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What's Your View? Establishing a Regional Premier League
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On many threads on BOTC, you can find discussion on both the boys and girls side as to which team is tops in any given age group. The problem with the analysis is that many teams do not actually face each other on a regular basis so conclusions are drawn in some cases based on thirty minute mini-games during tournament knock-out rounds.

Maryland has led the way with the formation of their NPYLL league which attracts the very best teams in a series of age groups on the boys side. Expect that that NPYGLL on the girls side will gain similar interest.

BOTC believes that we have reached the point where a regional premier lacrosse league, based in the New [lacrosse] metropolitan area, is needed. This league would be a Spring League where the best boys and girls teams would have to apply and then be accepted to the league based on their competitive credentials.

Some of the logistics to be considered would include the months of competition (March/April/May), number of games per season, age groups, overlap with Junior Varsity and Varsity scholastic seasons, and the potential for a Fall Season.

BOTC would like to hear views from our community on this concept.

What's your view?

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My thought is that one of the great things about lacrosse right now is that it is not like soccer. It is still a spring/summer sport, with the spring focus on the school team, local town teams, or summer club team practices. Adding the extra expense and travel that would come with being a premier level team, well...i don't think lacrosse needs any more of that especially if the same club team would also have all the summer tournament commitments. Many kids also enjoy doing other spring sports, and fortunately the way lacrosse is set up now it is possible to still play on a competitive lax team while enjoying something else.

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Sage,

I think you know I've been a proponent of this type league being established here on LI. It would he great for all the organizations/kids to play weekly against tip competition. The team my son is on traveled last year all over against "top competion" only to find that it is right here on LI for his age group. As for the other poster saying it would cut into other sports or town teams, I disagree. This league can be set up to make sure the games are played on opposite days of the PAL leagues. If you happen to live in a town that doesn't have a rich tradition of lacrosse, and you are looking to play against the better kids this is the type of league that needs to be established. The town/friends thing is a little bit overrated. Once your son/daughter goes to college do you expect them to come home and be with their school buddies? Our experience in being a part of a travel team has allowed my son to gain the ability to make friends just about anywhere he goes. A trait I feel will serve him well once he is out in the "real world". I don't want my son "sheltered" to only his town. It doesn't have to be a year round thing; however, most of the better players do find themselves playing year-round. It's just a matter of whether or not both player and parent are committed to make the time for lacrosse and the other sports. I do understand this is not for everyone, which is why the NPYLL has approximately eight teams per division. The lacrosse clubs should find a way to get this done... It will only help all the boys.

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competitive travel league up to 8th grade in the spring (what the OBYLL should have become) premier league over the summer JV and Varsity, week night games with your club team that would not interfere with weekend tournaments

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Absolutely 100 percent for it. Games should be played on Saturday and Sunday nights in April and May so as not to conflict with school practice/games. 6-8 game season would probably work best. All the top teams on LI facing each other every week:

LI Express
91
fl$
True Blue
Gladiators
Jesters
Outlaws
Team Long Island
Havoc Dune Dawgs
Team Igloo

Just to name a few. My son is an 8th grader and I know how good the competition is. A premier league would only help the boys get better.

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Great idea. This would create some great competetion locally amongst the boys.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Absolutely 100 percent for it. Games should be played on Saturday and Sunday nights in April and May so as not to conflict with school practice/games. 6-8 game season would probably work best. All the top teams on LI facing each other every week:

LI Express
91
fl$
True Blue
Gladiators
Jesters
Outlaws
Team Long Island
Havoc Dune Dawgs
Team Igloo

Just to name a few. My son is an 8th grader and I know how good the competition is. A premier league would only help the boys get better.


What, no Turtles?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Absolutely 100 percent for it. Games should be played on Saturday and Sunday nights in April and May so as not to conflict with school practice/games. 6-8 game season would probably work best. All the top teams on LI facing each other every week:

LI Express
91
fl$
True Blue
Gladiators
Jesters
Outlaws
Team Long Island
Havoc Dune Dawgs
Team Igloo

Just to name a few. My son is an 8th grader and I know how good the competition is. A premier league would only help the boys get better.


What, no Turtles?


The person said LI Express, aren't the turtles express?? You mean the turtles are a separate thing from express?? And aren't all you turtle people screaming your too good for the normal 2017's?

More importunity, I think the league for LI would be awesome. Question is would all the above mentioned organizations join and play nice together?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Absolutely 100 percent for it. Games should be played on Saturday and Sunday nights in April and May so as not to conflict with school practice/games. 6-8 game season would probably work best. All the top teams on LI facing each other every week:

LI Express
91
fl$
True Blue
Gladiators
Jesters
Outlaws
Team Long Island
Havoc Dune Dawgs
Team Igloo

Just to name a few. My son is an 8th grader and I know how good the competition is. A premier league would only help the boys get better.


What, no Turtles?


The person said LI Express, aren't the turtles express?? You mean the turtles are a separate thing from express?? And aren't all you turtle people screaming your too good for the normal 2017's?

More importunity, I think the league for LI would be awesome. Question is would all the above mentioned organizations join and play nice together?


Turtles and Express = brothers from a different mother...

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don't forget riptide, sounds like a great idea!

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Never happen. Too much bad blood between some of these organizations.
The Express would never do it unless they could run it and make lots of money on it.

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Therein lies the problem. When will it not be about the organizations, but the kids???? I understand the organizations are about making their money. I have no problem with that; however, could they all just put aside their differences for a six to eight week period? We as parents should really put the pressure on our respective organizations to get something done........

Take for example the year 2019. If you were to look at the records from last summer of Team 91, LI Express, True Blue, Havoc Dune Dawgs, as well as a few other teams, they all pretty much had at least a 75% winning percentage. I think three of the four listed were probably at 90%. To me it's a no brainer. The best competition is right here on LI. Understand, at the end of the day this is not one organization pounding their chest about being better, but about allowing our boys to experience the spirit of tough competition.

Rise Above!!!!!!

LaxDad14

http://npyll.com/Page.asp?n=54561&snid=dHMKR1K%3FZ&org=npyll.com

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Never happen. Too much bad blood between some of these organizations.
The Express would never do it unless they could run it and make lots of money on it.

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If you build it they will come, this is what the OBYLL could have been ! If a person not affiliated with any club started and everybody joined, express would have to follow

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Therein lies the problem. When will it not be about the organizations, but the kids???? I understand the organizations are about making their money. I have no problem with that; however, could they all just put aside their differences for a six to eight week period? We as parents should really put the pressure on our respective organizations to get something done........

Take for example the year 2019. If you were to look at the records from last summer of Team 91, LI Express, True Blue, Havoc Dune Dawgs, as well as a few other teams, they all pretty much had at least a 75% winning percentage. I think three of the four listed were probably at 90%. To me it's a no brainer. The best competition is right here on LI. Understand, at the end of the day this is not one organization pounding their chest about being better, but about allowing our boys to experience the spirit of tough competition.

Rise Above!!!!!!

LaxDad14

http://npyll.com/Page.asp?n=54561&snid=dHMKR1K%3FZ&org=npyll.com

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Never happen. Too much bad blood between some of these organizations.
The Express would never do it unless they could run it and make lots of money on it.


Why couldn't it happen? Express and 91 were both at Santa Jam, even though it wasn't their A teams, they were both represented and that was the day after a holiday. These teams also setup scrimmages against others on the island so there is hope.

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They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.

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the oyster bay spring league. games do not interfere with pal. it is over before summer travel begins. games are at home or away fields like pal. as for tournaments there are many in the spring that are local with travel divisions if the travel teams wanted to they would get it done. reading back i think the dune dogs and outlaws both said they were in where are the rest of you? its the best compitition around lets play local spring than go beat up on the rest in the summer [lacrosse] its another way to charge the parents for practice/games

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There are many reasons why this has not happened. Here are some of the reasons:

1. Crazy Parents.

2. Town Lacrosse Boards.

3. Select / Private Team Directors.

4. Public School Coaches.

5. PAL

Stop with the Hate, Jealousy, Resentment, Animosity etc... Understand that until there is a "Premier League" with multiple devisions the majority of Long Island Players will not reach their full potential.

The people / organizations that control the sport on long island have no interest in seeing a "True" Premier League become a reality.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
the oyster bay spring league. games do not interfere with pal. it is over before summer travel begins. games are at home or away fields like pal. as for tournaments there are many in the spring that are local with travel divisions if the travel teams wanted to they would get it done. reading back i think the dune dogs and outlaws both said they were in where are the rest of you? its the best compitition around lets play local spring than go beat up on the rest in the summer [lacrosse] its another way to charge the parents for practice/games

Please stop, this league is so unorganized it's ridiculous. You end up playing the same teams 2, 3 or 4 times. They give you the schedule a few days before the game.
Also, the guy who runs Express also runs the OBLL. Just a money grab here.
The quoted post is so blatantly self-serving.

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I can't say I totally agree with you on this; however, please understand that if this league were to be set up it would only be for the A or AA teams in each age group..... This type of league would not be about the B or C teams... The local tournaments, PAL, and such would be more appropriate for those teams...
Originally Posted by Anonymous
They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I can't say I totally agree with you on this; however, please understand that if this league were to be set up it would only be for the A or AA teams in each age group..... This type of league would not be about the B or C teams... The local tournaments, PAL, and such would be more appropriate for those teams...
Originally Posted by Anonymous
They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.
Here is something for everyone to consider. The NPYLL is receiving NATIONAL recognition at this point. Name a single league associated with Long Island or the Tri-State area that is receiving NATIONAL attention. Somewhat of a short list, no?

The point here is that unless we start an "AA", "A", "B" league format which showcases the local talent, the headlines will continue to be based out of Maryland. Within five years, that will mean a different leader in the Lacrosse Hotbed Wars.

Think about it.

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I can't say I totally agree with you on this; however, please understand that if this league were to be set up it would only be for the A or AA teams in each age group..... This type of league would not be about the B or C teams... The local tournaments, PAL, and such would be more appropriate for those teams...
Originally Posted by Anonymous
They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.
Here is something for everyone to consider. The NPYLL is receiving NATIONAL recognition at this point. Name a single league associated with Long Island or the Tri-State area that is receiving NATIONAL attention. Somewhat of a short list, no?

The point here is that unless we start an "AA", "A", "B" league format which showcases the local talent, the headlines will continue to be based out of Maryland. Within five years, that will mean a different leader in the Lacrosse Hotbed Wars.

Think about it.


Extremely logical and on point. Two 2015 MD kids have already been orally committed, not that that carries much weight, but serves to underscore that MD is on the map big time and is already a hotbed..

The question remains: How to start such a league in this politically charged arena??

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I can't say I totally agree with you on this; however, please understand that if this league were to be set up it would only be for the A or AA teams in each age group..... This type of league would not be about the B or C teams... The local tournaments, PAL, and such would be more appropriate for those teams...
Originally Posted by Anonymous
They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.
Here is something for everyone to consider. The NPYLL is receiving NATIONAL recognition at this point. Name a single league associated with Long Island or the Tri-State area that is receiving NATIONAL attention. Somewhat of a short list, no?

The point here is that unless we start an "AA", "A", "B" league format which showcases the local talent, the headlines will continue to be based out of Maryland. Within five years, that will mean a different leader in the Lacrosse Hotbed Wars.

Think about it.


You are correct. Now how does this get done? Will someone step up to run a legit league for high level clubs?

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The OBYLL is a complete joke.
Unless someone who is completely independent of any club team organizes such a league it will never happen. ever.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The OBYLL is a complete joke.
Unless someone who is completely independent of any club team organizes such a league it will never happen. ever.


I think more of the problem would be getting the field space. As you all know, getting field space is a gigantic problem and it is controlled by a select few who dole it out to their buddies. Getting a league up and running in and of itself is not that challenging, getting a place to hold your games would be an issue.


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Really why how does a b become an a by playing them.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
I can't say I totally agree with you on this; however, please understand that if this league were to be set up it would only be for the A or AA teams in each age group..... This type of league would not be about the B or C teams... The local tournaments, PAL, and such would be more appropriate for those teams...
Originally Posted by Anonymous
They only care about their A teams. And big name tournaments.

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I mentioned this in my 2019 post. It must independent of the big clubs. Why can't the state parks or county parks be used.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The OBYLL is a complete joke.
Unless someone who is completely independent of any club team organizes such a league it will never happen. ever.


I think more of the problem would be getting the field space. As you all know, getting field space is a gigantic problem and it is controlled by a select few who dole it out to their buddies. Getting a league up and running in and of itself is not that challenging, getting a place to hold your games would be an issue.


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The beauty of the NPYLL is that all games are played at the participating teams home fields..... The main reason why this format has not taken off is the league is not designed to be a money maker.

Originally Posted by Anonymo us
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The OBYLL is a complete joke.
Unless someone who is completely independent of any club team organizes such a league it will never happen. ever.


I think more of the problem would be getting the field space. As you all know, getting field space is a gigantic problem and it is controlled by a select few who dole it out to their buddies. Getting a league up and running in and of itself is not that challenging, getting a place to hold your games would be an issue.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The beauty of the NPYLL is that all games are played at the participating teams home fields..... The main reason why this format has not taken off is the league is not designed to be a money maker.
The standard excuse is to say that "it is not a money maker" so that there is no motivation to bring about a true regional premier league.

If that was true, the question you have to ask yourself is "why were they able to do this in Maryland?" Don't you think there is competition for players in that hotbed also? Starting from the money angle usually works, but not in this case - the point is that there has to be the desire to have change, the desire to actually settle the debate on the field here on Long Island. Eliminating the "fear" of being "exposed" at the club level is the real issue here.

There are many reasons why this has worked in Maryland and it starts with the organizational structure and governance being OUTSIDE of the member clubs. None of the clubs are fearful of being "exposed". They all left that baggage behind.

The truth is that they realize that the Maryland programs trailed the Long Island Hotbed and needed to do something radically different. Playing each other on a regular basis was the first step in that improvement program.

Ask yourself this question : what has changed in the last decade related to lacrosse training on Long Island? What are the fundamental changes? Yes, lacrosse has moved to a year-round calendar which is one way to move up competitively; facing better competition on a regular basis is another.

Next, that league structure needs to provide the value proposition to have the member clubs participate. This would imply creating a win-win situation for the league to make money as well as providing a better training forum for the member clubs.

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Originally Posted by CageSage

Next, that league structure needs to provide the value proposition to have the member clubs participate. This would imply creating a win-win situation for the league to make money as well as providing a better training forum for the member clubs.


There is the inherent problem: in that the hosting league must make money.
Is there a way around that? Teams already make money via memberships and(unfortunately) try-outs. Why must a league MAKE money? Why not have a league where teams pay just the extra money per field usage? pass the cost onto the teams, but just the amount to cover expenses. Perhaps an Ad Hoc committee of sorts with a non- for profit status can be formed and entice and organize competition levels for teams to emulate the Maryland format. Maybe the non-for-profit angle can have charities as vectors for surplus entry fees or even more from donations.
Just throwing up on the "cage" to see if it sticks.

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This is interesting

NYPLL Consitution

http://www.npyll.com/Page.asp?n=54561&snid=dHJK%5E0I1%5E&org=npyll.com

This is a good model to follow.

Last edited by CageSage; . Reason: Added URL Link
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The beauty of the NPYLL is that all games are played at the participating teams home fields..... The main reason why this format has not taken off is the league is not designed to be a money maker.

Originally Posted by Anonymo us
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The OBYLL is a complete joke.
Unless someone who is completely independent of any club team organizes such a league it will never happen. ever.


I think more of the problem would be getting the field space. As you all know, getting field space is a gigantic problem and it is controlled by a select few who dole it out to their buddies. Getting a league up and running in and of itself is not that challenging, getting a place to hold your games would be an issue.



Home Field?? How would these "Premier Teams" find fields to play on?

1. Crazy Parents of kids that do not make a team will complain.

2. Board Members of Town Programs will fight it.

3. Public School Coaches will fight it and attempt to coerce kids into playing only for their team / town.

4. Directors of Select / Private Teams have limited field space.

5. PAL will fight it.

In order for Long Island Athletes to remain competitive change is needed. There needs to be a venue for kids to develop and reach their full potential.

Athletes need to be challenged in order to improve.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Why must a league MAKE money? ... Just throwing up on the "cage" to see if it sticks.
The league structure must be able to sustain a central administation function - standings, schedules, communications and such. The discussion of making money typically goes in one of two directions. You either have a commercial operation (similar to what Long Island has now) or an all volunteer organization (where service suffers under the guise of "we are all volunteers"). The league needs to throw off sufficient funds to cover central operations as well as building a small func for future expansion of tournament hosting.

If you look at NPYLL, the charge per team is $250.00 per season. Sixty-five teams played ($16250.00) in addition to some profits from their Fall Fest events. An operating budget of $25,000.00 should be sufficient.

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MC who owns express runs OBLL as well

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
MC who owns express runs OBLL as well


Who cares?

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Why must a league MAKE money? ... Just throwing up on the "cage" to see if it sticks.
The league structure must be able to sustain a central administation function - standings, schedules, communications and such. The discussion of making money typically goes in one of two directions. You either have a commercial operation (similar to what Long Island has now) or an all volunteer organization (where service suffers under the guise of "we are all volunteers"). The league needs to throw off sufficient funds to cover central operations as well as building a small func for future expansion of tournament hosting.

If you look at NPYLL, the charge per team is $250.00 per season. Sixty-five teams played ($16250.00) in addition to some profits from their Fall Fest events. An operating budget of $25,000.00 should be sufficient.


Yes, administration costs must be taken into consideration. It was meant to question should a leave be profitable? It appears that the major team programs would be generating surplus income. Clearly they could afford a $250 entry fee.

If the NYPLL model is to be followed, then two major hurdles exist:
-the "home" field aspect where games can be played at little or no cost to the visitors
- getting teams/coaches to committ to the concept of AA,A,B and C where by a team must declare which level they would play in and more importantly; are they ready to put their claimed superiority on the line and actually risk their self proclaimed "best in "x" class" status to participate?

This could result in teams having players migrate to other programs (the NYPLL constitution prohibits inter-team transfers in the same season). That may frighten coaches who do not want to have their "elite status" challenged and their potential ranks thinned. Thus we are back to economics again.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
MC who owns express runs OBLL as well


Who cares?


Im sure the person means that MC owns Express and OBLL therefore there is the conflict of many of the better clubs on LI don't play in his league anymore. So if there is a person whom is NOT involved at all with 91, fl$, Express, Trueblue, Jesters, Gladiators or Team LI it could work. But not OBLL because of MC. Also, everyone loves $$ but it seems like the LI club owners love $$$ a little more than the MD club owners, I guess thats why there is a NYPLL here and not in LI.

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John Pappas has been running the CANTIAGUE PARK college and adult league for almost 40 years - he is not tied to any travel organization that I know of and I believe that he works in the parks department for Nassau County - he was instrumental in the beginning of the OBYLL, but has since moved on and is not affiliated with it. Sage - you should reach out to him and see if he thinks it's doable, he is the one person that can answer the questions

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"But not OBLL because of MC"??

Other teams do not enter because they chose not to, "not because of MC".

Stop the hate, resentment, jealousy, animosity, etc..

As I understand it, the intention of the league was to "earn a profit" as well as offer a more competitive league for kids to play in. The alternative was PAL and School Ball which are predominantly "non competitive".

Cantiague Lacrosse? Do you think it is a Non Profit? If he has been doing it for 40 years, he has been making money for 40 years. More power to him, I wish I had thought of it.

There are many forces working against a "Premier" "Competitive" league. Stop worrying about MC. My guess is that if a "Competitive" League was formed MC and would have his teams in it.

MC and the other club owners are not the biggest obstacles.

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Re: What's Your View? Establishing a Regional Premier League
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Originally Posted by Anonymous

Other teams do not enter because they chose not to, "not because of MC".


Cantiague Lacrosse? Do you think it is a Non Profit? If he has been doing it for 40 years, he has been making money for 40 years. More power to him, I wish I had thought of it.



It is a very popular belief that the two "Major" organizations on the Island 91 and LIE do not support each others events - and I understand the business aspect91 . Why would send twenty teams to the OBYLL and increase the bottom line of a competitor, conversely why would LIE send 20 Express teams to a 91 tournament for the same reason. True, OBYLL has been very difficult to participate in because of the lack of teams and the scheduling disasters. On the other hand Cantiague is a well established brand, excellently run. Of course it is a for profit but the fact that he is an independent and not affiliated with any elite youth organizations make him the perfect person to talk to about the feasibility of this, not necessarily to start or run this but to be part of the conversation

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This could be a very simple process for the right person. You would need someone who has experience running a league and someone who would be able to gain access to multiple fields. All that would have to happen is inviting all the directors of the Travel lax clubs across LI to a meeting and come up with a list of teams who are interested in playing. Once you have the support of the Travel clubs, the rest is easy. Of course it would have to be a profitable venture or it will not be run properly. It cant be a person that is involved or beholden to any travel programs. I think everyone is overthinking it. All it would take is a little coordination, but I think it would be easier than you think.

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