US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club

What exactly did the Hawks do, you never finished the sentence. If we are talking about real "facts", can you tell me there are no kids being held back on ANY team in New [lacrosse], New Jersey, Delaware, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina, Colorado, Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, California, Texas, Minnesota, Maine, Georgia, Arizona, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, Indiana or any of the other lacrosse playing states in this country. The answer is simply NO, you can't say that and be factual, because somebody somewhere has them, yes even in the great state of Long Island there are kids being held back. I know it is prevalent with the private school sector but to lump everyone together and label them cheaters is a little ridiculous when everyone in the lacrosse playing country is doing the same thing.

I'd actually be willing to guarantee they all do. Even more reason for everyone to stop whining about the Crabs and get their own houses in order. Funny thing is, since everyone is doing it, kind of makes it all even - crazy but true!

You missed my point, I'm talking about teams have one somewhere, not built their program on it like crabs, fca etc i don't think crabnation should be talking about order to anyone. I also was not saying because every state somewhere has that it is right. Make your own twisted argument, don't twist my words

That's odd - I don't see any twisting of words at all. You said "somebody somewhere has them" and "I know it is prevalent with the private school sector but to lump everyone together and label them cheaters is a little ridiculous when everyone in the lacrosse playing country is doing the same thing."
I said "I'd actually be willing to guarantee they all do. Even more reason for everyone to stop whining about the Crabs and get their own houses in order." meaning, you said everyone is doing the same thing, and I agreed that they are. Then I simply stated that the funny part of that is, when you're all cheating, it almost evens things up. If everyone in the MLB sneaks pine tar onto their bats, no one gets the advantage, do they? Where's the twist?

Looking at the Hershey tournament schedule for the 2020s - notice Hogan has his 2020 team PLAYING UP in the U15 division. You would NEVER see the Crabs organization do that....

Kudos to Hogan

To say the great state of Long Island has any abundance of hold backs is a lie. The only one I know of is being shunned and vilified as he should be. We do not have many prep schools on L.I. and we don't need to cheat. I am watching, as I write this, 91 "crush" your crabs at an age appropriate tournament. All of you, Quint Kessenich, U.S. lacrosse, Lacrosse Mag.Inside lacrosse, can all talk up Maryland all you like but the truth is your kids aren't as talented as they are on l.I

After watching high level club teams play for three years I strongly believe that the LI kids are a tougher grittier group of kids than the DMV kids. When taking into consideration the number of holdbacks within the DMV elite programs in comparison to the none / very few holdbacks within the LI programs, the separation of play, skills and talent is even more impressive! Objective MD observer!

Looking at the Hershey tournament schedule for the 2020s - notice Hogan has his 2020 team PLAYING UP in the U15 division. You would NEVER see the Crabs organization do that....

Kudos to Hogan

After watching high level club teams play for three years I strongly believe that the LI kids are a tougher grittier group of kids than the DMV kids. When taking into consideration the number of holdbacks within the DMV elite programs in comparison to the none / very few holdbacks within the LI programs, the separation of play, skills and talent is even more impressive! Objective MD observer!

You are the fool who cant follow logic. Dropping date to May 1 was made for one reason. To let more holdbacks/prefirsts in. Who is the king of holdbacks/prefirst. Do you even need an answer.We all know. No other reason. If not why not follow clear USL guidelines, or maybe add in August, maybe July at most. But to go to May 1. Yea right ... This gave an advantage to teams that draw holdbacks as YOU STILL NEEDED TO BE ON GRADE ... Just cause they allowed May 1 doesnt help any programs that dont have the mentality of the Maryland privates and a few others with holdbacks/prefirsts. Crabs probably wanted a Jan 1 deadline or earlier..

I know your brain is fried from the defeat but it is simple logic. And nice try with the child who is huge and proper age. So what?? Kids come in many shapes and sizes who said different??? And the lap thing?? another logic argument that would have landed to a F!
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Witty. The only part that you're correct on is that your argument is simple - but it's not logical (go and look up Webster's definition of "logic", I think you're a little confused). So, the Crabs are so influential that they were able to garner a May 1 cutoff? You're a moron. Once again - and try to follow along - the rules were the same for everyone who entered the tourney. That's the logic that is not difficult to follow. I'm just taking a guess here, but I'd gather that your full-time job isn't traveling around the country checking birth certificates for youth lax, so you're just spewing completely uninformed crap now every time you say "holdback/prefirst" with your only backup being "everyone knows" and "I read on this forum" and "everyone says" so by God, it must be true.

The point with the kid who is the proper age is that I'm 100% positive that you'd watch the game, see him next to your little Johhny, and say "no way that kid is 13 - he's got to be a 2018". And you'd be wrong (again). But you helped to prove my point with your statement - "kids come in all shapes and sizes", so how do you know who is a holdback and who is just bigger for their age? Again, you're not checking birth certificates and transcripts. Please don't come unarmed to a battle of wits, quit while you're behind.

Trying to get you to understand about being in grade and age is useless. They dont go hand in hand in MD lacrosse like other states. Especially at the private schools.
So your simple argument comes down to since I cant tell who is a holdback/prefirst keep my mouth shut! Too Funny Crab Holdback/prefirst apologist. I have two children in a MIAA school. I am aware of all the shenanigans that go on with the children and holding them back. It is a shame it has bleed over into youth lacrosse. Crabs had some incredible teams when they were U13AA and U15AA and their HS teams. Their promotion of Grade base youth teams is a money play and a way for Crabs to game the system at youth level to their advantage. Disgusting behavior and completely opposite of all we are taught about the character of youth athletics and its competing in it.

I think many top programs from outside the hotbeds have a handful (or two) of kids too old for a 9/1 cutoff. Md may do it more than LI, but unfortunately it's pretty common. Holdbacks, though, appears to be more of a prep school issue, whether Md., the NE or boarding schools.

It is an age based division and they have summer birthdays so they HAVE to play U15 . They are simply playing them where they belong and following their owners rules. They do not have holdbacks on the team but they do have June, July and August birthdays making them ineligible for U13. They are NOT playing up.

L.i. Has a much larger population to pull from.

What is pre-first? Does that set a kid back an entire year or just something for kids that would otherwise be young for their grade?

Trying to get you to understand about being in grade and age is useless. They dont go hand in hand in MD lacrosse like other states. Especially at the private schools.
So your simple argument comes down to since I cant tell who is a holdback/prefirst keep my mouth shut! Too Funny Crab Holdback/prefirst apologist. I have two children in a MIAA school. I am aware of all the shenanigans that go on with the children and holding them back. It is a shame it has bleed over into youth lacrosse. Crabs had some incredible teams when they were U13AA and U15AA and their HS teams. Their promotion of Grade base youth teams is a money play and a way for Crabs to game the system at youth level to their advantage. Disgusting behavior and completely opposite of all we are taught about the character of youth athletics and its competing in it.

MIAA schools will put kids in prefirst that have summer birthdays so that they are more mature and better prepared to start 1st grade.

so that gives you the O.K. to cheat? If your state can't support the amount of clubs than stop creating clubs. Field 1 or 2 and compete on an even playing field against our 4 or 5. Don't cheat and say we have more kids to choose from to justify it. Our boys are just better admit it, they train harder, spend more time on the wall, and play better team ball and no matter how much money you spend that will be the case for the foreseeable future.On L.I. it is still a scarlet letter to be held back a year (recalassed if you like but held back is what it is). No matter how much of a bias you people down south create our boys are still better. Maybe U.S. lacrosse should move there headquarters to the Island so they can see lacrosse played without the holdback cheaters then maybe they will change the rules. Despite what you outsiders think in Md. Pa. and N.E. we don't have the reclass problem here, like you guys do there. Go read the Chaminade thread on this site and you can see that it is basically a vilified practice that will get you shunned on L.I.

I don't think anyone is having trouble understanding the holdback/prefirst discussion (although they are two different things - not entering your son into 1st grade because he may not be academically ready/mature enough is not exactly the same as holding him back to gain an advantage over other players in 7th/8th grade, unless you have a crystal ball which informs you your newborn will be a lax star). I do think that implying you are some sort of expert on holdbacks and know it all because you supposedly have 2 kids in an MIAA school is ridiculous. I routinely go to the doctor and watch House, but last time I checked no one is paying me to do open heart surgery.

pre1st is not just for summer birthdays as the poster suggests. It is most often simply an extra year that private schools encourage before starting first grade. Regardless of why it is done, and would agree it is not done for sports reasons, it does make kids up to a full year older then their counterparts . If they need to do it for academics and socialization, it is great. For sports they should remain in the grade that their age would dictate by that state's standards. Most holdbacks go to MIAA schools which after taking a pre-1st then gives them up to a 2 year age advantage.

You are too funny. Your analogies about a doctor are what I would expect from an holdback apologist. Your analogies,logic and arguments are so far off that they are actually funny! If you think all the prefirsts are held back due to academic standards you must have your head completely up RM's butt and cant see any light! And there is a bridge in LI I want to sell you too.

Sure it makes sense - most Maryland teams would have no problem meeting the age requirements. Contrary to your opinion, all Maryland teams DO NOT have holdbacks and some work very hard to make sure they do not. This post is just trying to bring everyone down to Crabs level. The proof would be that they could show up to play at any age/grade tournament and qualify. Crabs would never do that. There is a big difference between what FCA does with respect to bringing age appropriate players that play up (ie legitimate 2020AA players who also play 2019AA) to play with their own grade/age group and what Crabs does by playing down with older kids in younger age groups. Do not pull all mid Atlantic teams into the mudpile with you.

Just so outsiders know, the "holdbacks" and prefirst kids are limited to Gilman, Boys Latin, McDodogh and StPauls kids. The catholic schools, Calvert Hall and Loyola don't do that nonsense. They may get a few transfers but as a whole, they are the correct age. Look at Conrad, the best player in the country and UA all star MVP. He is an 18 year old who plays 3 sports. the Kellys at CHC are the same.

Are you serious? Maybe that's because Loyola starts in 6th grade and CHC starts in 9th. Kind of hard to prefirst kids.

That is my point. The best player in the country went to Loyola and he was not a "holdback". Conrad played 3 sports and could never have played for Team 91 with their "rules".