome, but did you get any better by toying with younger kids? Of course not. You could still grad when you want to, and look awesome at Jake Reed too, but also still get challenged during the summer and also keep things fair for those how spent thousands of dollars. It should be similar to hockey, age based minor hockey until junior. Some will go straight to college after high school at 18, others might play junior for a few years, whatever works for each individual.

That's my 2 cents…


a valuable 2 cents..thanks


No where was it stated that the kids who don't commit don't have pressure or that parents of committed kids jump at the first offer. I do agree that admission wise kids who commit have a leg up on the other non-athletes as far as acceptance. However, the point is putting the pressure of school decision and acceptance on a 14 year old is a bit much. I am aware of the caliber of play of the early LI commits and they are well deserved and no where did it say they jumped at the first offer. If they are happy, I am happy for them. You made some very valid points, your two cents worth, but misread some points of the other post.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
CageSage #50007 12/17/13 08:16 PM
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I read in another thread where the [lacrosse]'s Sporting Goods Tournament of Champions is requiring birth certificates to enforce age restrictions. Couple youth age restrictions with 4yr limitations for HS players and you will go a long way toward resolving reclassing issues.

It would neither prevent the kindergarten holdbacks, nor the 8th grade reclassers, but it would eliminate some advantages. Right now, an old 4th grader would still play with his classmates. Age restrictions would force him to play with the 5th grade teams. Additionally, many reclassed 8th graders play JV (or varsity) to continue their development. If these players were forced to play another year of youth, it would make this a less attractive option.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
VaLaxDad #50011 12/17/13 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by VaLaxDad
I read in another thread where the [lacrosse]'s Sporting Goods Tournament of Champions is requiring birth certificates to enforce age restrictions. Couple youth age restrictions with 4yr limitations for HS players and you will go a long way toward resolving reclassing issues.

It would neither prevent the kindergarten holdbacks, nor the 8th grade reclassers, but it would eliminate some advantages. Right now, an old 4th grader would still play with his classmates. Age restrictions would force him to play with the 5th grade teams. Additionally, many reclassed 8th graders play JV (or varsity) to continue their development. If these players were forced to play another year of youth, it would make this a less attractive option.



In the end, it really won't matter as far a recruiting goes because at the college level the coaches are still going to recruit the oldest players for their freshman class. Additionally, I will predict there will be more red shirts and pgs like the old days. It's not like the top colleges will fill their freshman classes with younger kids. They'll just say we want you if you pg.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #50012 12/17/13 10:28 PM
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What's the difference between the stress of picking a university and picking a prep school? Not a whole lot and 14 year olds go through it all the time. You have to go on campus visits, do interviews, fill out applications, write essays, take tests, deal with financial aid and even worry about the lacrosse aspect. Personally I think it's the parents that determine how stressful the decision is. If you treat the situation like it's a life and death decision, so will the kid. If you take it in stride, so will the kid. And don't forget, there are positives to the situation as well. I think it's pretty cool that 14 year olds are thinking of their future and have the goal to attend university. Could be a lot worse.


Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #50016 12/18/13 10:29 AM
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I don't understand your point. Reading through these threads, most posters are upset with reclassed 16yo competing with 14 yo son for an opportunity to play D1 lacrosse. Me too. Frankly, the system as it is rewards the older, reclassed kid with little downside other than cost. Enforcing age restrictions at the youth level, thereby forcing older kids to play out of class, makes kindergarten holdbacks a little more painful-no friends on team, car pools for Mom, or social hour with fellow parents at tourneys. 4yr HS restriction would curb reclassers by forcing another year of youth ball. Choosing 2-3 practices a week and higher costs for a year of physical growth over 5 practices, better competition and coaching becomes a much more difficult decision.

It is not perfect, but it would be a start.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by VaLaxDad
I read in another thread where the [lacrosse]'s Sporting Goods Tournament of Champions is requiring birth certificates to enforce age restrictions. Couple youth age restrictions with 4yr limitations for HS players and you will go a long way toward resolving reclassing issues.

It would neither prevent the kindergarten holdbacks, nor the 8th grade reclassers, but it would eliminate some advantages. Right now, an old 4th grader would still play with his classmates. Age restrictions would force him to play with the 5th grade teams. Additionally, many reclassed 8th graders play JV (or varsity) to continue their development. If these players were forced to play another year of youth, it would make this a less attractive option.



In the end, it really won't matter as far a recruiting goes because at the college level the coaches are still going to recruit the oldest players for their freshman class. Additionally, I will predict there will be more red shirts and pgs like the old days. It's not like the top colleges will fill their freshman classes with younger kids. They'll just say we want you if you pg.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
VaLaxDad #50018 12/18/13 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by VaLaxDad
I don't understand your point. Reading through these threads, most posters are upset with reclassed 16yo competing with 14 yo son for an opportunity to play D1 lacrosse. Me too. Frankly, the system as it is rewards the older, reclassed kid with little downside other than cost. Enforcing age restrictions at the youth level, thereby forcing older kids to play out of class, makes kindergarten holdbacks a little more painful-no friends on team, car pools for Mom, or social hour with fellow parents at tourneys. 4yr HS restriction would curb reclassers by forcing another year of youth ball. Choosing 2-3 practices a week and higher costs for a year of physical growth over 5 practices, better competition and coaching becomes a much more difficult decision.

It is not perfect, but it would be a start.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by VaLaxDad
I read in another thread where the [lacrosse]'s Sporting Goods Tournament of Champions is requiring birth certificates to enforce age restrictions. Couple youth age restrictions with 4yr limitations for HS players and you will go a long way toward resolving reclassing issues.

It would neither prevent the kindergarten holdbacks, nor the 8th grade reclassers, but it would eliminate some advantages. Right now, an old 4th grader would still play with his classmates. Age restrictions would force him to play with the 5th grade teams. Additionally, many reclassed 8th graders play JV (or varsity) to continue their development. If these players were forced to play another year of youth, it would make this a less attractive option.



In the end, it really won't matter as far a recruiting goes because at the college level the coaches are still going to recruit the oldest players for their freshman class. Additionally, I will predict there will be more red shirts and pgs like the old days. It's not like the top colleges will fill their freshman classes with younger kids. They'll just say we want you if you pg.


My point is that all those measures will even the playing field for entering freshman in high school. Just be careful what you wish for. Just remember that for those with late birthdays that fall AFTER they enter high school, let's say Aug-Nov, they will be a 17 yr old college freshman. College coaches will bypass the 13/14 yr old h.s. freshman when they become seniors all day long. We will hear more of "we're interested but you're just too young, do a pg yr and the spot is yours".

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
VaLaxDad #50021 12/18/13 11:16 AM
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VaLaxDad,

Thank you for your post. To add another conclusion to what you wrote: the coaches in this sport are dumb to extrapolate that the same 16 year old will dominate over a 14 year old today will dominate as a 20 year old against 18 year olds...or a 23 year old versus 21 is a big mistake. At 14 you are not close to growing or putting on a frame. At 16 it gets closer, and at 18 you are what you will be. At 18 and up it is all about hitting the weights and other training to get stronger and faster with the body you have.

I don't think it is a mistake to generalize the held back a grade kids at 16 are generally athletic advantage motivated. Those kids tend to be undersized for their sports and lock down an immediate advantage to compete against kids 12-23 months younger during a growth phase for boys. That disappears over time. In 5 years with UNC and UVa you will be see 6 players at 5'7, 150 kids from Maryland or New England prep schools throwing the ball around and running away from poles and losing. Danowski is likely laughing and encouraging the parent inquiries he gets to those to programs.

Generally all the early commits have great stick skills relative to their peers now, most of whom are behind only because of age. Stick skills you can get, that is just hours of practice. Size is non negotiable and changes everything. When we someday see these kids playing in college, who do you want odds on? A first team midfield at Duke with a fleet of 6'2 200+lb hybrids that can run and have stick skills caught up, or a fleet of kids who were 5'7 130lb early commits who became 5'8 150lb prep school yesterday heroes? Yes, Duke will miss a Colin Munro, but they will also get 5 early commits who are not that one special player every year. You don't win that way.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
Anonymous #50023 12/18/13 11:23 AM
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Maybe an unit ended consequence for a minority, but the proposal is still an improvement to the status quo. This is a non issue in DMV, because school cut off is Sept 30.
All in all better for a 17 yo to compete with an 18 yo than a 14 yo with an 16 yo.

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