US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club

Well, I guess Team 91 showed up this weekend with or without hold backs.

Looneys parent here. Yes it will

Crabs won't make it to the TV game. I promise.

Let's see:

2016. Crabs reach Elite 8. Team 91 reaches Final Four. Team 91 beats Crabs by 1.

2017. Crabs reach Final 4. Team 91 reaches Championship. Team 91 beats Crabs by 1.

2018. Crabs reach Final 4. Team 91 wins Championship. Team 91 beats Crabs by 2.

2019. Crabs reach Final 5. Team 91 wins Championship. Team 91 beats Crabs 1.


Sounds like both team had excellent showings and the matchups between the two clubs were close across the board. Great job by both clubs.

Difference is Team 91 had on age kids....Crabs did not. Playing kids 1-2 years younger and losing by 1 is nothing to brag about. every win is tainted when you do not field a team of on age kids.

LOL. The tournament is by grade, not by age. If the Crabs (or any club) violate the rules, then you have a point. They did not violate any rules.

You must have not have any HS kids. This was a HS tournament (with rising freshmen as well). It was by grade.

The POINT is that holding back kids in order to have older kids in lower grades is a pathetic way to try to win. Systematically holding back your kids so they win games against younger kids is ruining the game.

How about playing according to real grade as opposed to holdback grade? Crabs manipulate the rules for their own advantage. A win using all over age kids - or kids not playing in their real grade based on their age- is nothing to be proud of. Agree with the above, no bragging rights for teams full of holdbacks. Sportsmanship is part of any athletic event.

Was it against the rules, NO! What the Crabs was against the INTEGRITY of the sport. They knowingly bent the rules in their favor in an arrogant fashion. The number of hold backs they played was shameful.

Don't hate the player, hate the game! Until people stand up to their US Lax, their club, and the tournaments this practice will continue.

Reclassifying happens in every sports. Sometimes it's for academic reasons. Sometimes athletic ones. Sometimes for other reasons. Happens in basketball, football, soccer, hockey, baseball, etc.

I don't see you guys crying about it on other forums. Also, why not lambast clubs like Madlax who actually have more reclassified kids than the Crabs do?

You guys are crying because you lost a random 2020 game, but this tournament was for HS. Are you going to cry when a senior runs over your then sophomore son?

Sounds like the only running over this weekend was my Team 91 sophmore son running over over your Crab senior holdback. Can't wait to see how many additional holdbacks the Crabs will have after this weekend. Where is the fat man now?? #humbling #average.

This was a high school tournament you idiot. It's done by grade for recruiting purposes.

It's no use reasoning with these idiots. They are so focused on their rising 8th grader that they have no idea what lacrosse is like in HS. The fact that they are bitching about reclassified kids playing for their HS club team says a lot about them.

No it says more about you that you justify can action that is ethically and morrally wrong and puts kids in danger in order to justify your own means and feel good about yourself. You my friend are not a leader of man.

People with a sense of entitlement will never see reason. They feel that have their son who was in pre-first then chose to repeat 8th grade is on par with a true graduation year child. Tha fact that their son who could be 18 months older than the kids on the other team doesn't bother them, the parents are buying these victories and teaching their children it is OK to cheat. The parents of These kids who did the pre first and re classed in the eight grade are paying upwards of and additional $50,000 for their kids to be a dominant lax player against kids 18 months younger who haven't even started puberty yet.

The modo for these folks is "if you can't beat them, just buy it"

The tournament in question is for high school kids. The college coaches want them playing by their grade. Ok, so some kids are older. They play against each other in high school right? By your line of thinking, 10th graders shouldn't be playing against kids that are old enough to be in 11th or 12th grade. I guess Tommy, Bobby, Timmy and Jimmy should not play varsity until they are seniors then.

I understand your issue with middle school kids but you guys are making asses of yourself complaining about high school kids.

Madlax has just as many holdbacks on their teams as the Crabs and they got demolished at the Platinum Cup. All those holdbacks and they put together a 6-11-1 record.

Madlax even has a kid who just graduated from HS who is now playing on their 2016 team.

Since there has been some speak of 91 forming a Maryland team will that new 91 Maryland team accept any hold backs or reclassified kids?

If they do will the NY team 91 parents still complain?

If all those holdbacks for Madlax don't start producing, is the owner going to go postal on them?

http://deadspin.com/hey-ungrateful-quitter-emails-from-an-angry-lacrosse-660703941

Stupid questions. All MD teams "accept" holdbacks. The one's that don't have any aren't doing it by choice. The holdbacks just don't choose to play for them.

Of course 91 parents will still complain. When you base your whole self worth on the accomplishments of 12 year olds, anything that tarnishes that record will be cause for epic meltdowns.

They will move on and complain about something else, but only if they lose. Holdbacks in NY get swept under the rug, only cheating if someone else does it. Team 91 placing holdbacks on their team will be referred to as "an innovative approach to the changing landscape of the game"

Come now, NO ONE DOES HOLDBACKS LIKE THE CRABS! All Crabs teams are stacked with holdbacks. It will be that way until Hopkins, UNC and the like stop recruiting babies.

91, 3d, Madlax, Express will accept but do not lead the way. Sat through JR presentation too, Munro called situation "unfortunate" and "not ideal" and suggested holdback as a way of fighting fire with fire.

Only group that even compares to Crabs is Canada Edge.
It's particularly frustrating when you see the 8th and 9th grader Crabs players celebrating a goal or victory over your true 7th grader, but that's what makes RM money, doesn't it?

Very true, next years 2020 Crab player will be driving themselves to the games.

Wrong. I've seen the Madlax rosters. They have just as many hold backs as the Crabs.

And Munro? He has been advocating hold backs as much as anyone. Look at his own son. He encourages hold backs for all his players

That is a fair and accurate comment. Crabs has a lot of kids who repeated a grade for sports, as do other local clubs. But the families drive those decisions. Crabs just picks best players at tryouts. 3d is the only club I know of which overtly markets and sells families on reclassifying kids. They put in writing that is a great strategy to follow to increase a kid's chances. It works to the extent parents see it working for other kids getting committed, most notably the son of the 3d owner who was a very early commit to a major school. That said, he didn't make it past the first round of cuts for the U.S. U-19 indoor team...a good player, but in the end you are the player you are and not the player your parents or club sell you to be. Crabs have great players in evidence. They do look better because they are older, but frankly if they had not reclassified they'd still be good players. This is all just a strategy to be in the tippy top of a recruiting class since there are so few desired D1 schools who are in the sport. This isn't football where there are 300 places to get a full scholarship.

"The tournament in question is for high school kids. The college coaches want them playing by their grade. Ok, so some kids are older. They play against each other in high school right? By your line of thinking, 10th graders shouldn't be playing against kids that are old enough to be in 11th or 12th grade. I guess Tommy, Bobby, Timmy and Jimmy should not play varsity until they are seniors then.

I understand your issue with middle school kids but you guys are making asses of yourself complaining about high school kids."

Seniors shouldn't be playing against freshman or sophomores, unless the fresh/soph are good enough for varsity. Nobody is complaining about kids playing up, but kids shouldn't be playing down!

The issue is strictly a youth game one. And more specific a youth club lacrosse issue. This has nothing to do with high school play or anything to do with a freshman being a JV or a varsity player. Grade based teams in youth lacrosse exist for one reason only. It allows parents discretion to manipulate the age group their son plays in to the downside. Better players in sports have always played up if they were strong and good enough. Lacrosse is the only sport I can think of that celebrates signing up a 15 year old with 13 year olds to hold an advantage. What is next, fake a learning disability to take untimed tests at school? My kid would likely do better on the SAT if he could spend 10 hours going over everything many times over. Would that be ok if he gets a 99 percentile and gets into Harvard instead of a 80 percentile? The difference can be that small for an academic admissions application. Happens all the time.

Recently sat with a top 20 D1 coach who has done some significant research on IL top rated kids starting from 2011 forward. He took a look at the top 50 kids, checked to see if they were even still on the team they were recruited to after two years, and then checked to see how many of these phenoms became All-Americans. The results are staggering, and not in a favorable way. Clearly, many of these kids were holdbacks, re-class kids and almost all were early commits. It seems the vast majority lose their edge rather quickly on the field and many don't pan out at the school either.
It will take some time to completely run it's course, but the early evidence shows these kids who've played down against weaker competition in their HS years, can't seem to hack it when the tables are turned.
Again, not my words, those of a coach you'd want your son to play for.

Agree.. Youth Sports should be for age only teams..U15 and under. Crabs are one of the worst offenders of the holdback in youth lax. They promote it constantly at their HS teams in the past. Problem is the Crabs have now decided to promote it at youth sports. Completely disgusting. But HS teams should be based on grade..just the way it is and should be. Doesnt mean you cant moan but it is HS and you have JV,,fresh/Soph plus Varsity teams and plenty of kids are older and mature at that point. Youth should be age period.

How did the reclass strategy work out at the Platinum Cup this weekend. An all Long Island final at 2019. Way to go Long Island

I agree that this is not a high school issue - we are talking about youth lacrosse.

If all those holdbacks for Madlax don't start producing, is the owner going to go postal on them?

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The sad parts in this deadspin thing still getting churned are he's a good kid. And now he's a good kid with a wrecked knee who may not get back and that just sucks. The other sad and pathetic part is this is this is an example of crazy, narcissistic and selfish club owner and parents running hot together. That just sucks too because no kid should be at the center of this public relations war between two awful examples of everything wrong with this sport.

It is the parents choice to play a freshman on a varsity team and are not manipulating any rule. Choosing to play up vs forcing others to play up because you chose to play down are two entirely different things whether it is youth or high school - it is unsportsmanlike. One is an example of your kid being good enough and big enough to play up the other is your holdback kid not being good enough and playing down putting others at risk because they could not hang with their own age.

Let's clarify that. It is a recruiting issue. When an age legit 14 yo 2019 steps on the field at a showcase with a 16 yo 2019 the 16 year old with even average ability will look like a super star against the 14 yo. Which is exactly what the 16 yo parents are striving to achieve. In the case of HS ball, coaches will only bring up those freshmen that have the skills and physical maturity to compete at that level against 17 and 18 year olds (19 and 20 in the MIAA and Inter AC).

Really?!? 20 year olds??? MIAA rules are you must be 18 when you start your senior year. Nice try though. The legend just keeps growing

"A student who has attained his/her 19th birthday on or after August 31st of a given academic year may participate only on the Varsity level."

Yes, 19 and 20 year olds!

Absolutely 19 & 20 year olds as seniors including some of the most famous Crabs alum were 19 and 20 year old seniors.

If you turn 19 on or after Aug 31, you can not turn 20 during that school year. It is metaphysically, geometrically and chronologically impossible.

Not in the minds of Strong Island.

This is an important issue - would it be possible to get the coach to share a little more detail of his findings? I recently had a D1 coach tell me he had about a 50% "success rate" with players that were holdbacks and committed early. There is sparse data looking at the performance of holdbacks over the longer term when the physical advantage of age has played out in high school. Does anyone else know of research on this topic?