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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The WSYL, past winners were teams. A team that started in September and finished in July. In this Lax world that’s the definition of a TEAM. Do you follow me so far? This isn’t brain surgery. Now if there was a state vs state all star game that would be a different topic. Not a bad idea, but that’s not this topic. Can you imagine the WSYL final being a state all star team vs an actual team. Think about that. Let’s take 4 great kids from 7 different teams to create the ultimate team to compete. We can meet up the night before so all the kids can introduce themselves to each other. If this happens, this event will become a farce.

The WSYL rules contradict themselves.

- All players must compete with their team or program on a REGULAR BASIS.

- Minimum requirements.....2 tournaments. Look at that, two one day tournaments at DE turf on the same weekend in March for the kids to introduce themselves to one another. The weekend before the qualifier

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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WSYL should change its system, and limit the radius to 15-25 miles. The idea of super teams for youth lacrosse is ridiculous, but the WSYL has turned a blind eye - and I really can't understand why and why limiting the radius would hurt the event. Having said that, I don't know that it would change the greater New York City area's dominance, as the huge population pool to draw from will always work in their favor because there will be more great kids to choose from compared to rural areas. WYSL should create population districts, analogous to Little League, but make them a bit bigger than Little League since lacrosse isn't as popular throughout the country. Rural areas would have a bigger population base to draw from, which would even things out nationwide. The system right now is broken and incentivizes terrible behavior which involves kids. WSYL needs to be a leader and step up.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
WSYL should change its system, and limit the radius to 15-25 miles. The idea of super teams for youth lacrosse is ridiculous, but the WSYL has turned a blind eye - and I really can't understand why and why limiting the radius would hurt the event. Having said that, I don't know that it would change the greater New York City area's dominance, as the huge population pool to draw from will always work in their favor because there will be more great kids to choose from compared to rural areas. WYSL should create population districts, analogous to Little League, but make them a bit bigger than Little League since lacrosse isn't as popular throughout the country. Rural areas would have a bigger population base to draw from, which would even things out nationwide. The system right now is broken and incentivizes terrible behavior which involves kids. WSYL needs to be a leader and step up.

I agree, but 15-25 is too small for some areas for lacrosse. I dont know what the answer is, but it probably isnt mileage, 50 from the center of LI still covers almost all of LI, and much of Conn, Northern NJ, and Westchester. I grew up on LI, that is a massive population pool to choose 25 players from. I live in the Charlottesville area now, some kids at the higher level need to travel that far to get to a team. There is no way they could compete with the ALL - LI plus team.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
WSYL should change its system, and limit the radius to 15-25 miles. The idea of super teams for youth lacrosse is ridiculous, but the WSYL has turned a blind eye - and I really can't understand why and why limiting the radius would hurt the event. Having said that, I don't know that it would change the greater New York City area's dominance, as the huge population pool to draw from will always work in their favor because there will be more great kids to choose from compared to rural areas. WYSL should create population districts, analogous to Little League, but make them a bit bigger than Little League since lacrosse isn't as popular throughout the country. Rural areas would have a bigger population base to draw from, which would even things out nationwide. The system right now is broken and incentivizes terrible behavior which involves kids. WSYL needs to be a leader and step up.

I agree, but 15-25 is too small for some areas for lacrosse. I dont know what the answer is, but it probably isnt mileage, 50 from the center of LI still covers almost all of LI, and much of Conn, Northern NJ, and Westchester. I grew up on LI, that is a massive population pool to choose 25 players from. I live in the Charlottesville area now, some kids at the higher level need to travel that far to get to a team. There is no way they could compete with the ALL - LI plus team.

They can change the radius for different areas. They allow 200 miles for Canadian teams. That covers Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec. Probably easy to come up with 25 good players from those 10mil + people.

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Gerrymandering on BOTC. So typical.

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Tell me about 2025 VLC? Are they in the same category as some of the elite Maryland teams?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Tell me about 2025 VLC? Are they in the same category as some of the elite Maryland teams?

Short answer is no. VLC 2025 is not the same category as the better teams in the area. In the Dc area, Madlax, Next Level, and DC Express are all significantly better. And that’s before getting to the MD teams like Hawks, Crabs, Team 91, etc. that are all much better. VLC 2026 is pretty decent and can compete at least, but VLC 2025 will get torched by any team in the HoCo elite division.

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The whole WSYL thing seems like a farce and a money grab to me. All this energy should be put into the regular travel teams.

PS - Thanks for all the "sorry your son didn't make the team better luck next year" encouragement I expect to hear shortly!

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Re: WSYL: I don't understand why clubs feel the need to band together. Go with kids who have been with you through thick and thin. I think the WSYL itself is cool, but it is the conniving by the clubs which is a waste of time.
Will be interesting to see from Maryland shows up - with their own clubs (speaks to who has holdbacks), and who forms mega-teams (speaks to who just wants to win as opposed to developing their players). Does anyone know who is actually going to send a team to the WSYL regional?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Tell me about 2025 VLC? Are they in the same category as some of the elite Maryland teams?

Short answer is no. VLC 2025 is not the same category as the better teams in the area. In the Dc area, Madlax, Next Level, and DC Express are all significantly better. And that’s before getting to the MD teams like Hawks, Crabs, Team 91, etc. that are all much better. VLC 2026 is pretty decent and can compete at least, but VLC 2025 will get torched by any team in the HoCo elite division.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous]Tell me about 2025 VLC? Are they in the same category as some of the elite Maryland teams?

Cavaliers 2025 beat VLC 2025 every time they played them, if that says anything. All the boys from Cavaliers have moved on to stronger clubs.

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Re: WSYL: I don't understand why clubs feel the need to band together. Go with kids who have been with you through thick and thin. I think the WSYL itself is cool, but it is the conniving by the clubs which is a waste of time.
Will be interesting to see from Maryland shows up - with their own clubs (speaks to who has holdbacks), and who forms mega-teams (speaks to who just wants to win as opposed to developing their players). Does anyone know who is actually going to send a team to the WSYL regional?

Why does the conversation always turn to "hold backs"? No, just because a team doesn't go to a money grab tournament doesn't necessarily mean they have hold backs. But it may mean that your son needs to hit the wall so they can play on a team that does.

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Does the WSYL equate to anything but a fun weekend? Is it considered a Showcase?

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It's amazing- my sons team went out there a few years ago and it was the best tournament we've ever been too. Swag as you advance, skills contests, Connor Kelly was there, championship was televised, it's a youth event on steroids

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Re: WSYL: I don't understand why clubs feel the need to band together. Go with kids who have been with you through thick and thin. I think the WSYL itself is cool, but it is the conniving by the clubs which is a waste of time.
Will be interesting to see from Maryland shows up - with their own clubs (speaks to who has holdbacks), and who forms mega-teams (speaks to who just wants to win as opposed to developing their players). Does anyone know who is actually going to send a team to the WSYL regional?

At the 2026 level, isnt Express is doing what you claim MD teams do?

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Does anyone have a list of the WSYL U14 regional qualifier teams?

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2025 Cannons Gold

302 Lacrosse 2025

3d Garden State 2025 AA

Breakers 2025 Blue

Building Blocks LC U14

Jersey Express 2025

Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

Madlax Monuments

Top Caliber

Tri-State 2025

True Annapolis 2025

True PA 2025

VLC Black Ops

Zingos 2025 Black

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
2025 Cannons Gold

302 Lacrosse 2025

3d Garden State 2025 AA

Breakers 2025 Blue

Building Blocks LC U14

Jersey Express 2025

Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

Madlax Monuments

Top Caliber

Tri-State 2025

True Annapolis 2025

True PA 2025

VLC Black Ops

Zingos 2025 Black

Top 4 to advance:

- Madlax Monuments
- Building Blocks LC U14
- VLC Black Ops
- Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

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Interesting, what about the Hawks? Did Team Maryland combine with Top Caliber or did Top Caliber's own team go it alone? No one from the Philly area? Jersey Express was formerly Tribal SJ, they are a good team.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
2025 Cannons Gold

302 Lacrosse 2025

3d Garden State 2025 AA

Breakers 2025 Blue

Building Blocks LC U14

Jersey Express 2025

Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

Madlax Monuments

Top Caliber

Tri-State 2025

True Annapolis 2025

True PA 2025

VLC Black Ops

Zingos 2025 Black

Top 4 to advance:

- Madlax Monuments
- Building Blocks LC U14
- VLC Black Ops
- Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black


I think more than 4 will advance. More like 6 or 7 based on previous years. Maybe add in Jersey Express, Cannons and True Annapolis as potential contenders.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
2025 Cannons Gold

302 Lacrosse 2025

3d Garden State 2025 AA

Breakers 2025 Blue

Building Blocks LC U14

Jersey Express 2025

Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

Madlax Monuments

Top Caliber

Tri-State 2025

True Annapolis 2025

True PA 2025

VLC Black Ops

Zingos 2025 Black

Top 4 to advance:

- Madlax Monuments
- Building Blocks LC U14
- VLC Black Ops
- Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black


I think more than 4 will advance. More like 6 or 7 based on previous years. Maybe add in Jersey Express, Cannons and True Annapolis as potential contenders.

Only 4 have advanced from the East since 2017. WSYL has been pulling extra teams from North Region because they have by far the most teams in the qualifiers. Historically;
- East 4
- West 5
- Central 2
- South 2
- International 4
- North 7

I suspect that Jersey Express, Cannons, and True Annapolis will be in the mix, but each of the 4 teams I think will advance are combined/all-star teams.

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Were any of the previous International teams truly international or just all star teams of international descent? I wonder because if they were truly International then they might not yet be allowed in the country which could open up a couple more spots for this region.

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A guess at the HoCo Divisional alignment using Fall 2020 Results, USCL team rankings, wins vs. USCL Top 100 teams, 2019 Division alignment, and the WAG principle. Teams are not in any particular order within a division.

[b]2021 Spring Season[/b]
Team & USCL Rank [Fall Record] and H2H Wins Other Top USCL 100 Wins Spring Results
2025 Elite
1 #1 Team 91 MD [7-0] #9 FCA, Madlax Capital, #15 DC Express Black #7 Sweetlax FL, #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #25 NXT Black, #39 West Coast Starz Gold,
2 #5 Annapolis Hawks [4-0-1] #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #25 ADVNC, #27 Denver Elite Silver, #39 West Coast Starz Gold
3 #4 Madlax Capital [11-2] MD Roughriders, #14 Next Level Blue, #37 Crabs, VLC
4 #15 DC Express Black [11-3] #4 Team 91 LI, #11 Crabs #24 Texas Mustangs, #34 True Atlantic, #40 Leading Edge, #53 Texas Oilers, #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness
5 #9 FCA [8-1-1] #37 Crabs #20 Team Ten, #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #26 True Midwest, #39 West Coast Starz Gold, #40 Leading Edge, #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness, #92 Top Caliber
6 #14 Next Level Blue [9-3] Kooper's, DC Express Black, Looney's, True Annapolis Green #24 Texas Mustangs, #40 Leading Edge, #53 Texas Oilers
7 Cannons Select Gold [4-0] True Annapolis White
8 #12 True Annapolis Green [8-1] #37 Crabs, VLC #55 Omnia, #18 West Coast Starz Navy, #91 True PA Black, #52 True Pittsburgh,


2025 AAA
1 #37 Crabs [2-4] Looney's #92 Top Caliber L vs Zingos 3/7 Play Day
2 #58 Koopers [2-2] Hawks Black #82 True Utah
3 #28 Zingos Black [7-1-1] #60 PLC Gold #30 Orange Crush, #31 Brotherly Love, #72 Philly Freedom Red, #85 Tri-State, #88 Rising Sons Navy W vs Crabs 3/7 Play Day
4 Greene Turtle
5 #60 PLC Gold [2-5] Hawks Black #44 Mad Dog
6 #50 VLC [3-6] Looney's
7 Sidewinders [3-0] Hawks Black
8 #92 Top Caliber [6-3] #28 Zingos Black


2025 AA
1 Breakers Blue
2 HLC
3 AYLC Bay Raiders [3-0] True Baltimore
4 Rock A
5 Looney's [0-6-1]
6 FLC
7 Next Level Red #89 Southshore
8 #84 Team Maryland LC [4-2] #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness, #89 Southshore


2025 A
1 Cannons Select Blue
2 Madlax DMV
3 Hard Lax Elite [0-3]
4 Roughriders
5 Breakers Orange
6 Mesa MD [2-1] #78 PLC Black
7 HoCo Pink
8 Annapolis Hawks Black [2-2] W vs True Baltimore at Spring Classic
9 True Baltimore [1-2] [0-4] at Atlantic Spring Classic


2025 B
1 True Annapolis White [0-3] W vs True Balt @ Atlantic Spring Classic
2 Rock B
3 Blue Claws
4 HoCo Black
5 #78 PLC Black [1-6] # 99 Platform Academy Black
6 Olney Bears
7 Baltimore Elite Lax
8 Ville Lacrosse
9 Zingos Blue [size:14pt][/size]

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
A guess at the HoCo Divisional alignment using Fall 2020 Results, USCL team rankings, wins vs. USCL Top 100 teams, 2019 Division alignment, and the WAG principle. Teams are not in any particular order within a division.

[b]2021 Spring Season[/b]
Team & USCL Rank [Fall Record] and H2H Wins Other Top USCL 100 Wins Spring Results
2025 Elite
1 #1 Team 91 MD [7-0] #9 FCA, Madlax Capital, #15 DC Express Black #7 Sweetlax FL, #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #25 NXT Black, #39 West Coast Starz Gold,
2 #5 Annapolis Hawks [4-0-1] #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #25 ADVNC, #27 Denver Elite Silver, #39 West Coast Starz Gold
3 #4 Madlax Capital [11-2] MD Roughriders, #14 Next Level Blue, #37 Crabs, VLC
4 #15 DC Express Black [11-3] #4 Team 91 LI, #11 Crabs #24 Texas Mustangs, #34 True Atlantic, #40 Leading Edge, #53 Texas Oilers, #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness
5 #9 FCA [8-1-1] #37 Crabs #20 Team Ten, #22 Thunder LB3 Blue, #26 True Midwest, #39 West Coast Starz Gold, #40 Leading Edge, #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness, #92 Top Caliber
6 #14 Next Level Blue [9-3] Kooper's, DC Express Black, Looney's, True Annapolis Green #24 Texas Mustangs, #40 Leading Edge, #53 Texas Oilers
7 Cannons Select Gold [4-0] True Annapolis White
8 #12 True Annapolis Green [8-1] #37 Crabs, VLC #55 Omnia, #18 West Coast Starz Navy, #91 True PA Black, #52 True Pittsburgh,


2025 AAA
1 #37 Crabs [2-4] Looney's #92 Top Caliber L vs Zingos 3/7 Play Day
2 #58 Koopers [2-2] Hawks Black #82 True Utah
3 #28 Zingos Black [7-1-1] #60 PLC Gold #30 Orange Crush, #31 Brotherly Love, #72 Philly Freedom Red, #85 Tri-State, #88 Rising Sons Navy W vs Crabs 3/7 Play Day
4 Greene Turtle
5 #60 PLC Gold [2-5] Hawks Black #44 Mad Dog
6 #50 VLC [3-6] Looney's
7 Sidewinders [3-0] Hawks Black
8 #92 Top Caliber [6-3] #28 Zingos Black


2025 AA
1 Breakers Blue
2 HLC
3 AYLC Bay Raiders [3-0] True Baltimore
4 Rock A
5 Looney's [0-6-1]
6 FLC
7 Next Level Red #89 Southshore
8 #84 Team Maryland LC [4-2] #62 Richmond Hawks - Lyness, #89 Southshore


2025 A
1 Cannons Select Blue
2 Madlax DMV
3 Hard Lax Elite [0-3]
4 Roughriders
5 Breakers Orange
6 Mesa MD [2-1] #78 PLC Black
7 HoCo Pink
8 Annapolis Hawks Black [2-2] W vs True Baltimore at Spring Classic
9 True Baltimore [1-2] [0-4] at Atlantic Spring Classic


2025 B
1 True Annapolis White [0-3] W vs True Balt @ Atlantic Spring Classic
2 Rock B
3 Blue Claws
4 HoCo Black
5 #78 PLC Black [1-6] # 99 Platform Academy Black
6 Olney Bears
7 Baltimore Elite Lax
8 Ville Lacrosse
9 Zingos Blue [size:14pt][/size]

Do you really think HoCo will use ANY of this data?

No

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Where is DC Express Orange?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Where is DC Express Orange?
In the AA bracket

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BS. Sandbagging. They are going to run over everyone in AA.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
BS. Sandbagging. They are going to run over everyone in AA.

Is the Express Orange team that strong? AA is a pretty high division for a B team. That would actually be pretty impressive if a club in any grade year had their first team in Elite and their second team in AAA.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
2025 Cannons Gold

302 Lacrosse 2025

3d Garden State 2025 AA

Breakers 2025 Blue

Building Blocks LC U14

Jersey Express 2025

Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black

Madlax Monuments

Top Caliber

Tri-State 2025

True Annapolis 2025

True PA 2025

VLC Black Ops

Zingos 2025 Black

Top 4 to advance:

- Madlax Monuments
- Building Blocks LC U14
- VLC Black Ops
- Mad Dog NJ Boys 2025 Black


I think more than 4 will advance. More like 6 or 7 based on previous years. Maybe add in Jersey Express, Cannons and True Annapolis as potential contenders.

Only 4 have advanced from the East since 2017. WSYL has been pulling extra teams from North Region because they have by far the most teams in the qualifiers. Historically;
- East 4
- West 5
- Central 2
- South 2
- International 4
- North 7

I suspect that Jersey Express, Cannons, and True Annapolis will be in the mix, but each of the 4 teams I think will advance are combined/all-star teams.

I wouldnt think that there will be international teams this year so that'll open up spots.

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2025 Express Orange is solid

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W/E Results for HoCo Elite teams:

Next Level Blue 4-0 (Mad Dog, LI Express, Looney's, CLCA u14) + 22 GD
FCA 3-0 (LI Express, Leading Edge, DCE Black) +22 GD
91 MD 3-0 (Philly Freedom, True IL WS, Mad Dog) +29 GD
Cannons Gold 3-0 (CLCA u14, Looney's, VLC) +4 GD
DCE Black 2-1 (W vs Leading Edge & LI Express, L vs FCA) +3 GD
Madlax Capital 2-1 (W vs Hawks Green & Regulators, L vs WCS Gold), +5 Goal Differential
Hawks Green 1-2 (W vs WCS Gold, L vs Madlax Capital & Prime Time) -2 GD


I've seen that 91 is the team to beat at 2025 Elite, but based on the scores and observations at Spring Kickoff games, NL Blue and FCA are going to give them trouble. Even though they won, I heard that 91 did not look good vs Mad Dog (playing in their 6th game of the weekend) and MM was losing his mind and berating/belittling his players for the majority of the game (sidebar: how/why does anyone play for this guy?). I would not be surprised if 91 misses the playoffs in May. Not sure what is going on in Annapolis, but Hawks have beaten teams like the ones they played last weekend in the past. FCA appears to have strengthened their roster since last summer. NL Blue and DCE Black players were playing on multiple teams so likely running out of gas on Sunday. If Madlax can bring all of their out-of-area players to every game they along with DCE Black, NL Blue and FCA are likely top 4 in 2025 Elite. Should be a drama filled spring which I'm sure will be bantered about here.

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You're going to declare the top 4 as DCE, NL and FCA along with Madlax based off 1 weekend of Spring playdays. Wow! That's a big stretch. The 2025 Elite division of HoCo is so competitive this it is going to be a battle every weekend. 6 teams can win this year:
Team 91MD - until someone beats them still the team to beat.
Hawks - defending HoCo champs from 2 years ago, so always tough
Madlax - with the addition of out of state players very tough
FCA - continues to improve and has a legitimate shot.
NL - with their new 2024 players coming down will be in serious contention
DCE - same as NL with addition of 2024 players

No idea why anyone else would even want to be in this division. Crabs, Looneys, True, and Cannons, should run to AAA as these top 6 are crazy good. Watch them play, they all look like HS teams. All well coached and crazy talent. The team that's puts it together for the playoffs, stays healthy (probably the biggest key), and can win close games will win this division.

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They look like high school teams for a reason ...

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Understand what you are implying and though probably true, these boys really know how to play the game and would be still be young for Varsity. Say what you will about the coaching, good and bad, the boys are learning the game. Very impressed with this age group!

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Kids don’t have to play varsity as a freshman ! They probably shouldn’t...2025 parent and your right the class is strong on it’s own, let the 2024’s move on

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
BS. Sandbagging. They are going to run over everyone in AA.

Is the Express Orange team that strong? AA is a pretty high division for a B team. That would actually be pretty impressive if a club in any grade year had their first team in Elite and their second team in AAA.

That DCE team is made up of players that moved down from the DCE Elite team, the 3D-Maryland fold and some former Team Maryland. They won the fall league easily and should do the same this spring in AA.

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If you saw DC Express Orange play this spring, they are not sand bagging. They are in the appropriate division.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
If you saw DC Express Orange play this spring, they are not sand bagging. They are in the appropriate division.

Spring hasn’t happened yet.

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https://worldseriesofyouthlacrosse....quit-max-wsyl-il-13u-14u-world-rankings/

WSYL/IL 14U Preseason World Rankings:
1. Long Island Express (NY)
2. Team 91 Long Island (NY)
3. Madlax Capital (DMV)
4. Sweetlax FL (FL)
5. Eclipse (CT)
6. True IL 2025 Premier (IL)
7. Berserkers (CA)
8. NPL (WA/OR)
9. Igloo Northface (NY)
10. Prime Time 2025 (NY)
11. Sixers (CO)
12. Express North (CT)
13. Stealth (FL)
14. ADVNC Bayhawks (CA)
15. Building Blocks LC (NJ)
16. Orange Crush (NY)
17. Evolve (CAN)
18. Express North (CT)
19. 2Way (CT)
20. Jersey Express (NJ)
21. Mad Dog Black (NJ)
22. HP Mohicans (TX)
23. True MN 2025 AAA (MN)
24. CT Wolves (CT)
25. Cannons Gold (MD)

Watchlist: 302 Lacrosse (DE), Evolve BC (CAN), VLC Black Ops (VA), Zingos Black (MD), Breakers Blue (MD), Regulators (NY), Shore 2 Shore Hawks (NY), Legacy Lacrosse (NY)

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Anonymous
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Week 1:

FCA
Annapolis Hawks vs
Fri- 7:30 pm

True Annapolis Green vs
Looney's
Sat- 8:00 AM

Madlax Capital vs
Next Level Blue
Sat- 9:30 AM

Team 91 vs
Crabs
Sat- 11:00 AM

DC Express Black vs
Annapolis Hawks Green
Sat- 12:30 PM

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Re: Boys 2025 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Looks like True Annapolis 2025 had a good game against True Illinois last Saturday.. looks like it may have been a scrimmage...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBoCcqWj9BA

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