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Posted By: LAXDADDY32 Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/24/14 11:15 PM
Just announced today. Go to cascadelacrosse.com for their statement.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 12:14 AM
this will be fixed in a week or so.

maybe NOSCOE could look into age verification next!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
this will be fixed in a week or so.

maybe NOSCOE could look into age verification next!!


This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. If NOSCOE reversers their decision they will almost be implying that they are not competent enough to run their own tests. I would imagine that there were multiple closed door meetings before they essentially sank the most popular helmet in the sport.

I am betting on a recall.



Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 03:16 AM
STX are about to get a higher percentage of the helmet market share.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
this will be fixed in a week or so.

maybe NOSCOE could look into age verification next!!


This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. If NOSCOE reversers their decision they will almost be implying that they are not competent enough to run their own tests. I would imagine that there were multiple closed door meetings before they essentially sank the most popular helmet in the sport.

I am betting on a recall.




Cascade will go bankrupt on this
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 03:56 AM
This is a setup.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 04:59 AM
Btw it's NOCSAE. National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 12:21 PM
Is it just the R or is it also the CPX-R?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 12:57 PM
Would love to know the real story here. The helmet was NOCSAE certified by two independent labs, so it's odd that the certification would be pulled so long after the helmet was introduced.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 01:07 PM
It's also the Warrior

NOCSAE Voids the Certification of Two Lacrosse Helmets

BALTIMORE, Nov. 24, 2014 - US Lacrosse, the national governing body for men's and women's lacrosse, has been notified by NOCSAE (National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment) that two lacrosse helmet models currently available in the marketplace -- the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator -- do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standard, ND041.

NOCSAE's public statement, available in its entirety at www.nocsae.org, says that the organization made its determination following an independent investigation and evaluation of the two helmets, including a review of each manufacturer's internal testing and quality control data. As a result, NOCSAE has invalidated the manufacturer's certification of compliance for all manufacturing dates for the two helmet models.

Playing rules written by US Lacrosse, the NCAA and the NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) mandate that all helmets must meet NOCSAE standards and be NOCSAE certified. Both models had previously been certified by the manufacturers as compliant with the NOCSAE standard.

NOCSAE's statement adds that both Cascade and Warrior have been notified of these conclusions by NOCSAE, and have indicated that they are working to address the issue.

Consumers seeking further information about these two helmet models are advised to contact the manufacturers directly: Cascade (1-800-537-1702); Warrior (1-800-968-7845).

* * * *

Cascade posted the following, which appears right now as a pop-up if you visit their home page:

The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) has announced that the Cascade R model lacrosse helmet no longer complies with NOCSAE standard ND041 and that Cascade's certification of compliance on that helmet model only is invalid.

We are working with NOCSAE to clarify the concerns and appropriately address the issue. However, our first priority is always our loyal Cascade customers.

Players not in immediate need of a certified helmet are encouraged to retain their helmet. Cascade is confident that we will be able to re-certify the helmet and that recertification could be a simple fix. We expect to communicate all available remedies as soon as possible, once approved by NOCSAE.

We are communicating the following information to the consumers:

•If you are a player that owns an R helmet and has games in November/Early December but do not own another certified helmet, you should contact your preferred lacrosse retailer to understand if they have the ability to fit you with a certified helmet. If yes, return your R helmet to that retailer and they will provide a replacement.

•If you are a player that owns an R helmet and are not using it until the season starts, we are asking you to please hold onto your helmet in the short-term. As we get closer to season start we will have a procedure in place for you to receive either an update to your R model or another replacement option.

•If you are a team that owns R helmets and has games in November/Early December but do not have another certified helmet solution, please contact Cascade customer service at 1(800) 537-1702 and we will do our best to find a lacrosse retailer to support your needs.

•If you are a team that has R helmets and do not need to use them immediately we are asking you to please hold onto your helmets in the short-term. As we get closer to season start we have a procedure in place for you to receive either an update to your R models or another replacement option.

Detailed instructions on necessary steps will be made available on our web site www.CascadeLacrosse.com and provided to all relevant governing bodies as soon as they become available.

It is important to note that the Cascade R model has passed applicable NOCSAE standards at two separate, independent, NOCSAE-accredited test labs commissioned by the Company.

We apologize for the confusion and disruption cause by today's announcement. We know you have trusted Cascade and our products for more than 28 years and we will do everything in our power to ensure that trust remains for many years to come.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Would love to know the real story here. The helmet was NOCSAE certified by two independent labs, so it's odd that the certification would be pulled so long after the helmet was introduced.


or when the helet went to get recertified. because all school must send them out to get recert. they found issues.

I wonder how many PAl and rec leagues parents recert their helmets. I know soccer used to check shin guards at times I have yet to see a lax official ever ck to see if a helmet was certified.

football rec leaues send their helmets out. Why not Rec lax.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 01:22 PM
If they operate anything like UL listing it could be a number of things including not having the components that they had when they were certified. For example they went to a different vendor who doesn't have noscae certification. Could be as small as a chin strap button or rivet. Or a bigger component like the padding. They will go out and purchase a helmet and strip it down to exam it and make sure they stay in compliance after they get the certification
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous] Cascade will go bankrupt on this


The Cascade R is about 5% of revenue for the parent company - PSG, which also makes the Bauer, Mission, Maverik, Inaria, Combat and Easton brands.

The ND041 standard which the R and Regulator did not meet has to do with performance testing. It may be a case of the helmets failing an impact test, improper fit, testing them without a NOCSEA certified face mask or just an improper label (although I suspect it's something more serious than an improper label).

http://nocsae.org/wp-content/files_mf/1348509399ND04111m12MfrdLacrosseHelmetsperfstd.pdf
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 03:10 PM
Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 03:31 PM
I received an email back from noscae very quick reply regarding the CPX-R model it stated that at this time it is not included in their decertification so anyone with that model is safe for the moment. The investigation is ongoing though.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.


The beautiful disaster for STX. That helmet is a great product. Quite honestly I don't know how this goes any other way than game, set match to STX and Under Armour if they can come into the helmet market without screwing it up.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.


Exactly. Might be a coincidence, but.....exactly how independent is the NOSCAE?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.


The beautiful disaster for STX. That helmet is a great product. Quite honestly I don't know how this goes any other way than game, set match to STX and Under Armour if they can come into the helmet market without screwing it up.


Yes, quite the coincidence to have this "disaster" fall into their lap.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 06:12 PM
Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 06:46 PM
Does this have any effect on youth leagues or tournaments? I've seen kids play with those old buckets and sticks so pinched a ball barely goes In and nothing is said or done.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 07:01 PM
Yes, you bring along two popular competing products, which were already certified, to your independent product test and suddenly both competing products no longer meet certification. What are the chances?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.


d3o is the orange foam material going into the STX helmets. it is a well known material that goes into motorbike armour and some other applications, and is quite good. it is also a very expensive material and is only produced by d3o.

Cascade is in trouble...single product company. Warrior has other places to look for revenue in lacrosse and in ice hockey, but a debacle for them as well.

so if you are a Warrior sponsored team like Princeton, Duke or Denver, what helmet do you wear this season? an STX would be the ultimate insult to Warrior with the kind of cash they pour into sponsoring NCAA programs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/25/14 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.


d3o is the orange foam material going into the STX helmets. it is a well known material that goes into motorbike armour and some other applications, and is quite good. it is also a very expensive material and is only produced by d3o.

Cascade is in trouble...single product company. Warrior has other places to look for revenue in lacrosse and in ice hockey, but a debacle for them as well.

so if you are a Warrior sponsored team like Princeton, Duke or Denver, what helmet do you wear this season? an STX would be the ultimate insult to Warrior with the kind of cash they pour into sponsoring NCAA programs.


STX had Boys Latin test the new helmets last spring. Every single player that used one hated it. I hope they made some changes. They all felt like they were wearing a football helmet.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 01:14 AM
STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 02:59 AM
When I went to return my R was told by retailer that the issue is with language in the paperwork that comes with the helmet when you purchase it and not with the helmet itself. Supposedly Cascade is actively lobbying NOCSAE to get this fixed. Not sure how accurate this is. As we are not playing this weekend will wait until next week to make a decision whether or not to exchange for older CPXR model which is a great lid.

Will not even consider the new STX helmet.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.


Also ironic that it coincides with the finish of the fall recruiting tournaments. Hmmmm.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/


It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I received an email back from noscae very quick reply regarding the CPX-R model it stated that at this time it is not included in their decertification so anyone with that model is safe for the moment. The investigation is ongoing though.


Can you please post a copy of that email response here? Or at the very least, the proper email address for NOCSEA that you received such a timely response. Thank you
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/


It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.


...and "your helmet failed...but we are not releasing some of the test results on some of OUR helmets". Wonder why that is.
Article is a good read.
Think everyone just needs to take a breath here...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.


Initial reviews are not overly positive on the Stx helmet either. This site gives it a B- due to weight and visibility. I would like to see the weights of all these helmets shown in pounds and ounces.

http://inlacrossewetrust.com/stx-releases-football-helmet-for-lacrosse/


Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/


It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.


...and "your helmet failed...but we are not releasing some of the test results on some of OUR helmets". Wonder why that is.
Article is a good read.
Think everyone just needs to take a breath here...


Thank you for this article. Whatever position or loyalty people have here, that article is fair and takes a grim position on STX's influences before the release of their helmet. On reflection I really am stunned if it is the case that Cascade and Warrior each have conducted contaminated quality testing, especially considering each use independent third party labs to do the ongoing testing of their products. Cascade has always been a very pro-active company on the safety front, and the article is fair to point out that Cascade originally FUNDED the NOCSAE study from which these standards are set. The Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator by their specs are certified conforming helmets. Neither is being made differently from the time they were originally tested to be certified.

So all in a day BOTH brands are running faulty quality testing at DIFFERENT independent labs (and in Cascade's instance two outside labs are used) and this SAME DAY is only days after STX/Shutt's flashy coming out? AND this SAME DAY is the start of the same week as the largest on-line retail week of the calendar year? I started thinking that once again the lacrosse brands have screwed up, and this negative press is well deserved. After reading that article I have a lot more restraint and am eyes wide open along with everyone else. What data were STX looking at, and what data were NOCSAE looking at and did this data conflict with other independent lab tests which passed the Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator? The consumer deserves to know. The FDA doesn't tell us a food is unsafe for no reason. NOCSAE needs to come out transparent on this now.

In other news, Lee Harvey Oswald killed Tupac. The Cubs just won their third World Series, and Ty Xanders is leaving lacrosse journalism to pursue a degree at Oxford on the Rhodes Scholarship.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 01:15 PM
Shades of WMDs in Iraq. We were told they were there. No pictures or physical evidence of them but they were supposed to be there. Hey STX, show us the data behind those flashy ads. They help your position, right?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 01:27 PM
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 02:22 PM
If anyone has an STX helmet, can you please weigh it and post that weight? I am curious how much heavier than the Cascade. If the STX is 30% or 50% better on impact protection but is heavier, I would tell my sons to get used to wearing a heavier helmet. I hate the trend of skimpier lacrosse gear in favor of fashion. You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.



Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 04:02 PM
So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.


It shows there is a huge issue with the NOCSAE if helmets that were fine for 2 years are now not certified.

Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.


Sorry to nitpick on a good post, but football helmets are not safe. Lots of flap these days in the NFL about concussion issues and how negative helmet safety data has been suppressed by the league and helmet manufacturers. STX partnered with Schutt, a football helmet manufacturer, to make the new helmet. Connecting the dots, you might conclude that this whole corporate warfare episode was orchestrated by Schutt.

Lots of questionable credibility here on the part of STX, Schutt and the NOCSAE. Perhaps Jonathan Gruber is advising on this deal and thinks the lacrosse consumer is stupid.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.



Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.


Cascade and Warrior are in a tough spot and can't move alone in responding to the decertification. What they say, how they say and when they say can be a huge legal liability for them. Radio silence is probably their only choice right now.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/26/14 05:46 PM
STX's test results, which they commissioned, are here (note, its a large pdf, I wouldn't try to read it a smart phone):

http://www.stx.com/helmet/assets/pd...formational_Report_Web_Release_10714.pdf

In short, it isn't a technical issue, but one of a failing helmet (impacts too severe). That said, it could very well be that the Cascade and Warrior weren't fit properly or some other odd reason. I have an R and I bought for my son for Xmas. At least I can return his for a full refund if Cascade doesn't come through.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/27/14 03:36 AM
I have a lot of respect for Cascade. I showed up on Cascade's doorstep unannounced one summer day and was given a full tour of their facility by one of their top designers. They could have easily told me that their are no tours or gift shop or company store and given me a list of local shops and sent me on my way. Instead, one of their top designers gave me an extensive tour of their manufacturing, design, and testing facilities - which I will never forget. Having seen their testing capabilities and the results of those tests, I have no doubt they are making the safest helmets possible. Something is really rotten here if Cascade takes a financial hit over some marketing ploy by another company.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/27/14 12:19 PM
Cascade fan or not the post earlier with the lab analysis is pretty damning. I rather doubt an independent lab would knowingly taint the testing baseline for helmets by strapping them on incorrectly inviting variance and taint to the results, but I could be wrong. What dog does two independent labs with their own reputations on the line have to gain in doing that or going along with an STX ploy? This is a really hard issue, and again I repeat my disappointment that silence is reigning at Cascade. Their company and reputation are on the line and time is an enemy. They at least need to go on record to dispute these lab tests or acknowledge them and state they will fix in days not weeks. This is no time the lawyer time, despite those liabilities the business mortal risk is a greater liability. After all, is Cascade makes great helmets like I believe they do and this is an administrative or testing environment taint matter just state a position.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/27/14 12:39 PM
Got email from Lacrosse Unlimited:

Taking pre-orders for Cascade's R for delivery after production resumes.

"Lacrosse Unlimited believes that the current Cascade R will be re-certified in the near future"

For what its worth...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/27/14 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit


If your child sustained ANY type of head injury while wearing the R or Warrior helmet you have the right to be very angry. You also should contact an attorney NOW.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/27/14 04:52 PM
Cascade has taken a position and dispute the decertification; go to their site: cascadelacrosse.com They're working on it and even asking R owners to register their helmet serial numbers and providing emailed updates. Here's the verbiage:

The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) has announced that the Cascade R model lacrosse helmet no longer complies with NOCSAE standard ND041 and that Cascade's certification of compliance on that helmet model only is invalid. All other Cascade models in the field are certified.

We are working with NOCSAE to clarify the concerns and appropriately address the issue. However, our first priority is always our loyal Cascade players.

Players not in immediate need of a certified helmet are encouraged to retain their helmet. Cascade is confident that we will be able to re-certify the helmet and that recertification could be a simple fix. We expect to communicate all available remedies as soon as possible, once approved by NOCSAE.

We will communicate with you through the email you provided here as updates become available and ultimately any next steps you will need to take to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.


REGISTER YOUR R HELMET HERE: R.CascadeLacrosse.com

If you have any questions you can always phone Customer Service at 800.537.1702.

We are communicating the following information to players and coaches:
• If you are a player that owns an R helmet and are not using it until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks, we will have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

• If you are a team that has R helmets and do not need to use them until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks we have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

• If you are a player that owns an R helmet and has games in November/Early December but do not own or have access to another certified helmet, call Cascade Customer Service at 800.537.1702. We can assist in connecting you with your preferred participating to understand if they have the ability to fit you with a certified helmet.

• If you are a team that owns R helmets and has games in November/Early December but do not have another certified helmet solution, please contact Cascade customer service at 800.537.1702 and we will do our best to find a lacrosse retailer to support your needs.

Detailed instructions on necessary steps will be made available on our web site www.CascadeLacrosse.com and provided to all relevant governing bodies as soon as they become available.

It is important to note that the Cascade R model has passed applicable NOCSAE standards at two separate, independent, NOCSAE-accredited test labs commissioned by the Company.

We apologize for the confusion and disruption caused by the recent announcement. We know you have trusted Cascade and our products for more than 28 years and we will do everything in our power to ensure that trust remains for many years to come.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 01:36 AM
It looks like Cascade and Warrior may have more than just a misunderstanding on their hands.

Here is a really in-depth article on how NOCSAE handled this incident:

http://24sevenlax.com/nocsae-nixes-r-and-regulator/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 02:25 AM
I think the sights should be targeted on NOCSAE. According to the article the data from Cascade sent to NOCSAE showed high failure rates based on helmet positioning and they allowed the certification to remain in force for over a year and a half. NOCSAE needs to be held accountable for their non action if you are one who believes their statement in the first place. Anyone who deals with safety certifications knows NOCSAE is completely at fault here and is looking for a scape goat. STX has also proven their helmet could not beat out the others without the back handed BS approach taken. [lacrosse]! STX.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
If anyone has an STX helmet, can you please weigh it and post that weight? I am curious how much heavier than the Cascade. If the STX is 30% or 50% better on impact protection but is heavier, I would tell my sons to get used to wearing a heavier helmet. I hate the trend of skimpier lacrosse gear in favor of fashion. You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.


Oh yes, please follow the path set by football and get bigger heavier helmets so the players can use them as weapons to hit with. It has worked out so well in football, what could go wrong.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 06:44 PM
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.


Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/29/14 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.


Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?


STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 12:21 PM
A couple years ago STX needed the Nike deal to save themselves from bankruptcy. They were worth so little Nike didn't even bother to buy them and agreed to use STX as a manufacturer for their equipment in lacrosse. It says all that STX makes equipment to be stamped with a swoosh to go on the retail shelf next to their equipment to survive. I don't know about conspiracy theories because this does involve independent labs that tested out Cascade and Warrior helmets, but I agree the timing of the NOCSAE announcement on the same calendar week as the STX Schutt helmet launch leaves a foul smell. It will also be interesting to see if Warrior sues Schutt for stepping into their lacrosse exclusive with D3O. Does not sound like a mess Nike would want to be anywhere near.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 02:44 PM
My son wears his Pro7 still and has had no issues. He got an R with his club team last year and wore it with no issues. Cascade has always been the standard in helmets for me. Im sure they will work it out.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 02:56 PM
My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I


If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I


If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.


The fitting is very important. There are far too many players buying the latest and greatest and not bothering to fit them properly, if they even fit at all. At a summer event, cascade reps set up a fitting area to help players understand how the adjustments work and in what order to do them to fit the helmet properly. It was not intuitive to most. Read or learn the proper fitting.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 11/30/14 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I


If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.


I have been a loyal Cascade customer for years, but what you wrote takes me to the other side. If this happened as you wrote, then Cascade helmets are not NOCSAE certified or safe. After a lot of thought and reading the excellent articles tagged by posters on this site, I conclude this is a manufacturer's problem for this reason: you cannot make an argument that a common use of this helmet with variance in the orientations (tilting the beak back or forth, and then clamping that user position secure with the chin straps) is anything but a manufacturer's deficiency. We can't say Cascade is in the clear because common use of their product under unsafe orientations that the design of the product does not constrict. In the design those variables cannot happen. I doubt any kid with a nose or other head trauma injury knew or should have known that helmet tilt -- however minor -- results in a non-certified and unsound product. Cascade didn't overtly recognize and warn against this until a few weeks ago, and even when they had for a brief time before the NOCSAE news it remains not adequate. The Cascade helmet is not a certified safe product because user strapped on orientations variance cannot acceptably go on. The design to AVOID this needs to be better for the product to be safe no different than the impact protection materials in the helmet need to have conforming qualities. Variables in end use means a non conforming helmet NOCSAE cannot keep certified.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/01/14 06:54 PM
You fail to realize the STX helmet and every other type of athletic headgear requires proper fit. Test data will produce a failing grade if not properly fitted during testing. The STX data also shows failing results when improperly fitted. Further, ANY headgear will not prevent concussions. For those suggesting SCHUTT and their football helmet background is beneficial to lacrosse helmet design I will refer you to football player concussion statistics. They are all over the internet.
STX / SCHUTT....no thanks. You can stay in football and try to improve the safety for the players you claim to attempt to protect. Try and improve on THAT product and admit that your greed made you try and cash in on the growth of our sport. Lacrosse is an honorable game played by a fraternity of great athletes. Your dishonorable attempt to hurt Cascade and Warrior will have you running back to the football field. Your inferior helmet should be properly fitted as you run away.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/01/14 07:49 PM
Heard throgh the grapevine that the CEO of Schutt is also on the NOCSAE board.

If that is true the testing is not worth the paper it is printed on an a complete embarrassment to the sport.

Can anyone verify if that is accurate?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/01/14 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.


Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?


STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.


Not sure why STX is the bad guy here. As a consumer I want the safest equipment possible. If STX did not report the failures to NOCSAE and it came out in the future that they ignored this, what would that say for their integrity for consumer safety? Yes, it appears that they used this opportunity to throw Cascade and Warrior under the bus, however NOCSAE did not just take their word on the failure. Read the article in the link above. NOCSAE immediately conducted their own certification tests and analyzed all of the test data from the manufactures. Based on those results the helmets were de-certified.

STX is not responsible for the helmets failing the certification tests. They are responsible for making the consumers aware that the helmets that they purchased may not be as safe as they expected.

Is this the LOW ROAD? Maybe. I don't know. (Not sure I care) Bottom line is the consumers were at risk and Cascade and Warrior weren't saying anything.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.


Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?


STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.


Not sure why STX is the bad guy here. As a consumer I want the safest equipment possible. If STX did not report the failures to NOCSAE and it came out in the future that they ignored this, what would that say for their integrity for consumer safety? Yes, it appears that they used this opportunity to throw Cascade and Warrior under the bus, however NOCSAE did not just take their word on the failure. Read the article in the link above. NOCSAE immediately conducted their own certification tests and analyzed all of the test data from the manufactures. Based on those results the helmets were de-certified.

STX is not responsible for the helmets failing the certification tests. They are responsible for making the consumers aware that the helmets that they purchased may not be as safe as they expected.

Is this the LOW ROAD? Maybe. I don't know. (Not sure I care) Bottom line is the consumers were at risk and Cascade and Warrior weren't saying anything.


I appreciate your thoughts and I want the safest equipment possible as well.
Here is the issue with STX/SCHUTT
The data STX referred to and you have cited is incomplete. Independent labs have also certified the Cascade R as being safe. It appears the failure reports generated by specific labs were being investigated by Cascade and NOCSAE prior to STX using the partial results in their advertising campaign. STX then figured out that if they report the failures (disputed due to tilt position during testing) to NOCSAE and create public panic then they would damage the other brands. It seems to have worked on those that take the report and decertification on face value and refuse to put the pieces together. They also are preying on the parents who innocently want the best and safest equipment for their kids. That is the low road reference because the report appears to be incomplete and inaccurate. There has not been a single case of injury reported due to Cascade or Warrior helmet failure in the year plus the R has been used by many thousands of players.
Remember data and reports can be manipulated to favor a company, organization or government.
This whole issue wreaks of personal interest and corruption. You decide.....
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Heard throgh the grapevine that the CEO of Schutt is also on the NOCSAE board.

If that is true the testing is not worth the paper it is printed on an a complete embarrassment to the sport.

Can anyone verify if that is accurate?


Yes, it is true.

http://nocsae.org/board-of-directors/

On this list the industry seats are one Schutt executive and one Nike executive.

I again dispute what some have written here: there should not be such a thing as non-intended use or incorrect use of a helmet. A helmet must be designed to strap on in one usable condition that is correct. The tightening dial for a helmet should not be designed to lock in tilt or other non-intended use. We have not seen this issue with football or hockey helmets, and the dynamic of kids being able to manipulate and then secure an unsafe positioning of a Cascade helmet makes that same helmet non-conforming to the NOCSAE standard under those usage conditions. NOCSAE is not the bad guy for doing their job, but can be blamed for taking so long to point this out.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Heard throgh the grapevine that the CEO of Schutt is also on the NOCSAE board.

If that is true the testing is not worth the paper it is printed on an a complete embarrassment to the sport.

Can anyone verify if that is accurate?


Yes, it is true.

http://nocsae.org/board-of-directors/

On this list the industry seats are one Schutt executive and one Nike executive.

I again dispute what some have written here: there should not be such a thing as non-intended use or incorrect use of a helmet. A helmet must be designed to strap on in one usable condition that is correct. The tightening dial for a helmet should not be designed to lock in tilt or other non-intended use. We have not seen this issue with football or hockey helmets, and the dynamic of kids being able to manipulate and then secure an unsafe positioning of a Cascade helmet makes that same helmet non-conforming to the NOCSAE standard under those usage conditions. NOCSAE is not the bad guy for doing their job, but can be blamed for taking so long to point this out.


Your statement is inaccurate again sir. We DO see these same issues in football, hockey and every other sport requiring protective headgear. The issue of improper use and fit is so common EVERY manufacturer of protective headgear prints WARNINGS against said practice. In fact these warnings state that DEATH may occur if fitting is not proper.
Your defense of STX, SCHUTT and NOCSAE is misplaced and your references inaccurate. Further, your constant reference to football helmet safety would be appropriate if it were not for the massive amount of head injuries sustained by players every day!! It also gives the appearance that possibly you have a vested interest in STX/SCHUTT causing your dander to be up. Either way I welcome your thoughts and this community clearly can read between the lines.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 12:31 PM
I have Cascade helmets for my three sons, but I don't buy conspiracy theories. I called NOCSAE myself as a parent and spoke to David Halstead at NOCSAE's impact labs for about 15 minutes. That is 15 minutes at a time when they can't spare 15 seconds. The mud slinging here at STX is somewhat misplaced. There is no doubt their pre-launch campaign was negative and viscious, but I keep reminding myself that the foundation of their arguments comes from independent lab test data. Warnings to not wear helmets improperly is not a perfect hedge...if a helmet can be manipulated and secured into a tilt that is unsafe or unsound, then so is the product insofar as NOCSAE is concerned, period.

I concur with your point that the relative number of head injuries sustained in football is much greater than in lacrosse because there is legal head on hitting on every play. A good bit of the attribution for football head injuries is the sport itself is unsafe. I don't let my kids play football for that reason. My point is if STX is a safe and conforming helmet but is heavier than non-certified helmets, I would fault toward safer over lighter. I also posted that lacrosse players seem to have too much of a love affair with lighter equipment. Over the years it has thinned out the protective gear and lessened the safety of body armour.

I actually saw the tested product at Boys Latin this spring, and was also handed the D3O orange foam component part not screwed into a helmet. I was amazed how heavy it was considering how foamy and airy it felt. That led to my question as to what the relative weights are for the Cascade R versus the Schutt/STX. All else likely being the same with weight of the helmet shell and face grille, the weight differential is likely the protective foam. To me the D3O felt like and on their website looks like more of an industrial application material than a density and weight material for sporting head gear. It is just as easy to foam carbons or other polymers. It looks to me like STX and Schutt took a ready fire aim approach to the design and used some poorly suited materials because of weight.

So again, I am no big fan of STX but believe that this is more than an administrative bump for Cascade to clear. I like Cascade products and expect they will modify the design so that non-intended end use ranges can be sufficiently reduced. It won't be enough for the position that parents spend an hour noodling with a Cascade R or go to a Cascade tent at an event to get to the proper conforming fit like it is some bespoke Saville Row suit, because it isn't. Commercial helmets cannot be bespoke fitted products save for the back of head rim tighten belt.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 01:06 PM
One more thing and this is a swipe at NOCSAE...I include myself in a large set of parents who have 1. liked Cascade products for years, 2. had kids playing in Cascade helmets as recently as two weeks ago, and 3. now know that NOCSAE at least knew of some safety concerns or bells to ring at least months ago. Some safety warning from NOCSAE -- and not from Cascade's website diagram that suddenly appeared in early November -- about head tilted fitting being non-conforming would have been good before the biggest club play month of the year.

If you look at NOCSAE's website you do learn that companies like Cascade and STX pay a very rich royalty for each product item sold with a NOCSAE certified seal to NOCSAE. The idea is that NOCSAE keeps up with the resources to monitor and regulate the industry. The more industry grows through products and volume, the richer the royalty stream to NOCSAE. I would love to see NOCSAE financials and would guess they cash flow very well. But then it appears that NOCSAE is a very small group in the Midwest of a few people who answer their own phones. Do they have NOCSAE contractors in the field doing ongoing quality testing and confirming? Did they only first get off the blocks when STX tattled on Cascade and Warrior, then hustle out to the local Lax Unlimited or [lacrosse]'s and buy some helmet samples to catch up on what they were not really monitoring for over 16 months? If there were no Schutt/STX helmet and no negative ad campaign, would NOCSAE have stood still another 16+ months on this without ongoing testing? Would we still have had kids wearing these helmets in an unsound fit not knowing the dangers for another 16 months?

Ok, NOCSAE is not a government regulator but they are a private industry regulator well paid by the same industry. All NOCSAE standards come out of research and testing where the brands industry is the underwriter. All ongoing testing and assurance that the NOCSAE seal means something is a good faith bargain and it now looks like it is reasonable to ask this question: had NOCSAE allowed itself to keep cashing royalties without keeping up with the demands of all their certified industry products? When was the last time NOCASE did field tests and random samples of Cascade R helmets in the 16+ months prior to November 2014.

The best question for NOCSAE now is did you allow yourselves to be outgunned in the field to the point where the industry you are supposed to regulate is left to self police? If the answer is yes, then drastic reforms are needed.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.


Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?


STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.


Not sure why STX is the bad guy here. As a consumer I want the safest equipment possible. If STX did not report the failures to NOCSAE and it came out in the future that they ignored this, what would that say for their integrity for consumer safety? Yes, it appears that they used this opportunity to throw Cascade and Warrior under the bus, however NOCSAE did not just take their word on the failure. Read the article in the link above. NOCSAE immediately conducted their own certification tests and analyzed all of the test data from the manufactures. Based on those results the helmets were de-certified.

STX is not responsible for the helmets failing the certification tests. They are responsible for making the consumers aware that the helmets that they purchased may not be as safe as they expected.

Is this the LOW ROAD? Maybe. I don't know. (Not sure I care) Bottom line is the consumers were at risk and Cascade and Warrior weren't saying anything.


I appreciate your thoughts and I want the safest equipment possible as well.
Here is the issue with STX/SCHUTT
The data STX referred to and you have cited is incomplete. Independent labs have also certified the Cascade R as being safe. It appears the failure reports generated by specific labs were being investigated by Cascade and NOCSAE prior to STX using the partial results in their advertising campaign. STX then figured out that if they report the failures (disputed due to tilt position during testing) to NOCSAE and create public panic then they would damage the other brands. It seems to have worked on those that take the report and decertification on face value and refuse to put the pieces together. They also are preying on the parents who innocently want the best and safest equipment for their kids. That is the low road reference because the report appears to be incomplete and inaccurate. There has not been a single case of injury reported due to Cascade or Warrior helmet failure in the year plus the R has been used by many thousands of players.
Remember data and reports can be manipulated to favor a company, organization or government.
This whole issue wreaks of personal interest and corruption. You decide.....


Ok I see the your point. Yes, the intentions of STX were less than admirable.

However the certification tests and data are still being investigated and Cascade and Warrior will not be vindicated until those helmets are re-certified. If they simply discontinue them the question of proper certification testing will always remain.

With respect to the fit and tilt issue, NOCSAE has stated that the standard that is used begins by testing the helmets using the manufactures fit and adjustment recommendations. They then perform additional testing using offset adjustments (which may or may not be the correct fit). The point is if the consumer can wear the helmet tilted forward or back it still needs to provide adequate protection in both positions.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
One more thing and this is a swipe at NOCSAE...I include myself in a large set of parents who have 1. liked Cascade products for years, 2. had kids playing in Cascade helmets as recently as two weeks ago, and 3. now know that NOCSAE at least knew of some safety concerns or bells to ring at least months ago. Some safety warning from NOCSAE -- and not from Cascade's website diagram that suddenly appeared in early November -- about head tilted fitting being non-conforming would have been good before the biggest club play month of the year.

If you look at NOCSAE's website you do learn that companies like Cascade and STX pay a very rich royalty for each product item sold with a NOCSAE certified seal to NOCSAE. The idea is that NOCSAE keeps up with the resources to monitor and regulate the industry. The more industry grows through products and volume, the richer the royalty stream to NOCSAE. I would love to see NOCSAE financials and would guess they cash flow very well. But then it appears that NOCSAE is a very small group in the Midwest of a few people who answer their own phones. Do they have NOCSAE contractors in the field doing ongoing quality testing and confirming? Did they only first get off the blocks when STX tattled on Cascade and Warrior, then hustle out to the local Lax Unlimited or [lacrosse]'s and buy some helmet samples to catch up on what they were not really monitoring for over 16 months? If there were no Schutt/STX helmet and no negative ad campaign, would NOCSAE have stood still another 16+ months on this without ongoing testing? Would we still have had kids wearing these helmets in an unsound fit not knowing the dangers for another 16 months?

Ok, NOCSAE is not a government regulator but they are a private industry regulator well paid by the same industry. All NOCSAE standards come out of research and testing where the brands industry is the underwriter. All ongoing testing and assurance that the NOCSAE seal means something is a good faith bargain and it now looks like it is reasonable to ask this question: had NOCSAE allowed itself to keep cashing royalties without keeping up with the demands of all their certified industry products? When was the last time NOCASE did field tests and random samples of Cascade R helmets in the 16+ months prior to November 2014.

The best question for NOCSAE now is did you allow yourselves to be outgunned in the field to the point where the industry you are supposed to regulate is left to self police? If the answer is yes, then drastic reforms are needed.


Excellent post. You raise several poignant questions that need to be answered.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 03:08 PM
In one of the above statements it was mentioned that the fit of these helmets is important. Well I have to say when you go to a retailer and buy one of these helmets being a lacrosse helmet or a football helmet and so on, half the time if not most of the time the person helping to fit you with these helmets doesn't really know how to fit you. My son was basically asked is it comfortable or shake your head to see if it moves to much. I think the companies of these helmets should send out trained sales persons to the retailers to not only give product knowledge of what they are going to sell but also certify them as fit tested specialist once they get trained on how to do so. This will ensure that the helmets are properly fit and will eliminate any of these so called fit issues.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In one of the above statements it was mentioned that the fit of these helmets is important. Well I have to say when you go to a retailer and buy one of these helmets being a lacrosse helmet or a football helmet and so on, half the time if not most of the time the person helping to fit you with these helmets doesn't really know how to fit you. My son was basically asked is it comfortable or shake your head to see if it moves to much. I think the companies of these helmets should send out trained sales persons to the retailers to not only give product knowledge of what they are going to sell but also certify them as fit tested specialist once they get trained on how to do so. This will ensure that the helmets are properly fit and will eliminate any of these so called fit issues.


That is an excellent suggested fix. Cascade can have helmets "certified fitted" stamped in addition when kids take to a Cascade registered rep or authorized dealer. If Cascade can train people in the field and have that fulfillment in retail store locations I would hope NOCSAE would give a serious consideration to that.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 05:00 PM
Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.


Guess my kid is getting a STX helmet for Christmas!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.


"it was NOCSAE’s position that the voiding of the certification was premised almost entirely upon the fact that neither company could support certification of the model based on their own internal test data in the first place."

This is nail in coffin stuff for Cascade and for the Warrior helmets.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 05:57 PM
While the approach taken by STX seems incredibly self serving I appreciate the data turned over. I don't appreciate the fact that NOCSAE seems to have zero liability in this situation despite being the SOLE regulator of helmet safety. It's also quite disturbing that although NOCSAE apparently does minimal if any field testing or actual inspecting yet receives millions in royalties for their certification and safety seal. The single entity that needs to be investigated and possibly replaced is NOCSAE. Our kids have been playing with these allegedly dangerous helmets for over 18 months, all the while bearing the NOCSAE seal. Disgusting!! Why is there not more outrage pointed squarely at NOCSAE. We should all be calling for resignations and certification responsibility changes moving forward to an organization that is involved and thorough. Thoughts?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
While the approach taken by STX seems incredibly self serving I appreciate the data turned over. I don't appreciate the fact that NOCSAE seems to have zero liability in this situation despite being the SOLE regulator of helmet safety. It's also quite disturbing that although NOCSAE apparently does minimal if any field testing or actual inspecting yet receives millions in royalties for their certification and safety seal. The single entity that needs to be investigated and possibly replaced is NOCSAE. Our kids have been playing with these allegedly dangerous helmets for over 18 months, all the while bearing the NOCSAE seal. Disgusting!! Why is there not more outrage pointed squarely at NOCSAE. We should all be calling for resignations and certification responsibility changes moving forward to an organization that is involved and thorough. Thoughts?


Sounds like the sound argument you are making leads us to (gulp) a Federal oversight agency for sports equipment safety. Maybe this falls into the arms of OSHA. While I am never a supporter of more government, here is an instance of a crying need for truly independent safety commission and not an industry funded self regulatory body.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 07:01 PM
Every time someone farts out a new piece of colored mesh or dyes a stick, Inside Lacrosse is on it like stink on you know what. Where are they now? I would argue this is the biggest gear news in the last decade. Virtually every helmet used in the NCAA last year ruled unsafe and all they have done is issue a few press releases.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
While the approach taken by STX seems incredibly self serving I appreciate the data turned over. I don't appreciate the fact that NOCSAE seems to have zero liability in this situation despite being the SOLE regulator of helmet safety. It's also quite disturbing that although NOCSAE apparently does minimal if any field testing or actual inspecting yet receives millions in royalties for their certification and safety seal. The single entity that needs to be investigated and possibly replaced is NOCSAE. Our kids have been playing with these allegedly dangerous helmets for over 18 months, all the while bearing the NOCSAE seal. Disgusting!! Why is there not more outrage pointed squarely at NOCSAE. We should all be calling for resignations and certification responsibility changes moving forward to an organization that is involved and thorough. Thoughts?


Sounds like the sound argument you are making leads us to (gulp) a Federal oversight agency for sports equipment safety. Maybe this falls into the arms of OSHA. While I am never a supporter of more government, here is an instance of a crying need for truly independent safety commission and not an industry funded self regulatory body.


Federal inclusion is certainly not the solution. They can't even regulate themselves. Lol. I think there should be more than one acceptable safety seal to keep them honest with US Lacrosse being the over sight failsafe. After all we all pay membership fees to belong. Our players safety should be their paramount concern. I agree NOCSAE must go to be replaced by a couple of safety management companies to be over seen by US Lacrosse. Ultimately they are the governing body right?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 07:49 PM
Test results in a controlled environment are all well and good, but I would like to know exactly how that translates to a real life situation. What exactly is the risk posed by wearing a Cascade R and Warrior Regulator? How much of a percent greater is that risk over the STX? Layman's terms would be helpful here. Further, how was the certification standard developed and does it make sense?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Test results in a controlled environment are all well and good, but I would like to know exactly how that translates to a real life situation. What exactly is the risk posed by wearing a Cascade R and Warrior Regulator? How much of a percent greater is that risk over the STX? Layman's terms would be helpful here. Further, how was the certification standard developed and does it make sense?


Good point
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 10:50 PM
After reading this article, how much longer before we find out that the CPX-R, Pro-7 and others with the "seven technology" or similar are also de-certified?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 11:24 PM
Inside Lacrosse along with every other 'lacrosse media' group has skin in the game. They survive off of the advertising dollars from Cascade, Warrior, etc. Its sad that a small blog (24 seven lax) is the only person doing any investigating, speaking to NOCSAE, speaking to STX and writing articles. The self proclaimed Source of the Sport is no where to be found... its a joke. This is the biggest thing to hit the sport in the last several years and no one wants to talk about it. People have tournaments and other things going on now and don't know what to do. There are even D1 teams that have no clue what is going on and their 2015 practices are about 30 days away.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/02/14 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
After reading this article, how much longer before we find out that the CPX-R, Pro-7 and others with the "seven technology" or similar are also de-certified?


I meant this article:
http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 11:33 AM
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 12:49 PM
In the spirit of we are all in this mess together, in the spirit of this Festivus holiday season let's commence the Airing of Grievances. At this point we have seen the data and the timeline and the only fair conclusion is that NOCSAE bungles and Cascade and Warrior had at least deficient and less than thorough ongoing testing. That has been outed well by the informed posters on this board and by the excellent articles in 24sevenlax.

1. Cascade and Warrior retailers
If you a family customer of a local lacrosse store where you have bought gear, advice being communicated through Cascade and Warrior through those channels to you is hold tight. Cascade and Warrior are talking it over with NOCSAE and this will all blow over sometime soon over the next few weeks. This is clearly a NOCSAE error or oversight and also an STX conspiracy. How about this LaxWorld, LU, et. al. to lacrosse parents: Lacrosse sucks. It it too expensive for the poor, and it is barely affordable for the middle class and then it is just another country club fee equivalent. For the latter, get your big boy pants on and buy a certified helmet to keep your kids safe. It costs as much as the greens fee you will pay twice this week before caddy tips and cheaper than the dinner tab you will pick up when out with your wife and the people she calls friends.

2. US Lacrosse
Somebody turn off the lights and the phones when you leave tonite. Absentee landlord over the game.

3. NOCSAE
See #2.

4. Club and events guys
We have 3d's response to this, which is basically the equivalent of NASCAR saying we have a race this weekend, and if anyone wants to drive their stock car with brakes we know are faulty, then sign this waiver and all comers welcome. It is as if the only duty of care expected of lacrosse parents is to provide a debit card that will keep swiping. I am curious what the status quo is with other major club or events lacrosse organizations. If 3d has set the standard, this is a weak standard. In terms of being stewards of the game, also see #2 at least as far as 3d is concerned.

5. Bleeping high school coaches.
Gee, did your public high school or private prep school have you order colored Cascade Rs? Mine did too! Actually, my son's school has home and away Cascade Rs and they are both non-whites. Did high school coaches never get word of sticker wraps? Then a kid can re-sticker his helmet between club or school seasons. It would make the game somewhat more affordable for kids who want to play high school. I may go to my grave believing the best under the table deal is from Cascade or retailers and these high school guys to move some colored helmets. I am yet to meet a lacrosse mom or dad who is anything but p.o'ed about buying a yellow, blue, red or other colored lacrosse helmet.

6. NCAA coaches
If a high profile NCAA coach has commented on this atrocity, I would be all eyes to read it or ears to hear it. In the throat of this the only news of the day is one article penned by a lacrosse college coach making soothing comments to parents about encouraging kids to play other school sports. See again #2.

7. Lawyers
Admit it, we all hate them. If you are one admit that you hate yourself and would run away with the blond hostess at your TGI Fridays in a New [lacrosse] minute save for the moral issues surrounding that. Behind every great class action or other civil suit is a lawyer with prior experience in the subject matter. Give some bad paid advice today -- the sweet nothings from Cascade and Warrior, the 3d letter with all the small font disclaimer legalese -- and you are the chosen counsel for the protracted and expensive messes this will create saying nothing of the continued risks to the kids playing this game. I call that the lawyers' forward employment act. Have some balls counselors...your clients are asking for comfort letters to keep a status quo that we know is unsafe and unsound. $400 an hour to you makes that a risk you can live with?

7. Us, the bleeping lacrosse parents
In the recent couple weeks we have learned that Cascade and Warrior are at least incompetent, have communicated half truths to the retailers about this being no biggie which should blow over soon. The retail guys repeat that to you, and the next layer of comfort is the club and events guys saying for now just wear non-certified helmets because hey...we can't even remember the last time we bothered to to a US Lacrosse sanctioned event under USL insurance policies (snort, snarfell, giggle). We privately insure anyways and what's more fun this winter, box lacrosse or pilates for your sons? Just poke at the alpha dad in all of us since most dads were either insecure junior varsity guys in high school or lacrosse players from back in the day when lacrosse was basically a club sport masquerading as a real college sport, and the tradesmen (see #1 through #6) know that hits us where our macho pride can really hurt.

Really, it is ok to put away that circa 1970s Hopkins 'ship ring, stop listening to all the cheerleaders (see #1 through #6) and think about your kids. I am middle class with three kids playing the game and I am getting new helmets this weekend. That sucks. This sport is always filling my email box and voice mail with exciting opportunities to part with $150-$250 a day playing lacrosse events of some kind, club fees due reminders, club apparel gear for new seasons, clinics or all those flattering and exclusive prospect days or showcases. The bottom line is if your kid loves lacrosse like mine do, you suck it up. I hate it when clubs do winter training in 20 degree weather for Sundays in December through January. That means 4-6 broken heads that need to be replaced. I am probably a lot like many of you. I watch the sales and inventory stuff at home so that I can have a few replacements of items that will wear and break. Think about this...if a club coach called and said Hopkins wants your boy but they also need to evaluate him on their field at a prospect day. 99% plus percent of the lacrosse parents still reading my drivel would pay that prospect day fee and pay for travel to get yourself and your son there. You don't like it, because Petro and the rest can and should damn straight evaluate kids at tournaments and could invite prospects at no cost to a prospect day (or for a $40 type "tryout" equivalent fee) but they don't want to because they want that money for their assistant coaching staff. From you. Ok, my assumption is nearly all of us would do that. Because you believe it is consequential if you passed on it. Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential, and your son's health is a lot more consequential than a roster spot at Hopkins or anywhere else. Think about the day your son was born and the greatest gifts he keeps giving you for being his son, and put on your big boy pants and do what is needed to keep him safe because you love him.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 01:47 PM
Very good...truth
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In the spirit of we are all in this mess together, in the spirit of this Festivus holiday season let's commence the Airing of Grievances. At this point we have seen the data and the timeline and the only fair conclusion is that NOCSAE bungles and Cascade and Warrior had at least deficient and less than thorough ongoing testing. That has been outed well by the informed posters on this board and by the excellent articles in 24sevenlax.

1. Cascade and Warrior retailers
If you a family customer of a local lacrosse store where you have bought gear, advice being communicated through Cascade and Warrior through those channels to you is hold tight. Cascade and Warrior are talking it over with NOCSAE and this will all blow over sometime soon over the next few weeks. This is clearly a NOCSAE error or oversight and also an STX conspiracy. How about this LaxWorld, LU, et. al. to lacrosse parents: Lacrosse sucks. It it too expensive for the poor, and it is barely affordable for the middle class and then it is just another country club fee equivalent. For the latter, get your big boy pants on and buy a certified helmet to keep your kids safe. It costs as much as the greens fee you will pay twice this week before caddy tips and cheaper than the dinner tab you will pick up when out with your wife and the people she calls friends.

2. US Lacrosse
Somebody turn off the lights and the phones when you leave tonite. Absentee landlord over the game.

3. NOCSAE
See #2.

4. Club and events guys
We have 3d's response to this, which is basically the equivalent of NASCAR saying we have a race this weekend, and if anyone wants to drive their stock car with brakes we know are faulty, then sign this waiver and all comers welcome. It is as if the only duty of care expected of lacrosse parents is to provide a debit card that will keep swiping. I am curious what the status quo is with other major club or events lacrosse organizations. If 3d has set the standard, this is a weak standard. In terms of being stewards of the game, also see #2 at least as far as 3d is concerned.

5. Bleeping high school coaches.
Gee, did your public high school or private prep school have you order colored Cascade Rs? Mine did too! Actually, my son's school has home and away Cascade Rs and they are both non-whites. Did high school coaches never get word of sticker wraps? Then a kid can re-sticker his helmet between club or school seasons. It would make the game somewhat more affordable for kids who want to play high school. I may go to my grave believing the best under the table deal is from Cascade or retailers and these high school guys to move some colored helmets. I am yet to meet a lacrosse mom or dad who is anything but p.o'ed about buying a yellow, blue, red or other colored lacrosse helmet.

6. NCAA coaches
If a high profile NCAA coach has commented on this atrocity, I would be all eyes to read it or ears to hear it. In the throat of this the only news of the day is one article penned by a lacrosse college coach making soothing comments to parents about encouraging kids to play other school sports. See again #2.

7. Lawyers
Admit it, we all hate them. If you are one admit that you hate yourself and would run away with the blond hostess at your TGI Fridays in a New [lacrosse] minute save for the moral issues surrounding that. Behind every great class action or other civil suit is a lawyer with prior experience in the subject matter. Give some bad paid advice today -- the sweet nothings from Cascade and Warrior, the 3d letter with all the small font disclaimer legalese -- and you are the chosen counsel for the protracted and expensive messes this will create saying nothing of the continued risks to the kids playing this game. I call that the lawyers' forward employment act. Have some balls counselors...your clients are asking for comfort letters to keep a status quo that we know is unsafe and unsound. $400 an hour to you makes that a risk you can live with?

7. Us, the bleeping lacrosse parents
In the recent couple weeks we have learned that Cascade and Warrior are at least incompetent, have communicated half truths to the retailers about this being no biggie which should blow over soon. The retail guys repeat that to you, and the next layer of comfort is the club and events guys saying for now just wear non-certified helmets because hey...we can't even remember the last time we bothered to to a US Lacrosse sanctioned event under USL insurance policies (snort, snarfell, giggle). We privately insure anyways and what's more fun this winter, box lacrosse or pilates for your sons? Just poke at the alpha dad in all of us since most dads were either insecure junior varsity guys in high school or lacrosse players from back in the day when lacrosse was basically a club sport masquerading as a real college sport, and the tradesmen (see #1 through #6) know that hits us where our macho pride can really hurt.

Really, it is ok to put away that circa 1970s Hopkins 'ship ring, stop listening to all the cheerleaders (see #1 through #6) and think about your kids. I am middle class with three kids playing the game and I am getting new helmets this weekend. That sucks. This sport is always filling my email box and voice mail with exciting opportunities to part with $150-$250 a day playing lacrosse events of some kind, club fees due reminders, club apparel gear for new seasons, clinics or all those flattering and exclusive prospect days or showcases. The bottom line is if your kid loves lacrosse like mine do, you suck it up. I hate it when clubs do winter training in 20 degree weather for Sundays in December through January. That means 4-6 broken heads that need to be replaced. I am probably a lot like many of you. I watch the sales and inventory stuff at home so that I can have a few replacements of items that will wear and break. Think about this...if a club coach called and said Hopkins wants your boy but they also need to evaluate him on their field at a prospect day. 99% plus percent of the lacrosse parents still reading my drivel would pay that prospect day fee and pay for travel to get yourself and your son there. You don't like it, because Petro and the rest can and should damn straight evaluate kids at tournaments and could invite prospects at no cost to a prospect day (or for a $40 type "tryout" equivalent fee) but they don't want to because they want that money for their assistant coaching staff. From you. Ok, my assumption is nearly all of us would do that. Because you believe it is consequential if you passed on it. Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential, and your son's health is a lot more consequential than a roster spot at Hopkins or anywhere else. Think about the day your son was born and the greatest gifts he keeps giving you for being his son, and put on your big boy pants and do what is needed to keep him safe because you love him.


After reading through your post (as unbelievable as that is) I'm stuck on this:

"Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential"

Really? You're that certain of the charge and put so much faith in the banana republic of a certification regime?

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are inherently unsafe in on-field situations and/or are materially less safe than the STX creation.

Enjoy spending $750 this weekend, assuming 3 helmets for your brood. I'll sign a waiver and reserve judgment for more concrete information.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 01:57 PM
I now need LASIK from reading that novel on my iPhone.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In the spirit of we are all in this mess together, in the spirit of this Festivus holiday season let's commence the Airing of Grievances. At this point we have seen the data and the timeline and the only fair conclusion is that NOCSAE bungles and Cascade and Warrior had at least deficient and less than thorough ongoing testing. That has been outed well by the informed posters on this board and by the excellent articles in 24sevenlax.

1. Cascade and Warrior retailers
If you a family customer of a local lacrosse store where you have bought gear, advice being communicated through Cascade and Warrior through those channels to you is hold tight. Cascade and Warrior are talking it over with NOCSAE and this will all blow over sometime soon over the next few weeks. This is clearly a NOCSAE error or oversight and also an STX conspiracy. How about this LaxWorld, LU, et. al. to lacrosse parents: Lacrosse sucks. It it too expensive for the poor, and it is barely affordable for the middle class and then it is just another country club fee equivalent. For the latter, get your big boy pants on and buy a certified helmet to keep your kids safe. It costs as much as the greens fee you will pay twice this week before caddy tips and cheaper than the dinner tab you will pick up when out with your wife and the people she calls friends.

2. US Lacrosse
Somebody turn off the lights and the phones when you leave tonite. Absentee landlord over the game.

3. NOCSAE
See #2.

4. Club and events guys
We have 3d's response to this, which is basically the equivalent of NASCAR saying we have a race this weekend, and if anyone wants to drive their stock car with brakes we know are faulty, then sign this waiver and all comers welcome. It is as if the only duty of care expected of lacrosse parents is to provide a debit card that will keep swiping. I am curious what the status quo is with other major club or events lacrosse organizations. If 3d has set the standard, this is a weak standard. In terms of being stewards of the game, also see #2 at least as far as 3d is concerned.

5. Bleeping high school coaches.
Gee, did your public high school or private prep school have you order colored Cascade Rs? Mine did too! Actually, my son's school has home and away Cascade Rs and they are both non-whites. Did high school coaches never get word of sticker wraps? Then a kid can re-sticker his helmet between club or school seasons. It would make the game somewhat more affordable for kids who want to play high school. I may go to my grave believing the best under the table deal is from Cascade or retailers and these high school guys to move some colored helmets. I am yet to meet a lacrosse mom or dad who is anything but p.o'ed about buying a yellow, blue, red or other colored lacrosse helmet.

6. NCAA coaches
If a high profile NCAA coach has commented on this atrocity, I would be all eyes to read it or ears to hear it. In the throat of this the only news of the day is one article penned by a lacrosse college coach making soothing comments to parents about encouraging kids to play other school sports. See again #2.

7. Lawyers
Admit it, we all hate them. If you are one admit that you hate yourself and would run away with the blond hostess at your TGI Fridays in a New [lacrosse] minute save for the moral issues surrounding that. Behind every great class action or other civil suit is a lawyer with prior experience in the subject matter. Give some bad paid advice today -- the sweet nothings from Cascade and Warrior, the 3d letter with all the small font disclaimer legalese -- and you are the chosen counsel for the protracted and expensive messes this will create saying nothing of the continued risks to the kids playing this game. I call that the lawyers' forward employment act. Have some balls counselors...your clients are asking for comfort letters to keep a status quo that we know is unsafe and unsound. $400 an hour to you makes that a risk you can live with?

7. Us, the bleeping lacrosse parents
In the recent couple weeks we have learned that Cascade and Warrior are at least incompetent, have communicated half truths to the retailers about this being no biggie which should blow over soon. The retail guys repeat that to you, and the next layer of comfort is the club and events guys saying for now just wear non-certified helmets because hey...we can't even remember the last time we bothered to to a US Lacrosse sanctioned event under USL insurance policies (snort, snarfell, giggle). We privately insure anyways and what's more fun this winter, box lacrosse or pilates for your sons? Just poke at the alpha dad in all of us since most dads were either insecure junior varsity guys in high school or lacrosse players from back in the day when lacrosse was basically a club sport masquerading as a real college sport, and the tradesmen (see #1 through #6) know that hits us where our macho pride can really hurt.

Really, it is ok to put away that circa 1970s Hopkins 'ship ring, stop listening to all the cheerleaders (see #1 through #6) and think about your kids. I am middle class with three kids playing the game and I am getting new helmets this weekend. That sucks. This sport is always filling my email box and voice mail with exciting opportunities to part with $150-$250 a day playing lacrosse events of some kind, club fees due reminders, club apparel gear for new seasons, clinics or all those flattering and exclusive prospect days or showcases. The bottom line is if your kid loves lacrosse like mine do, you suck it up. I hate it when clubs do winter training in 20 degree weather for Sundays in December through January. That means 4-6 broken heads that need to be replaced. I am probably a lot like many of you. I watch the sales and inventory stuff at home so that I can have a few replacements of items that will wear and break. Think about this...if a club coach called and said Hopkins wants your boy but they also need to evaluate him on their field at a prospect day. 99% plus percent of the lacrosse parents still reading my drivel would pay that prospect day fee and pay for travel to get yourself and your son there. You don't like it, because Petro and the rest can and should damn straight evaluate kids at tournaments and could invite prospects at no cost to a prospect day (or for a $40 type "tryout" equivalent fee) but they don't want to because they want that money for their assistant coaching staff. From you. Ok, my assumption is nearly all of us would do that. Because you believe it is consequential if you passed on it. Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential, and your son's health is a lot more consequential than a roster spot at Hopkins or anywhere else. Think about the day your son was born and the greatest gifts he keeps giving you for being his son, and put on your big boy pants and do what is needed to keep him safe because you love him.


After reading through your post (as unbelievable as that is) I'm stuck on this:

"Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential"

Really? You're that certain of the charge and put so much faith in the banana republic of a certification regime?

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are inherently unsafe in on-field situations and/or are materially less safe than the STX creation.

Enjoy spending $750 this weekend, assuming 3 helmets for your brood. I'll sign a waiver and reserve judgment for more concrete information.


I agree 100%
It's our responsibility to get the straight truth from Cascade and NOCSAE. Then a judgement can be made. I believe NOCSAE as much as I believe Obama based on their past performance. I will wait for the information to come out before I act. Feel free to go spend your $ on an STX helmet and a trip to more clinics and prospect days. As you said that's how you prove you love your son. I will spend time at a basketball game or having a catch with mine. Either way I wish you the best.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 02:39 PM
So I can have my kid wear the old bucket style lid but not a new R?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.


That waiver won't be worth the paper it's printed on if some kid sustains a serious injury. 3D is saying that it realizes that the helmets have been ruled deficient by the organization recognized by the national governing body of the sport but wink, wink, we'll look the other way if you're cool with it. Give me a break. Thumbing their nose at NOCSAE, US Lacrosse and at the well-being of the kids. Has it ever occurred to 3D that there may actually be a legitimate problem that under just the right circumstances could cause significant injury. The timing is curious and fodder for the conspiracy theorists, but I find it hard to believe that an organization such as NOCSAE run in equal parts by academics, medical professionals, research professionals and manufacturing representatives would sell its soul to the devil as a personal favor to STX. NOCSAE's bread and butter is football and lacrosse is a pimple on the [lacrosse] of football. Why would they risk their reputation to assist in the launching of a lacrosse helmet if there wasn't sufficient reason to do so?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 03:17 PM
Let's conclude that NOCSAE is a circus clowns act and get that out of the way, but acknowledge these facts. The NOCSAE standards were paid for via private research grants at universities. The underwriters of these grants and the subsequent testing initiatives were the brands. NOCSAE exists because industry wanted and funded this entity to have standards. This is a Cascade initially sponsored standard that they pushed and defended to maintain, but now they don't meet it because the helmet fit ranges did not test out to meet the NOCSAE certification. If you have not seen concrete information, then you have not read the impact testing studies done by three independent labs which failed the Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator. No brand including Cascade can or has made the argument the testing was not done by the NOCSAE guidelines.

If the lacrosse industry and parents want to rebuke and ignore NOCSAE, sign waivers and look away that is a possible outcome. Already is the 3d outcome. If clubs, NCAA and high school leagues want to rebuke and ignore NOCSAE standards or US Lacrosse rules, that too is a possible outcome. Already is the club play outcome for 3d and most large events which are private and not US Lacrosse sanctioned.

If anyone is waiting for further truths from NOCSAE, don't hold your breath. Their position is Cascade and Warrior are welcome to get back in line and submit product to be certified with design tweaks to the Rs and Regulators or a new design to pass or fail. There aren't further truths to be taken seriously by Cascade until or if they do just that. Make alterations to the helmets and resubmit for certification testing and pass it.
Posted By: TheBackOfTheCage Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.


Ahhh...here the lawyers and the legal threats...IMO, simply do not play in 3D events...let them play with themselves. Nice to see that they are worried about their [lacrosse] and not your child.

I'll bet once their numbers go down they will have a different "document" in place or none at all.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.


Ahhh...here the lawyers and the legal threats...IMO, simply do not play in 3D events...let them play with themselves. Nice to see that they are worried about their [lacrosse] and not your child.

I'll bet once their numbers go down they will have a different "document" in place or none at all.


Yeah, lawyer up. So, what's new? Welcome to America. You would be a fool not to.

I look at this differently; 3d giving the user a choice and promoting personal liability, which is refreshing in the nanny state that we are becoming. They are also not forcing participants to run out and buy a helmet while this is all up in the air. Not a bad deal really.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 04:45 PM
I appreciate the cynicism.

However, what are tournaments, teams, and individuals supposed to do in the immediate future. Its doubtful tournaments and/or indoor rec leagues will be cancelled (loss of too much $$$). Its also doubtful that teams/boys using these helmets will get substitutes in a timely manner. There is going to be a lot of CYA going on until the helments are re-certified and/or replaced.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.


Ahhh...here the lawyers and the legal threats...IMO, simply do not play in 3D events...let them play with themselves. Nice to see that they are worried about their [lacrosse] and not your child.

I'll bet once their numbers go down they will have a different "document" in place or none at all.


Many programs receive their helmets from the clubs. I am waiting for an LI CLub to make an announcement. Because as another post put it in US lacrosse magazine. Practices are played as hard as games (for the committed) and most of us are starting practices.

Something has got to be done.



Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 06:26 PM
I look at this differently; 3d giving the user a choice and promoting personal liability, which is refreshing in the nanny state that we are becoming. They are also not forcing participants to run out and buy a helmet while this is all up in the air. Not a bad deal really. [/quote]

That is a fair point, but you lost me at the end. Nothing is "up in the air". The Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are not certified helmets until or if a modified version of each are tested out and certified. 3d's position is stating we are stepping away from US Lacrosse and NOCSAE rule and making the best lawyers' attempt to disclaim liability. Who knows how that holds up if a kid gets seriously hurt.

As a prior poster noted, 'tis the season for prospect days. Will these be cancelled, will NCAA coaches notice that no player can participate in a non-certified helmet, or will they just shrug and do the events? This is a sport where every challenge seems to be met with non-conformity to follow the rules or guidelines, which is a bad deal really.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 07:07 PM
I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.


From what I've been told at LU, the helmets are safe. It's just the language on "helmet settings" in the pamphlets that come with these helmets that needs to be changed.

In the meantime, we are all left in the lurch.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.


The only practical solution I have heard repeated is for Cascade to go to NOCSAE and propose that Cascade R's be certified fitted. That means you take your Cascade R to a lacrosse store with an authorized trained Cascade assembler to fit your son and then mark the helmet as NOCSAE certified and certified fitted. I don't know if that will work with NOCSAE but based on what we do know that is their only chance unless they go back to the drawing board and design new helmets and recall these ones, which in the real case is 6+ months away. What we also know is that the Cascade R is a conforming certified helmet if it is properly fitted, and with all other manipulated ranges to wear it with the bill tilted forward or backwards fail the certified testing. The downside for Cascade is that putting trained people in the field will eat into a lot of the margins for helmets sold on-line, and in the real case I doubt NOCSAE goes for it because it will be too burdensome to expect events organizers to check every helmet every time for certified fitted tags.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.


From what I've been told at LU, the helmets are safe. It's just the language on "helmet settings" in the pamphlets that come with these helmets that needs to be changed.

In the meantime, we are all left in the lurch.


The guy at our LU had it all wrong. He said the decertification was because of inadequate written safety materials that accompanied the helmet. If you read the primary NOSCAE documents it is clear the R failed impact testing at both the front and at the crown. It is not as simple as adjusting the fit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.


From what I've been told at LU, the helmets are safe. It's just the language on "helmet settings" in the pamphlets that come with these helmets that needs to be changed.

In the meantime, we are all left in the lurch.


Exactly. It's all up in the air, unless of course you want to believe everything you read and think this whole decertification game is grounded in integrity.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 09:35 PM
3d's letter (waiver) should be an indication of how little most of these organizations think of our kids safety. They care about the money your gonna pay them not your kid. Thanks for exposing yourself 3d.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 10:19 PM
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the last several helmet designs produced by Cascade (CSX-R and Pro-7) so similar that they too would fail? If the R was supposed to be the latest improvement over the ones with the seven technology, wouldn't they (the Rs) perform better? They added extra protection, whatever that yellow liner is, this certainly shouldn't make it worse. So should we then conclude, and maybe NOCSAE will too one day, that the last several Cascade helmets would also fail? I don't know who is wrong, but now that the impact data has come to light, shouldn't NOCSAE then doubt the previous SELF-REPORTED data Cascade has provided? I don't think this is over by along-shot. My second choice would be to buy a CSX-R, but I wonder if it'll be next on the "don't-use-this-helmet-until-we get-this-resolved list".
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the last several helmet designs produced by Cascade (CSX-R and Pro-7) so similar that they too would fail? If the R was supposed to be the latest improvement over the ones with the seven technology, wouldn't they (the Rs) perform better? They added extra protection, whatever that yellow liner is, this certainly shouldn't make it worse. So should we then conclude, and maybe NOCSAE will too one day, that the last several Cascade helmets would also fail? I don't know who is wrong, but now that the impact data has come to light, shouldn't NOCSAE then doubt the previous SELF-REPORTED data Cascade has provided? I don't think this is over by along-shot. My second choice would be to buy a CSX-R, but I wonder if it'll be next on the "don't-use-this-helmet-until-we get-this-resolved list".


This is a good point that I also am concerned about. Did STX test all of Cascade's model's or just the "R"? One could run out and buy another model which supposedly complies but it is not clear if that is because all the other models passed the recent tests which the R failed or were not tested in a similar manner.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 11:02 PM
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?


You are right they are grown skilled men who dont lay teamates out during practice so this helmet issue might be resolved before the heavy hitting occurs
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?


I don't know that you need to use tact. It's a simple question and certainly wouldn't been seen as offensive. I'm sure they are well aware, but just don't have a decent plan of action because Cascade it telling everyone to wait and see. I would ask if it were me...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/03/14 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?


Wow, that is telling. I think the most tactful (and anonymous) thing you can do is speak privately to the head trainer at your son's university athletic department. He or she will run with it from there.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 12:48 AM
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

***if your son is one of the grown men he should ask the coach himself.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 01:33 PM
Cascade / Warrior paying for testing on the new STX helmet to get it voided.
Come January 1st no helmets will be certified to play lacrosse !!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

***if your son is one of the grown men he should ask the coach himself.


He's already done that! With the response "we're looking into it".
I guess your stupid condescending comment means it's not appropriate for me to be concerned about my son's safety??? Don't need my son getting an injury that could plague him for the rest of his life for a GAME!!! All because the coach doesn't want to deal with the issue.
What a tough guy you are. Questioning whether he's a grown man or not? I can tell, you are quite the MAN yourself! Making a comment like that hiding behind the safety of your keyboard. A comment you KNOW you would never make to mine, or any other grown man's face.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

***if your son is one of the grown men he should ask the coach himself.


He's already done that! With the response "we're looking into it".
I guess your stupid condescending comment means it's not appropriate for me to be concerned about my son's safety??? Don't need my son getting an injury that could plague him for the rest of his life for a GAME!!! All because the coach doesn't want to deal with the issue.
What a tough guy you are. Questioning whether he's a grown man or not? I can tell, you are quite the MAN yourself! Making a comment like that hiding behind the safety of your keyboard. A comment you KNOW you would never make to mine, or any other grown man's face.


Pardon the bleeping alpha lacrosse dad as per the lacrosse warning list posted yesterday. Your son got the worst response imaginable from his college coaches. The right course is to address this concern with the head trainer. Coaches cannot speak over the trainers when they voice a health safety ruling. I doubt a university athletic department would invite the legal or other risks associated with being this cavalier about safety.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 04:18 PM
I just called the 800 number for Cascade that all of the online information directs me to call. I was told that I could check to see if a local retailer would replace this Cascade R with something that's "certified", problem is she says "most retailers don't have any helmets left to exchange" and my second problem is, this helmet is customized making it nearly impossible to exchange. The real intent of my phone call was to determine if these helmets were decertified because of a safety issue or is it truly a paperwork misunderstanding? I never got the straight answer and the representative suddenly was very quiet when I informed her that my son, on his very first day of wearing this brand new Cascade R $300 helmet suffered a pretty significant concussion.

Does anyone have the real scoop as to why these helmets have been decertified?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 04:20 PM
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Does anyone have the real scoop as to why these helmets have been decertified?


Based on the latest 24 seven lax article on this issue: "NOCSAE contends that it is the role of manufacturers to adhere to standards and consistently produce models meeting those standards. In the case of the Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator, there is little ambiguity when you ask NOCSAE. These helmets fail to meet the standard, period. There is no misunderstanding. This was a failure of the helmets to pass the impact standards required by NOCSAE, and a failure to implement and follow an effective QC production sample testing program which is the only basis for certifying a model population"

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I just called the 800 number for Cascade that all of the online information directs me to call. I was told that I could check to see if a local retailer would replace this Cascade R with something that's "certified", problem is she says "most retailers don't have any helmets left to exchange" and my second problem is, this helmet is customized making it nearly impossible to exchange. The real intent of my phone call was to determine if these helmets were decertified because of a safety issue or is it truly a paperwork misunderstanding? I never got the straight answer and the representative suddenly was very quiet when I informed her that my son, on his very first day of wearing this brand new Cascade R $300 helmet suffered a pretty significant concussion.

Does anyone have the real scoop as to why these helmets have been decertified?


I called our local LU and was told their President and the President of Cascade are in contact daily, and the issue is really problems with the Cascade instruction manual not being updated from the prior Cascade model instructions. The NOCSAE position was that this helmet failed tests, and is not a paperwork item at all. I don't like hearing a backstory from Cascade that does not comport with the NOCSAE findings, because that is all that will matter now.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I look at this differently; 3d giving the user a choice and promoting personal liability, which is refreshing in the nanny state that we are becoming. They are also not forcing participants to run out and buy a helmet while this is all up in the air. Not a bad deal really.


That is a fair point, but you lost me at the end. Nothing is "up in the air". The Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are not certified helmets until or if a modified version of each are tested out and certified. 3d's position is stating we are stepping away from US Lacrosse and NOCSAE rule and making the best lawyers' attempt to disclaim liability. Who knows how that holds up if a kid gets seriously hurt.

As a prior poster noted, 'tis the season for prospect days. Will these be cancelled, will NCAA coaches notice that no player can participate in a non-certified helmet, or will they just shrug and do the events? This is a sport where every challenge seems to be met with non-conformity to follow the rules or guidelines, which is a bad deal really. [/quote]

Statement sent for upcoming Prospect camp:
First and foremost, many of you have contacted us about the recent NOCSAE ruling on the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator helmets. We HIGHLY encourage all Prospect Day participants to wear a NOCSAE-certified helmet if possible. If you plan to wear one of the voided helmets during the Prospect Day, please pay close attention to the following paragraphs.

As with all Cavalier Elite Lacrosse events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events. (This was done through the online registration.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son) choose to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing Cavalier Elite Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law. If you would like to review our waiver, you can find it HERE.
As the voided certifications affect a vast majority of lacrosse players (including us here at the University of Virginia), we have been in close contact with Cascade specifically about what to do right now. Please refer to the message on the homepage of the Cascade website, cascadelacrosse.com. If you cannot read that message, you can find it in its entirety HERE. If you have a Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, you have a few options:

If you also have a Cascade Pro 7 or Cascade CPX-R, you can wear one of those. If you do not own one, you may be able to borrow one from a friend, neighbor, or teammate. Those models are still NOCSAE certified.
If you do not own one of those helmets nor do you have access to one, you are encouraged to go to your local lacrosse retailer to swap out your helmet for a NOCSAE-certified model. You can call the Cascade Customer Support line for help in locating the nearest retailer at 800-537-1702.
If you have a Warrior Regulator helmet, it seems that they have a similar plan in place for providing a NOCASE-certified helmet. You can call their Customer Service line at 1-800-968-7845.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


My son has had the R since it came out and has been hit several times and has had no issues, he is an aggressive defense-man and his team plays extremely physical games.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

***if your son is one of the grown men he should ask the coach himself.


He's already done that! With the response "we're looking into it".
I guess your stupid condescending comment means it's not appropriate for me to be concerned about my son's safety??? Don't need my son getting an injury that could plague him for the rest of his life for a GAME!!! All because the coach doesn't want to deal with the issue.
What a tough guy you are. Questioning whether he's a grown man or not? I can tell, you are quite the MAN yourself! Making a comment like that hiding behind the safety of your keyboard. A comment you KNOW you would never make to mine, or any other grown man's face.



Lighten up Francis. This conversation has been great until your attacks. Don't think the poster meant anything bad by simply saying that maybe since your son is on his own in college that possibly he should ask himself. So relax and try to keep it civil already.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 06:42 PM
Sounds like UVa is stating the same thing 3d did (sign this waiver and come to the free for all) and is relying on the same information LU is, which is what Cascade is stating to anyone who calls. This is really going badly now.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


My son has had the R since it came out and has been hit several times and has had no issues, he is an aggressive defense-man and his team plays extremely physical games.


It is likely your son was properly fitted for the R. The whole point here the R allows for an array of tilted fitting ranges, and those ranges fail impact testing standards.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 07:12 PM
My son also has this helmet and got a concussion. However, in his case no helmet would have stopped it. He was hit in the head by a cheap shot unavoidable cross check. His teammate also was hit by a goalie charging out of the cage with his head down like a raging bull. I think coaches should teach the game of lacrosse and not football. I also think refs should take a serious look at these hits and determine a punishment greater than a 2 minute unreleasable penalty. I would hope cascade and warrior didn't fudge their data and if stx is doing this for marketing, then shame on them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


No helmet can prevent concussions. It's not physiologically possible. The issue with the R has nothing to do with concussion protection.

The human brain is suspended in fluid inside the skull. Concussions happen when the motion of the head is suddenly and violently stopped, allowing the brain to slam into the skull. It's physics and no helmet can protect against that. Perhaps the padding in the helmet can provide some cushion, thereby reducing some of the force of the stop in motion, but it's minimal at best.

The primary function of a helmet is to keep your face and head intact.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 08:18 PM
Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817
email: Mike.Oliver@NOCSAE.ORG
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 08:30 PM
Anyone else wonder why the manufacturer's are allowed to self-certify? What is the purpose of NOCSEA? Something seems not quite right.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son also has this helmet and got a concussion. However, in his case no helmet would have stopped it. He was hit in the head by a cheap shot unavoidable cross check. His teammate also was hit by a goalie charging out of the cage with his head down like a raging bull. I think coaches should teach the game of lacrosse and not football. I also think refs should take a serious look at these hits and determine a punishment greater than a 2 minute unreleasable penalty. I would hope cascade and warrior didn't fudge their data and if stx is doing this for marketing, then shame on them.


Your son would have gotten a concussion no matter what helmet he was wearing unfortunately. Its almost a proven fact that its the hit or receiving the hit that is the cause not the helmet. My son has had a concussion and he was wearing a CPX_R helmet.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817
email: Mike.Oliver@NOCSAE.ORG


He is quoted extensively in both of the 24 Seven Lax posts. If there were no issues one would think Cascade and Warrior would have lawyered up to get some kind of injunction put in place. The fact that they immediately went to the "we're working on a resolution" instead of fighting it leads me to believe maybe there is something there.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 09:45 PM
Check the thread on laxpower about this topic. Interesting information including links to non-profit reporting docs for NOCSEA.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 09:57 PM
I've heard and read in several places that we should go to a retailer and "swap" out the R helmet for a certified one. Doesn't this simply mean, go BUY a new helmet? What retailer is going to give me $275 credit for a used R? Or even the $200 that it will take to buy CPX-R or similar bucket. Why do they keep using "swap"?
Posted By: laxdad2614 Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/04/14 11:49 PM
Thanks for your response. I totally agree. This is what I don't get with the helmets certification No helmet is concussion proof. So basically every helmet will fail. It makes no sense how a certain helmet passes 100% while it's competition fails 100%. Also I think NOCSAE should bear the responsibility on this. Basically they tell manufacturer pay for our sticker and we will approve your tests. With everything in the last year regarding head injuries, they are opening themselves up to some serious credibility issues. I can't believe they wouldn't test independently from manufacturer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 12:18 AM
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 02:42 AM
Cascade posted an update on their Instagram.. Looks like a solution in a couple more days.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 02:43 AM
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817

I shot an email to this guy when it first was announced. I questioned whether the CPX-R was included in the reclassification. He responded within minutes. But I sent a reply back as to the specifics of why they are no longer good and he never replied
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Cascade posted an update on their Instagram.. Looks like a solution in a couple more days.


I'm not sure I trust the whole process. Certification is useless unless it is completely independent.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817

I shot an email to this guy when it first was announced. I questioned whether the CPX-R was included in the reclassification. He responded within minutes. But I sent a reply back as to the specifics of why they are no longer good and he never replied


Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 01:49 PM
I registered with Cascade on their website and yesterday received an email update. They say they are working with NOSCAE on testing a retrofit to existing R helmets that would make them compliant. For what it is worth Cascade says they are "confident a solution will be announced in the coming days."
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


One other thing that will be interesting is that there are plenty of 7,8,9 year olds that are wearing R's that shouldn't be because their heads are too small. I see it all the time, daddy has to buy them the coolest helmet. I would assume that those will not be able to be fitted and they will have to get a new helmet until their head grows a bit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


One other thing that will be interesting is that there are plenty of 7,8,9 year olds that are wearing R's that shouldn't be because their heads are too small. I see it all the time, daddy has to buy them the coolest helmet. I would assume that those will not be able to be fitted and they will have to get a new helmet until their head grows a bit.


No problem here.....my kid is Irish.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 04:33 PM
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT THIS HELMET WAS NOT CERTIFIED. Doesn't matter if your son would have gotten a concussion with another helmet. He was using an R, which was not certified.

This is a manufacturer's defect - whether it was the wrong brochure, a sticker or a design problem. It doesn't matter. This is called product liability or strict liability. Cascade is making a big mistake by telling everyone it's just a paperwork problem.

That's why there are so many medical device class action suits. If something is defective, and you suffer an injury while using it, you are entitled to damages. Haven't you seen the ads on day time TV?

Getting a concussion and missing school does not prove damages. But if you had to take time off from work to get your son to the doctor and medical treatment and therapy, then you will be able to show your losses. If Cascade has acted badly in all of this (like falsifying test results or purposely trying to skimp by using an existing brochure), then they could be liable for a whole lot more.



Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


No helmet can prevent concussions. It's not physiologically possible. The issue with the R has nothing to do with concussion protection.

The human brain is suspended in fluid inside the skull. Concussions happen when the motion of the head is suddenly and violently stopped, allowing the brain to slam into the skull. It's physics and no helmet can protect against that. Perhaps the padding in the helmet can provide some cushion, thereby reducing some of the force of the stop in motion, but it's minimal at best.

The primary function of a helmet is to keep your face and head intact.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 05:12 PM
Just received this from Loyola... I think the issue is being addressed on whether or not these helmets will be used this coming season.

--

In the past week we have learned that the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator helmet do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standards.

Since learning this news, our men’s lacrosse staff has been trying to get clarity on how these new rules apply to high school sports. Yesterday we were informed from our lacrosse officials union that no lacrosse official will officiate a lacrosse game, at any level (youth, high school, college, pro) where players are using either the Cascade Model R or Warrior Regulator helmet.

NOCSAE’s decision to disallow the use of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator is definitely an inconvenience on all fronts, and we apologize greatly for getting this message out so last minute, however, we were only informed of the affect on high school players yesterday. Please know that we are working hard to potentially have helmets for purchase here tomorrow, but we cannot guarantee that option, at this point. Your best plan of action is to borrow or purchase another model helmet (Warrior T-2, Cascade CPX just to name a few) prior to attending prospect camp tomorrow.

Because this is not a US Lacrosse sanctioned event tomorrow, the officials may not even make it an issue. However, we would like to be proactive and make sure that nothing alters the great day we have planned for the kids. Thanks very much for your help and understanding in this manner.
Respectfully,

Loyola Lacrosse Staff
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Just received this from Loyola... I think the issue is being addressed on whether or not these helmets will be used this coming season.

--

In the past week we have learned that the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator helmet do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standards.

Since learning this news, our men’s lacrosse staff has been trying to get clarity on how these new rules apply to high school sports. Yesterday we were informed from our lacrosse officials union that no lacrosse official will officiate a lacrosse game, at any level (youth, high school, college, pro) where players are using either the Cascade Model R or Warrior Regulator helmet.

NOCSAE’s decision to disallow the use of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator is definitely an inconvenience on all fronts, and we apologize greatly for getting this message out so last minute, however, we were only informed of the affect on high school players yesterday. Please know that we are working hard to potentially have helmets for purchase here tomorrow, but we cannot guarantee that option, at this point. Your best plan of action is to borrow or purchase another model helmet (Warrior T-2, Cascade CPX just to name a few) prior to attending prospect camp tomorrow.

Because this is not a US Lacrosse sanctioned event tomorrow, the officials may not even make it an issue. However, we would like to be proactive and make sure that nothing alters the great day we have planned for the kids. Thanks very much for your help and understanding in this manner.
Respectfully,

Loyola Lacrosse Staff


Bravo Loyola. That is a straight shooting, honest and candid response given the current conditions.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 05:56 PM
For the life of me I don't understand why given these circumstances Cascade doesn't just eat it all the way down to their cost at no profit to give anyone who is a Cascade R owner a voucher to pay like $80 for a CPX? Sure they'd sell a lot of CPXs at no profit and a lot of their customers would now have two helmets, but offering customers a less expensive short term solution is the very least they could do. Hold on tight bids for time are really bothersome to this family owner of three Rs. If I am paying retail for a helmet now, might as well make it an STX and that is a sad thing to come to as past Cascade fan and client.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


I understand what pharma does, however the reporting, standards and protocol is very detailed in pharma and fines steep. Trials are conducted over the course of about 8-15 years for new therapies. The FDA scrutinizes data and sometimes requires additional testing. NOSCEA basically sells a seal to manufacturers who claim compliance. Obviously they are NOT conducting much "random testing" or they certainly would have tested these helmets since they came out, the R is obviously one of the most commonly worn helmets or this would be a non-issue. NOSCEA didn't bother to test when the helmets were found faulty by Purdue study. The ONLY reason any consumer now knows that the helmets are not compliant is because of STX. While I am a proponent of free market corrections, this is unacceptable as NOSCEA has offered a seal, which to the average consumer, seems to confer that the organization issuing the seal stands behind the safety of the product. NOCSEA should not issue seals if they have no idea if a product is compliant.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 05:59 PM
Purdue and Lynchburg College have been doing a lot of recent research:

Force Attenuation Of New And Used Lacrosse Helmets
All of the helmets (Cascade Pro7, Cascade CPXR) passed the NOCSAE standard suggesting they can still adequately attenuate blows to the head, even after 3 years of use without reconditioning.

-GOOD NEWS for old Cascade helmets.

Force Attenuation Of Football And Lacrosse Helmets
Force attenuation capability, measured by GSI, varied across helmet models according to drop location after accounting for differences in sport. Overall, football helmets performed better than lacrosse helmets, and we found a wide variety of GSI scores among the different brands within each sport. Although lacrosse helmets are manufactured for a different athletic context, it may be possible for aspects of football helmet technology to be adapted to lacrosse helmets in the future in order to improve force attenuation performance.

- Not so good, but does Lacrosse need Football level protection?

Characteristics Of Football Helmets Associated With The Incidence Of Sport Related Concussion In High School Football Players
A total of 204 players (8.9%) sustained 208 SRC causing them to miss a median of14 (10.1,20.2) days. There was no difference (p = 0.773) in the incidence of SRC [SRC/ helmets, (%: 95% CI)] for players wearing Riddell [108/1172 (9.2%: 7.7,11.1)], Schutt [56/678 (8.3%: 6.4,10.7)], Xenith [40/438 (9.1%: 6.7,12.3)] helmets. There was no difference (p = 0.365) in the incidence of SRC for helmets that were used for their first and second seasons, [47/463, 10.2%: 7.6,13.4)], third and fourth seasons, (72/904, 8.0%: 6.3,10.0) or five or more seasons (83/895, 9.3%: 7.5,11.0). There was no difference (p = 0.249), in the severity of SRC for players wearing Riddell [13.0: 9.0,19.0], Schutt [14.0: 10.5,23.0] and Xenith [14.5: 11.8,19.0] helmets. There was no difference (p = 0.239) in the severity of SRC for helmets that were used in their first and second seasons [16.0: 11.0,19.5], third and fourth seasons [12.0: 8.0,21.0] or five or more seasons [13.5: 10.0,19.0].
Conclusions: Despite manufacturer’s claims, there was no difference in the incidence or severity of SRC based on the helmet brand or helmet age. ATs need to be aware that factors other than the type of football helmet may affect the risk of high school players sustaining a SRC.

- So all helmets (new, old, different brand) basically act the same in reducing concussions.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 07:26 PM
As of Wednesday night, you could turn in your R's at any Lacrosse Unlimited and receive a $250 gift card. That may or maynot still be in place as everyday more positive news is coming out in Cascade's favor.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
As of Wednesday night, you could turn in your R's at any Lacrosse Unlimited and receive a $250 gift card. That may or maynot still be in place as everyday more positive news is coming out in Cascade's favor.


Not at our lacrosse unlimited local store. They told us to hold tight and this would be settled up soon. We never received any indication of a voucher or a gift card when we asked about refunds or exchanges. I don't believe that.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 07:43 PM
I called Cascade yesterday and they told me to call Lacrosse Unlimited for an exchange since my son is doing box. They even told me which one to call - local store. the manager of Lacrosse Unlimited said they were instructed by the President of Cascade not to do any exchanges. They were in the process of working something out.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For the life of me I don't understand why given these circumstances Cascade doesn't just eat it all the way down to their cost at no profit to give anyone who is a Cascade R owner a voucher to pay like $80 for a CPX? Sure they'd sell a lot of CPXs at no profit and a lot of their customers would now have two helmets, but offering customers a less expensive short term solution is the very least they could do. Hold on tight bids for time are really bothersome to this family owner of three Rs. If I am paying retail for a helmet now, might as well make it an STX and that is a sad thing to come to as past Cascade fan and client.


http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

"Until such time as Cascade and Warrior undergo and pass a NOCSAE independent quality audit directed by the Safety Equipment Institute or SEI, they are effectively shut down when it comes to helmets. Steve Jones, the Senior Director of Corporate Communications at Performance Sports Group spoke on behalf of Cascade and confirmed that they are not currently shipping any helmets. Replacements for the model R helmet from Cascade will have to come from what is currently available in the retail market."

With 48 hour custom shipping direct from Cascade, there isn't a lot of inventory in the retail market.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 08:05 PM
Interesting that this topic is now in the NY times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/06/s...on=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/05/14 09:26 PM

"Until such time as Cascade and Warrior undergo and pass a NOCSAE independent quality audit directed by the Safety Equipment Institute or SEI, they are effectively shut down when it comes to helmets. Steve Jones, the Senior Director of Corporate Communications at Performance Sports Group spoke on behalf of Cascade and confirmed that they are not currently shipping any helmets. Replacements for the model R helmet from Cascade will have to come from what is currently available in the retail market."

Are we to take this as a suggestion that teh CPX is the next one on the NOCSAE chop block? I'd have guessed they'd be storming the market with the older helmets if they are certified.

With 48 hour custom shipping direct from Cascade, there isn't a lot of inventory in the retail market. [/quote]
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 02:13 AM
Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...


I'd have waiting a little longer, but I think we'd end up in the same place. I'm hoping not, though. I'm sure the CPX is next on the de-cert list and Cascade's integrity is shot IMO. If helmets weren't so expensive, I'd jump to another company in a heartbeat. But alas, I have to wait in the hopes I won't have to drop $200+ on another bucket.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 01:15 PM
This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 01:16 PM
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Gee, you don't think I asked for that at LU ?!? No refunds, no vouchers and certainly no price other than what it costs to buy another helmet and more of the same...hold tight, this is a paperwork problem only, and any day now it will be resolved. Rinse and repeat. If Cascade were an automaker they'd be out of business.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096


Now given this, how in good conscience could Cascade be feeding the retail channel with some story about how this is all linked to the paperwork or the instruction manual which was not updated from the CPX to the R? Did that NOCSAE guy speaking sound like this was no big deal and is going to be straightened out soon? No. In a word he said at some fitted ranges taking impact wearing this helmet will result in fractured skull which would be prevented if the helmet was conforming to the certification standards.

It's over. Bye bye Cascade.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 02:52 PM
Very grey area. There's not much helmet to helmet contact (thank god ). When there is , no question all lacrosse helmets lack any concussion protection. If they use helmets similar to football , I believe that would increase the number of head to head collisions. Some will use it as a weapon. What do you do ?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!


They don't have a choice. In the very least, you were sold a product that was not as it was represented, if not worse. Demand an immediate exchange. Any retailer that doesn't oblige you is irresponsible at best.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Gee, you don't think I asked for that at LU ?!? No refunds, no vouchers and certainly no price other than what it costs to buy another helmet and more of the same...hold tight, this is a paperwork problem only, and any day now it will be resolved. Rinse and repeat. If Cascade were an automaker they'd be out of business.


Walk into LU, call the cascade toll free number on their website, ask them if they are still honoring the $250 credit, when they tell you yes, put the manager of the store on the phone with them. you'll get you credit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!


yes. $250 gift card that i will use to buy a new helmet once everything has settled down.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 04:26 PM

They don't have a choice. In the very least, you were sold a product that was not as it was represented, if not worse. Demand an immediate exchange. Any retailer that doesn't oblige you is irresponsible at best. [/quote]

Well, go give that a shot at your local LU or other dealer. They will not give you a refund or an exchange and will further instruct you to hold tight and all of this will be over soon because its a paperwork issue, which is what Cascade is telling them to tell you. I wasn't able to get any exchange or rebate whatsoever, and I can understand that LU and others are not too psyched to take a financial bath for Cascade, because it is not their fault. I am not cross with LU, but steamed and done forever with Cascade. They are failing the customers and hiding behind a story we all know is false. The only thing NOCSAE is likely to do soon is ban the other Cascade models as well.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 04:29 PM
As a manager in retail my number one priority is to satisfy the customer without any resistance when something goes wrong. My son has the R helmet, I have made several calls to the retailers of both of these helmets and it's the same everywhere. NO HELMETS in stock and as I was told yesterday by one of the well known retailers of lacrosse equipment they don't even recommend anything that is comparable to the CPXR or R. So CASCADE what are we as the customer supposed to do? What is my son going to wear next friday when he has a game of which I already paid the fee to play in? I am not asking for refunds or compensation all I am asking is for a solution of which I have yet to hear about or see. Cascade you are not a small company and I am sure you have a very well paid staff of upper management personnel why haven't you as a company yet done something about satisfying the customer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!


yes. $250 gift card that i will use to buy a new helmet once everything has settled down.


No luck from me either. If you've done (the guy in the box above, post a pic of the card and/or receipt and I'll believe it. Until then, we're SOL, I'm afraid.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096


Now given this, how in good conscience could Cascade be feeding the retail channel with some story about how this is all linked to the paperwork or the instruction manual which was not updated from the CPX to the R? Did that NOCSAE guy speaking sound like this was no big deal and is going to be straightened out soon? No. In a word he said at some fitted ranges taking impact wearing this helmet will result in fractured skull which would be prevented if the helmet was conforming to the certification standards.

It's over. Bye bye Cascade.


Nothing different in this tv news report than what we've already been told. Still, what is lacking is a real world understanding of what the testing and the numbers mean. So many people are in a panic about this issue without truly understanding what the difference is between certified and non-certified helmets. How much force is 2700 SI, as mentioned? I have no clue. Lacrosse is not football, hence the lighter helmet. Heck, the women don't even wear a helmet and their play can be very physical.

The R has been out for a while now and it's used primarily by bigger and stronger players. Does anyone know a kid who has had his head cracked open while wearing the R? I would be much more concerned if the decertification was the result of numerous complaints about injuries sustained while playing with the helmets in question. Instead, it was brought about by a competitor who happens to have an exec on the NOCSAE board.

I've got no connection to Cascade or Warrior and am concerned about the safety of my son, just like everyone else. The whole situation just smells fishy to me and I think it's just prudent to wait and see right now, if you can.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/06/14 11:59 PM
Did Brine cancel their day tomorrow due to the helmet issue? We all know they played in bad weather last year?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 12:44 AM
Bacharach and Rasin....where are you?! LOL
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 01:32 AM
Mitchel has grass too. Fields are a mess. Are you blind ?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Bacharach and Rasin....where are you?! LOL


There's no "and" in Bacharach Rasin.
And "where are they"? They are gone! Out of business because even though we remember their helmet with the shoe lace tie in the back with warm fuzzy thoughts...that's because we all sustained many head shots...we can't help but also remember how crappy their helmet was. I still have mine and when my son looks at it he just laughs. Really though for those who are buying into this nonsense about the Cascade R being unsafe I ask you to find someone with the only helmet offered to us in the 70s and 80s, the Bacharach Rasin and see if you still feel today's Cascade R is unsafe. It's all bull shite.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Did Brine cancel their day tomorrow due to the helmet issue? We all know they played in bad weather last year?


Great question. It is rediculus that the tryout was cancelled last minute. They knew damn well the weather was going to be fine today.gotta wonder what is going on!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Bacharach and Rasin....where are you?! LOL


There's no "and" in Bacharach Rasin.
And "where are they"? They are gone! Out of business because even though we remember their helmet with the shoe lace tie in the back with warm fuzzy thoughts...that's because we all sustained many head shots...we can't help but also remember how crappy their helmet was. I still have mine and when my son looks at it he just laughs. Really though for those who are buying into this nonsense about the Cascade R being unsafe I ask you to find someone with the only helmet offered to us in the 70s and 80s, the Bacharach Rasin and see if you still feel today's Cascade R is unsafe. It's all bull shite.


I agree the R is probably not as unsafe as its been made to be, particularly when compared to helmets of yesteryear. But ask yourself, shouldn't the technology continue to get better for safety sake? Would you feel comfortable putting your son in your old helmet? Bull shite or not, the end result of this should be a safer R and a safer sport. Cascade will make it right, eventually, and I'm sure NOCSAE will alter its current procedures (i.e., not excepting self-reported compliance, commissioning or performing its own tests, etc.). If you think about it, this is a good thing...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/07/14 05:38 PM
There's only one turf fuel at Mitchell. The opposite fields are usually in poor shape with no rain. With 150+ kids coming out from areas further than Long Island don't you think it would be wise to be safe and cancel ? I forgot you lax dads are also weathermen and groundskeepers too .
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 12:30 AM
Here's an interesting question. If the R has suddenly been decertified and deemed unsafe, what is the rate of injuries and in-field failures over the past year and a half it's been in use? What's the same rate for certified helmets? Guaranteed there's no difference. Proof the seal is worthless.
The NOCSAE seal and nonsense that goes with it is NOT a good thing. It's BS. As proven by this mess.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's an interesting question. If the R has suddenly been decertified and deemed unsafe, what is the rate of injuries and in-field failures over the past year and a half it's been in use? What's the same rate for certified helmets? Guaranteed there's no difference. Proof the seal is worthless.
The NOCSAE seal and nonsense that goes with it is NOT a good thing. It's BS. As proven by this mess.


At a tournament in Wellington FL this weekend players were told they could not play with the Cascade R helmet. They all used old helmets. One kid got hit in the head with a shot and the helmet shattered. Not sure of the make or model. Kid was air lifted to local hospital. Law suits coming. NOCSAE included.
And while we all wait for clarity on this serious matter, what exactly is NOCSAE, Cascade & Warrior doing for the public?

Either recall the product, or re-certify and make some statement that explains things clearly. This is total BS!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
There's only one turf fuel at Mitchell. The opposite fields are usually in poor shape with no rain. With 150+ kids coming out from areas further than Long Island don't you think it would be wise to be safe and cancel ? I forgot you lax dads are also weathermen and groundskeepers too .


I resent that as it sounds like you are talking to me!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's an interesting question. If the R has suddenly been decertified and deemed unsafe, what is the rate of injuries and in-field failures over the past year and a half it's been in use? What's the same rate for certified helmets? Guaranteed there's no difference. Proof the seal is worthless.
The NOCSAE seal and nonsense that goes with it is NOT a good thing. It's BS. As proven by this mess.


At a tournament in Wellington FL this weekend players were told they could not play with the Cascade R helmet. They all used old helmets. One kid got hit in the head with a shot and the helmet shattered. Not sure of the make or model. Kid was air lifted to local hospital. Law suits coming. NOCSAE included.
And while we all wait for clarity on this serious matter, what exactly is NOCSAE, Cascade & Warrior doing for the public?

Either recall the product, or re-certify and make some statement that explains things clearly. This is total BS!


That is horrific, and as I have written over and over it seems this sport is only comfortable with its head in the sand. The 2013 Purdue research study is not something lacrosse dads need to be diligent to find on PubMed, but 24sevenlax.com finds it a week or two ago after this mess is public. My worst fear is a kid would have to be seriously injured or worse for ANY PROPER ATTENTION AND URGENCY to arrive, and sadly...

I pray for this kid and his family that he will be ok. Horrible news and every parents' worst nightmare.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Bacharach and Rasin....where are you?! LOL


There's no "and" in Bacharach Rasin.
And "where are they"? They are gone! Out of business because even though we remember their helmet with the shoe lace tie in the back with warm fuzzy thoughts...that's because we all sustained many head shots...we can't help but also remember how crappy their helmet was. I still have mine and when my son looks at it he just laughs. Really though for those who are buying into this nonsense about the Cascade R being unsafe I ask you to find someone with the only helmet offered to us in the 70s and 80s, the Bacharach Rasin and see if you still feel today's Cascade R is unsafe. It's all bull shite.


In that era there were also hockey players who did not wear any helmets. You seem determined to point out that Cascade Rs are safe, but they don't meet the same safety standards impact tests Cascade itself proposed to NOCSAE for implementation years ago. This standard is the same one Cascade funded through research and outlined to propose as a NOCSAE standard to NOCSAE years ago. The Rs fail standards. Hard stop, period.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 02:03 PM
Any events cancelled last weekend?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 05:35 PM
For 3d (and anyone else doing something similar to this) to issue this statement and allow people to sign a waiver is reckless and negligent on their part. No matter your opinion on how safe the R really is, and how this NOCSAE issue is just an administrative problem that will be quickly fixed, 3d is setting itself up for a lawsuit by allowing people to play with defective, decertified equipment.


Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 06:16 PM
Is STX the only helmet in the market with certification outside of the older Cascades which are still eligible?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For 3d (and anyone else doing something similar to this) to issue this statement and allow people to sign a waiver is reckless and negligent on their part. No matter your opinion on how safe the R really is, and how this NOCSAE issue is just an administrative problem that will be quickly fixed, 3d is setting itself up for a lawsuit by allowing people to play with defective, decertified equipment.


Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.


Truth is nobody asks for helmet certification when you go to youth tournaments. Middle/High school "yes" you have to have a conforming helemt. However, I have seen boys with older brothers play PAL and other youth tournaments using hand me down helmets that are 10 years old and nobody stops them. If people want to really get serious about head injuries a good start would be insisiting that ALL helmets are certified as compliant, not just the Cascase and Warrior models currently in trouble.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...


Did you buy the STX Stallion? Looks really great from a safety perspective. Knock will be that it is too heavy I suppose.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's an interesting question. If the R has suddenly been decertified and deemed unsafe, what is the rate of injuries and in-field failures over the past year and a half it's been in use? What's the same rate for certified helmets? Guaranteed there's no difference. Proof the seal is worthless.
The NOCSAE seal and nonsense that goes with it is NOT a good thing. It's BS. As proven by this mess.


At a tournament in Wellington FL this weekend players were told they could not play with the Cascade R helmet. They all used old helmets. One kid got hit in the head with a shot and the helmet shattered. Not sure of the make or model. Kid was air lifted to local hospital. Law suits coming. NOCSAE included.
And while we all wait for clarity on this serious matter, what exactly is NOCSAE, Cascade & Warrior doing for the public?

Either recall the product, or re-certify and make some statement that explains things clearly. This is total BS!


That is horrific, and as I have written over and over it seems this sport is only comfortable with its head in the sand. The 2013 Purdue research study is not something lacrosse dads need to be diligent to find on PubMed, but 24sevenlax.com finds it a week or two ago after this mess is public. My worst fear is a kid would have to be seriously injured or worse for ANY PROPER ATTENTION AND URGENCY to arrive, and sadly...

I pray for this kid and his family that he will be ok. Horrible news and every parents' worst nightmare.


Oh my God. So this one instance means what? All helmets are unsafe? Your completely overreacting because there is a point of view different than yours. I saw a horrible tragedy in football causing a death from helmet failure. Guess what. The exact same helmets are still being used now!! Where's your prayers and outrage? Us Dads do plenty of research and care for our kids as much as you do yours and your comments otherwise are offensive. Most of us however don't believe everything we read because our govt has conditioned us to be skeptical and we see every day all the lies we are told for others gain. NOCSAE certified the helmets for a year and a half and your anger should be pointed at them not the ones questioning this issue.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Here's an interesting question. If the R has suddenly been decertified and deemed unsafe, what is the rate of injuries and in-field failures over the past year and a half it's been in use? What's the same rate for certified helmets? Guaranteed there's no difference. Proof the seal is worthless.
The NOCSAE seal and nonsense that goes with it is NOT a good thing. It's BS. As proven by this mess.


At a tournament in Wellington FL this weekend players were told they could not play with the Cascade R helmet. They all used old helmets. One kid got hit in the head with a shot and the helmet shattered. Not sure of the make or model. Kid was air lifted to local hospital. Law suits coming. NOCSAE included.
And while we all wait for clarity on this serious matter, what exactly is NOCSAE, Cascade & Warrior doing for the public?

Either recall the product, or re-certify and make some statement that explains things clearly. This is total BS!


That is horrific, and as I have written over and over it seems this sport is only comfortable with its head in the sand. The 2013 Purdue research study is not something lacrosse dads need to be diligent to find on PubMed, but 24sevenlax.com finds it a week or two ago after this mess is public. My worst fear is a kid would have to be seriously injured or worse for ANY PROPER ATTENTION AND URGENCY to arrive, and sadly...

I pray for this kid and his family that he will be ok. Horrible news and every parents' worst nightmare.


Oh my God. So this one instance means what? All helmets are unsafe? Your completely overreacting because there is a point of view different than yours. I saw a horrible tragedy in football causing a death from helmet failure. Guess what. The exact same helmets are still being used now!! Where's your prayers and outrage? Us Dads do plenty of research and care for our kids as much as you do yours and your comments otherwise are offensive. Most of us however don't believe everything we read because our govt has conditioned us to be skeptical and we see every day all the lies we are told for others gain. NOCSAE certified the helmets for a year and a half and your anger should be pointed at them not the ones questioning this issue.


Okay so the helmets only have a certification of less than 2 years. Whoever checks a helmets re-certs. I know the football pee wee leagues do. Never seen it in lax. But seriously why would you put an older helmet on. (unless it is was only a year or so old, we all know those kids that have a few helmets)

Not to far off from HS ball starting tick tock your on the clock.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 09:47 PM
In all my years of playing sports (I am 47) I played hockey as a goalie with those cheesy plastic masks, football helmets had padding lighter then a blanket, lax Bacharach helmet baseball too. Most serious head injury I had came at the hands of some bulletproof snow while at hunter mtn. I just don't see how these two helmets could not be safer then what I wore. wth are people freakin about? Someone pointed it out a few pages back these head injuries are not going to be stopped because a helmet it's the hits that snap your head and jar your brain. Call me grandpa or whatever you fags want to call me but I say let them play. And maybe I'd the refs did the job of policing the game properly head injuries wouldn't be so great. But then again somehow when I played we didn't have so many injuries and personally we played dirtier then the game is played today.

Here's food for thought: how the [lacrosse] are the cheap chest protectors able to pass the noscae test or they don't bother testing that?

I agree w the poster above this is one instance and don't you think that kid would of been better off w an R on his head?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 09:47 PM
STX stallion is noticably heavier than the R.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 10:00 PM
Let's be clear here. Cascade was acquired by Bauer. This is not the company that Lacrosse has known & loved for the past 28 years. This is a publicly traded corporation who's only concerns are to their shareholders.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/08/14 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In all my years of playing sports (I am 47) I played hockey as a goalie with those cheesy plastic masks, football helmets had padding lighter then a blanket, lax Bacharach helmet baseball too. Most serious head injury I had came at the hands of some bulletproof snow while at hunter mtn. I just don't see how these two helmets could not be safer then what I wore. wth are people freakin about? Someone pointed it out a few pages back these head injuries are not going to be stopped because a helmet it's the hits that snap your head and jar your brain. Call me grandpa or whatever you fags want to call me but I say let them play. And maybe I'd the refs did the job of policing the game properly head injuries wouldn't be so great. But then again somehow when I played we didn't have so many injuries and personally we played dirtier then the game is played today.

Here's food for thought: how the [lacrosse] are the cheap chest protectors able to pass the noscae test or they don't bother testing that?

I agree w the poster above this is one instance and don't you think that kid would of been better off w an R on his head?


Well said my friend. Well said.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX stallion is noticably heavier than the R.


Can someone with access to helmets please grab a scale and let us know the real weights?

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In all my years of playing sports (I am 47) I played hockey as a goalie with those cheesy plastic masks, football helmets had padding lighter then a blanket, lax Bacharach helmet baseball too. Most serious head injury I had came at the hands of some bulletproof snow while at hunter mtn. I just don't see how these two helmets could not be safer then what I wore. wth are people freakin about? Someone pointed it out a few pages back these head injuries are not going to be stopped because a helmet it's the hits that snap your head and jar your brain. Call me grandpa or whatever you fags want to call me but I say let them play. And maybe I'd the refs did the job of policing the game properly head injuries wouldn't be so great. But then again somehow when I played we didn't have so many injuries and personally we played dirtier then the game is played today.

Here's food for thought: how the [lacrosse] are the cheap chest protectors able to pass the noscae test or they don't bother testing that?

I agree w the poster above this is one instance and don't you think that kid would of been better off w an R on his head?


The kid would have been MUCH better off with an R on his head. And that's exactly my point. NOCSAE has screwed this up, and if any law suits are forthcoming, NOCSAE should be held accountable!
Posted By: laxdad2614 Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 01:54 AM
I agree with your point 100%. Well said my friend.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 02:13 AM
Here's food for thought. Please if you have either one of the helmets in question I would just wait a little longer. I've been through this with motorcycle helmets.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 01:43 PM
Finally!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 02:35 PM
The biggest problem here is that Cascade was marketing and selling this very expensive helmet as NOCSAE certified and it is not. This is the defect and the legal liability problem.
People who bought this helmet thought they were getting something that they were not. Coaches told parents to upgrade their youth helmets to the R because it was the best protection on the market. Everyone thought it was a better design and the latest technology in safety. Doesn't matter what the reality is about head injuries or old helmets or how safe it really is.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 02:53 PM
how about the concussions that occurred while wearing one of these helmets?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 03:14 PM
What irks me about the situation is that Cascade sold a bill of goods tha it could not deliver on. After STX published its results, NOCSAE did its own testing and found the helmets did not pass the certification standards. Cascade couldn't provide NOCSAE with the required test data (I don't know if they didn't run all the tests or whether they lost the results) so NOCSAE pulled their cert. That worked as it should and I have no problem with that.

Now, however, Cascade is shipping NOTHING. Not the CPR-X, not the Pro7. Nothing. Its going to be several weeks before they resume shipping, if they do. To me (and I believe to NOCSAE) this raises a big red flag that other helmets in the Cascade product line don't pass muster either. Maybe we'll know something by the end of the year. Or maybe not. I predict that there is going to be a big scramble for certified helmets pretty soon. I hope Cascade gets their certification straightened out because the mess that will result if they don't could be awfully problematic.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Finally!!


Finally what?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 04:27 PM
Is there a tangible finish line or a known date when Cascade will next communicate? A few days in the following days are descriptions, and those descriptions are now over a week old.

Motorcycle helmets are not NOCSAE but are under other federal regulatory, so those two processes are not alike enough to count on being the same.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What irks me about the situation is that Cascade sold a bill of goods tha it could not deliver on. After STX published its results, NOCSAE did its own testing and found the helmets did not pass the certification standards. Cascade couldn't provide NOCSAE with the required test data (I don't know if they didn't run all the tests or whether they lost the results) so NOCSAE pulled their cert. That worked as it should and I have no problem with that.

Now, however, Cascade is shipping NOTHING. Not the CPR-X, not the Pro7. Nothing. Its going to be several weeks before they resume shipping, if they do. To me (and I believe to NOCSAE) this raises a big red flag that other helmets in the Cascade product line don't pass muster either. Maybe we'll know something by the end of the year. Or maybe not. I predict that there is going to be a big scramble for certified helmets pretty soon. I hope Cascade gets their certification straightened out because the mess that will result if they don't could be awfully problematic.


I tend to agree with you...They would be selling CPX-Rs like hotcakes because some people just need a conforming helmet and will buy it and then try to get a refund later on their R. The paramount issue is safety but now you have the secondary issue of impacting a kid's ability to participate in certain events. Sure you may say the R is safer than what you wore 20 years ago and therefore it is ok for your kid to continue to wear it. However, it is not just up to you as a parent, because we are now hearing about tournaments and showcases refusing to allow kids to play if they use one of these helmets. Do you want to spend $$$ flying to some showcase only to find out your kid can't play with an R? And spring lax will be here before you know it with all the schools afraid of liability and refusing participation to all those nonconforming helmet users. If you cannot now purchase a CPX-R either then what happens? ANSWER: STX's evil plan plays out and people flock to the Stallion if it turns out to be the only top quality helmet that is both conforming AND available for purchase. On some level such an outcome would make me ill....but it could happen.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What irks me about the situation is that Cascade sold a bill of goods tha it could not deliver on. After STX published its results, NOCSAE did its own testing and found the helmets did not pass the certification standards. Cascade couldn't provide NOCSAE with the required test data (I don't know if they didn't run all the tests or whether they lost the results) so NOCSAE pulled their cert. That worked as it should and I have no problem with that.

Now, however, Cascade is shipping NOTHING. Not the CPR-X, not the Pro7. Nothing. Its going to be several weeks before they resume shipping, if they do. To me (and I believe to NOCSAE) this raises a big red flag that other helmets in the Cascade product line don't pass muster either. Maybe we'll know something by the end of the year. Or maybe not. I predict that there is going to be a big scramble for certified helmets pretty soon. I hope Cascade gets their certification straightened out because the mess that will result if they don't could be awfully problematic.


When I corresponded w mike Oliver from noscae asking about the CPX-r he said the investigation into their other helmets is ongoing and further secrets may come. If that ever happens with other helmets it is going to be a cluster f
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Let's be clear here. Cascade was acquired by Bauer. This is not the company that Lacrosse has known & loved for the past 28 years. This is a publicly traded corporation who's only concerns are to their shareholders.


Not accurate, Cascade is owned by Performance Sports Group. This company also owns other brands including Bauer and Maverik.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What irks me about the situation is that Cascade sold a bill of goods tha it could not deliver on. After STX published its results, NOCSAE did its own testing and found the helmets did not pass the certification standards. Cascade couldn't provide NOCSAE with the required test data (I don't know if they didn't run all the tests or whether they lost the results) so NOCSAE pulled their cert. That worked as it should and I have no problem with that.

Now, however, Cascade is shipping NOTHING. Not the CPR-X, not the Pro7. Nothing. Its going to be several weeks before they resume shipping, if they do. To me (and I believe to NOCSAE) this raises a big red flag that other helmets in the Cascade product line don't pass muster either. Maybe we'll know something by the end of the year. Or maybe not. I predict that there is going to be a big scramble for certified helmets pretty soon. I hope Cascade gets their certification straightened out because the mess that will result if they don't could be awfully problematic.


I seems to me that at the very least equipment manufacturers should have to provide data to NOCSEA up front, prior to certification.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 05:50 PM
I don't agree that STX is the bad guy. I can see where the "dirty rush" advertising doesn't sit well, but its Cascade that certified a product that didn't make the NOCSAE grade. Sure, STX stands to benefit and sure STX called attention to the problem, but still, they didn't create the problem. The R didn't pass NOCSAE's own testing and from what I read, Cascade couldn't produce the paperwork from its own testing to show where it did. I believe the NOCSAE standard that the R failed had been in place since 2004. I don't see where STX is guilty of anything but perhaps bad taste.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 07:53 PM
It's about time! Tournaments and showcases can now proceed. Whew that was unpleasant huh?!?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
It's about time! Tournaments and showcases can now proceed. Whew that was unpleasant huh?!?


With the Stallion!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/09/14 08:33 PM
What does that mean?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 03:14 PM
http://www.sginews.com/EMS_Base/EMS...ce-sports-group-over-cascade-helmet.aspx


Check out the link above.... NOCSAE is suing Cascade/PSG/bauer
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
It's about time! Tournaments and showcases can now proceed. Whew that was unpleasant huh?!?


It's about time for what? Has this been resolved?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:20 PM
Bye bye Cascade.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://www.sginews.com/EMS_Base/EMS...ce-sports-group-over-cascade-helmet.aspx


Check out the link above.... NOCSAE is suing Cascade/PSG/bauer


That suit was filed on 12/4 and actually withdrawn on 12/5
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:35 PM
Cascade was sued on December 4th, which was the same day last week which NOCSAE filed a federal court lawsuit against them. The Cascade statement failed to disclose this, and Cascade has not disclosed it or addressed it since Dec 4th.

This is way beyond a problem with the helmet, PSG and Cascade have misled consumers and lied about their status being a temporary paperwork problem.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:50 PM
The one against Cascade was withdrawn. The one against Warrior was not. Warrior has been pretty quiet through all this and Nocsae says they're still shipping decerted helmets. My WAG is that because Cascade agreed to stop shipping, Nocsae didn't need that lawsuit.

The troubling thing is that in March 2014 Nocsae told Cascade its R was bad and nobody did nothing. I know I bought our son's after March. Cascade really needs a good spanking.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://www.sginews.com/EMS_Base/EMS...ce-sports-group-over-cascade-helmet.aspx


Check out the link above.... NOCSAE is suing Cascade/PSG/bauer


That suit was filed on 12/4 and actually withdrawn on 12/5


Do you have a link to that?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 05:04 PM
This is really getting stranger and stranger. This case against Cascade (Performance Lacrosse Group) was withdrawn on December 9th (yesterday).

Also on December 4th, NOCSAE sued Warrior Sports in the same court and that case remains open. I don't have copies of the lawsuits.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/10/14 05:23 PM
they filed the motion to dismiss on the 5th an the judge signed the order on the 9th. not unusual for there to be a delay like that.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 12:08 AM
There is a lot of fishy things going on with NOCSAE and STX. Isn't it a little weird that STX hired some independent company to test out all of their competitors helmets, and found that almost all of them have failed. The results were published months ago, and nothing really happened till the new STX Stallion helmet came out. What's also really interesting is that STX has partnered up with Schutt, and they also have a partnership with Nike. Why does that matter, well Schutt and Nike have people who are on the board of NOCSAE. To top it all off the recall was placed close to Black Friday, a day that most major lacrosse retailers would have a nice discount for someone to buy a new helmet.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 12:36 AM
Yes that is accurate. It can be found on the NOCSAE website
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 01:17 AM
Wake up sheep. It's all planned to screw Cascade. NOCSAE noard member have a direct conflict of interest here. Have your own independent view and it's clear it's bull shite.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
There is a lot of fishy things going on with NOCSAE and STX. Isn't it a little weird that STX hired some independent company to test out all of their competitors helmets, and found that almost all of them have failed. The results were published months ago, and nothing really happened till the new STX Stallion helmet came out. What's also really interesting is that STX has partnered up with Schutt, and they also have a partnership with Nike. Why does that matter, well Schutt and Nike have people who are on the board of NOCSAE. To top it all off the recall was placed close to Black Friday, a day that most major lacrosse retailers would have a nice discount for someone to buy a new helmet.


I have smelled the same fish since the story broke. Which is why I continue to believe that any law suits forthcoming (particularly ones coming from the kid who used an old helmet in Wellington FL and was airlifted to the hospital) should be directed squarely at NOCSAE.

In a word, COLLUSION.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 02:19 AM
Schutt and Nike do each have a member on the board, but the other 14 members (the majority) of the board are mostly medical professional who have no skin in this game.
The recent Inside Lacrosse article is a very easy to follow breakdown of the situation that does a great job of stating facts and touches on the timeline: http://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/what-is-nocsae-why-are-the-r-regulator-decertified-/30264
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Schutt and Nike do each have a member on the board, but the other 14 members (the majority) of the board are mostly medical professional who have no skin in this game.
The recent Inside Lacrosse article is a very easy to follow breakdown of the situation that does a great job of stating facts and touches on the timeline: http://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/what-is-nocsae-why-are-the-r-regulator-decertified-/30264


And I suppose you trusted that you could keep your own doctor and Benghazi wasn't a terrorist attack. Or that the bail out was a good idea. C'mon dude wake up will you.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 03:33 AM
If you think Nike and Schutt have no influence on the NOCSAE board beyond their 2 votes your a complete idiot.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:02 AM
And if you still think its a "fitting guide mistake" and that the R didn't really fail testing than you are as well.

I've used Cascade all my life, but the facts are that the R failed. I'm interested in knowing if its an issue with all their products as based on the Inside Lacrosse article it seems like NOCSAE will be having them tested as well. Cascade has been very quiet and in my mind has a lot of explaining to do
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
And if you still think its a "fitting guide mistake" and that the R didn't really fail testing than you are as well.

I've used Cascade all my life, but the facts are that the R failed. I'm interested in knowing if its an issue with all their products as based on the Inside Lacrosse article it seems like NOCSAE will be having them tested as well. Cascade has been very quiet and in my mind has a lot of explaining to do


Didn't the STX advertisement show that another Cascade helmet failed at a high percentage? Not enough to decertify I guess, but it was a high number. There would seem to be a need to retest everything, even if STX is colluding to kill off the competition.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
And if you still think its a "fitting guide mistake" and that the R didn't really fail testing than you are as well.

I've used Cascade all my life, but the facts are that the R failed. I'm interested in knowing if its an issue with all their products as based on the Inside Lacrosse article it seems like NOCSAE will be having them tested as well. Cascade has been very quiet and in my mind has a lot of explaining to do


Didn't the STX advertisement show that another Cascade helmet failed at a high percentage? Not enough to decertify I guess, but it was a high number. There would seem to be a need to retest everything, even if STX is colluding to kill off the competition.


Didn't the test show that STX also had some high numbers as well? close enough to failing that with high probability a number of helmets will fail. No helmet will prevent a concussion.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 02:27 PM
There are two types of people in this world bucket heads and pin heads. My son is a bucket head. The silver lining to this issue is that my son has borrowed a buddy's Pro7 during this debacle and has learned that this helmet is much more comfortable on his ginormous bucket head. He has been very uncomfortable with his R all year as it seems to of been designed for pin heads.

just my $0.02
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:13 PM
http://www.chimicles.com/cascade-model-r-lacrosse-helmets-class-action-lawsuit
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:39 PM


the two fileds/links on the site do not work

email us about this case
alert me to this case
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:50 PM
United States Lacrosse (“USL”), the governing body of lacrosse in the United States, warned coaches, parents, and players not to use the Cascade Model R helmets or allow them to be worn in games. USL further alerted tournament officials to remove any player wearing a Cascade Model R helmet.......wish they would be take their own age guidelines as seriously they do the helmet issue. Makes one wonder if there's more to the story.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:50 PM
It was going to happen. Just a bit surprised at how soon. When you're in a sport with a lot of parents that are lawyers you run risks. IMO Cascade has bungled this thing. They were told in March they had a problem and apparently didn't react. They could have fixed it between then and now and it wouldn't have put the whole community into a tail spin. And they keep claiming that its not a safety issue but a certification issue.

How long will it take to manufacture, distribute and install 100,000 retrofits? I don't see any possibility that even if they were approved today that they could have it done by the beginning of the season.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
It was going to happen. Just a bit surprised at how soon. When you're in a sport with a lot of parents that are lawyers you run risks. IMO Cascade has bungled this thing. They were told in March they had a problem and apparently didn't react. They could have fixed it between then and now and it wouldn't have put the whole community into a tail spin. And they keep claiming that its not a safety issue but a certification issue.

How long will it take to manufacture, distribute and install 100,000 retrofits? I don't see any possibility that even if they were approved today that they could have it done by the beginning of the season.


Imagine this came out in March would there have been no 2104 season.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 06:15 PM


Ah, the soothing sounds of sirens and smell of rats from the Delaware bar. Get out your shine box, class action time baby. Victim Nation.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 06:21 PM
Do you think coinsidering the circumstance that a lot of people are going to switch over to the Stallion before the season? Will they have enough if people start ordering?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 08:01 PM
Just an FYI:

My son's CPX-R was re-certified by Riddell and has the NOCSAE sticker on it. High School sent helmets out at the end of last season and were just returned.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/11/14 10:10 PM
CPX-R never lost its cert
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 01:28 AM
anybody look into college ice hockey helmets? box lax helmets? they seem to do the job? any input?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
anybody look into college ice hockey helmets? box lax helmets? they seem to do the job? any input?


For what? The Cascade R does the job just fine for the game of lacrosse. You know anyone who got seriously hurt using one?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 02:44 PM
I haven't been able to find an answer when a particular helmet needs to be recertified/reconditioned, but here's an article about it. Recertification doesn't mean just certifying helmets that had been decertified (like the R), but helmets that are older, like the CPX-R or the Pro7. Maybe reconditioned is a better word. The second article below talks about the reconditioning process for helmets (football) and limitations on it.

http://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/be-smart-parents-the-life-of-a-helmet/21910

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/high...b982bbc-7513-5e7e-9be4-54b225e4aa5b.html
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 05:39 PM
there is no such thing as a concussion proof helmet. A heavier helmet does not mean that it is more protective. take a look at football, those heavy helmets are practically weapons. Ridell tried to get into the lacrosse helmet production, and they claimed with all of their NFL statistics and technology, they produced a concussion proof helmet. turns out that it wasnt. Lacrosse and football helmets need to differentiate because of the different impact speeds and zones.
I would not use a hockey helmet to play lacrosse in. Hockey helmets are designed for a different types of impact compared to lacrosse. the two sports are played at different speeds and space.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 06:29 PM
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated


Not a simple fix, but a fix none the less! And costly to Cascade, but not my problem!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated


Not a simple fix, but a fix none the less! And costly to Cascade, but not my problem!


if the retro fit changes the feel or look - will people be able to get their money back. This could be a nightmare. Kids loved the look and some liked the feel. if either change it is not what they purchased.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated


Not a simple fix, but a fix none the less! And costly to Cascade, but not my problem!


It sounds like a simple fix. From reading their statement it sounds like they are putting an extra cushion in helmet. The biggest cost ( which will be a lot) will be shipping it looks like.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/12/14 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous


Ah, the soothing sounds of sirens and smell of rats from the Delaware bar. Get out your shine box, class action time baby. Victim Nation.


Couldn't agree more. Cascade seemed to be doing the right thing from start. Now they have a fix and everyone can send theirs in and get fixed. Of course there is an inconvenience of it but a lawsuit???
Guarantee that the individuals owners get less than 50 dollars each if that and lawyers get 500 thousand plus.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/13/14 03:49 AM
Now I heard the STX Stallion helmets lab data was incorrect and will soon be decertified. Is this true?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/13/14 10:12 AM
That would be funny because I have been getting E mails from all the lacrosse equipment websites saying they have hundreds of stx helmets in stock and ready to ship.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/13/14 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated


Not a simple fix, but a fix none the less! And costly to Cascade, but not my problem!


if the retro fit changes the feel or look - will people be able to get their money back. This could be a nightmare. Kids loved the look and some liked the feel. if either change it is not what they purchased.


Padding in this helmet sucks and always did. I custom formed orthotic open cell padding that is more comfy than a temperpedic mattress.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/13/14 06:46 PM
Yeah, that's real smart Mcgiver. Put dense foam that was not designed to take a impact and rattle the kids brain.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/13/14 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
http://r.cascadelacrosse.com/

looks like Cascade worked it out so that customers can send Rs in to be re fabricated


Not a simple fix, but a fix none the less! And costly to Cascade, but not my problem!


if the retro fit changes the feel or look - will people be able to get their money back. This could be a nightmare. Kids loved the look and some liked the feel. if either change it is not what they purchased.


Padding in this helmet sucks and always did. I custom formed orthotic open cell padding that is more comfy than a temperpedic mattress.


I bet if they bothered to inspect it, it would be called illegal to use it. As modified, it would not be A certified helmet. So take off your sticker. Lol
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


Ah, the soothing sounds of sirens and smell of rats from the Delaware bar. Get out your shine box, class action time baby. Victim Nation.


Couldn't agree more. Cascade seemed to be doing the right thing from start. Now they have a fix and everyone can send theirs in and get fixed. Of course there is an inconvenience of it but a lawsuit???
Guarantee that the individuals owners get less than 50 dollars each if that and lawyers get 500 thousand plus.


Doing the right thing? They put out a helmet that failed NOCSAE standards yet claimed to pass... that seems like a slam dunk for any legal team with a class action lawsuit or individual ones for players that had serious injury while wearing it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
anybody look into college ice hockey helmets? box lax helmets? they seem to do the job? any input?


For what? The Cascade R does the job just fine for the game of lacrosse. You know anyone who got seriously hurt using one?


You don't want to go there. They are having their own set of issues. Read this....

http://laxallstars.com/hot-pot-problem-box-lacrosse-helmets/

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX stallion is noticably heavier than the R.


I finally got my hands on a Stallion as well as a CPX-R and could not tell the difference in weight.

In other words, if there is a difference in weight, it is not significant.

The Stallion definitely is not as heavy as a football helmet.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX stallion is noticably heavier than the R.


I finally got my hands on a Stallion as well as a CPX-R and could not tell the difference in weight.

In other words, if there is a difference in weight, it is not significant.

The Stallion definitely is not as heavy as a football helmet.



to bad Ive heard unofficially anyone caught wearing one will be thought of differently
Posted By: TheBackOfTheCage Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 02:17 PM
CASCADE LACROSSE ANNOUNCES SOLUTION FOR CASCADE R HELMET

Cascade Lacrosse has reached an agreement with the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) on a solution for the recently decertified Cascade R helmet.

The solution will involve a simple modification to Cascade R helmets currently in the marketplace. NOCSAE has accepted the solution. Cascade's data confirms the helmet, as modified by this solution, meets NOCSAE certification standards. For NOCSAE certification purposes, the modified helmet is treated as a new model, identified as the Cascade R-M, although it will continue to be marketed by Cascade under the Cascade R name. Moving forward all newly manufactured Cascade R-M helmets will be certified as meeting the NOCSAE standards. A tamper-resistant sticker will be placed on all modified helmets as well as on newly manufactured Cascade R-M helmets to differentiate them from non-certified Cascade R models. Model R helmets that have not been ofifcially modified by Cascade do not meet NOCSAE standards and certification will remain void.

Cascade will make the modification to existing helmets at its Liverpool, N.Y. facility beginning December 16, 2014. The modification will be free of charge for consumers and retailers, including shipping.

"We are extremely pleased that Cascade and NOCSAE have reached an agreement to modify existing Cascade R helmets and put helmets back in play for our loyal customers," said Tim Ellsworth, Global Business Director, Cascade Lacrosse. "We have been working closely with NOCSAE and will work diligently to ensure that all Cascade R helmets returned are modified as quickly as possible. We thank everyone for their patience and support."

To fully reinstate the NOCSAE license, which was suspended in conjunction with the R model decertification, Cascade is cooperating with a review by NOCSAE of certification data for all of its models, and is having a third-party audit of Cascade's quality assurance and quality control (QA/QC) processes.

Cascade is currently finalizing its own internal audit and expects the third-party QA/QC audit to be completed by December 18, 2014. NOCSAE will partially reinstate Cascade's license agreement for the production of new Cascade R-M helmets upon demonstratiion of satisfactory audit results fr its QA/QC processes. The license agreement will be fully restored for other Cascade models upon demonstrating that such models certified by Cascade are supported by necessary data.

Cascade is also currently reviewing test results for all of its lacrosse helmets to ensure they meet both Cascade and NOCSAE standards.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse

Click HERE for More Information On Completing The Cascade R Modification Process

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX stallion is noticably heavier than the R.


I finally got my hands on a Stallion as well as a CPX-R and could not tell the difference in weight.

In other words, if there is a difference in weight, it is not significant.

The Stallion definitely is not as heavy as a football helmet.



to bad Ive heard unofficially anyone caught wearing one will be thought of differently


What does that mean? Its a helmet!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 06:07 PM
Again, I will remind the forum . This is NOT Bill Brine's Cascade. This is PSG
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/14/14 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Again, I will remind the forum . This is NOT Bill Brine's Cascade. This is PSG


So what.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/15/14 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah, that's real smart Mcgiver. Put dense foam that was not designed to take a impact and rattle the kids brain.


Guess again. As a manufacturer of military and industrial related safety equipment i think we know what we are doing. Good day!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/15/14 04:58 PM
I took a good look at my kid's R before I put it in the box and I can see that at the middle top of the helmet there is no padding. Well, there's a thin layer of foam, but the Seven padding is not there at all. I can see why the R failed the top of head impact tests. In retrospect its pretty obvious.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/15/14 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah, that's real smart Mcgiver. Put dense foam that was not designed to take a impact and rattle the kids brain.


Guess again. As a manufacturer of military and industrial related safety equipment i think we know what we are doing. Good day!


I think the point here is, even if you have used all your talents and created the safest helmet known to man, your kid can't wear it in any sanctioned event unless it gets refurbished and re-certified by Cascade.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/15/14 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah, that's real smart Mcgiver. Put dense foam that was not designed to take a impact and rattle the kids brain.


Guess again. As a manufacturer of military and industrial related safety equipment i think we know what we are doing. Good day!


I think the point here is, even if you have used all your talents and created the safest helmet known to man, your kid can't wear it in any sanctioned event unless it gets refurbished and re-certified by Cascade.


If it was inspected, it would be deemed non conforming. And God forbid it if you kid got hurt!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/15/14 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah, that's real smart Mcgiver. Put dense foam that was not designed to take a impact and rattle the kids brain.


Guess again. As a manufacturer of military and industrial related safety equipment i think we know what we are doing. Good day!


I think the point here is, even if you have used all your talents and created the safest helmet known to man, your kid can't wear it in any sanctioned event unless it gets refurbished and re-certified by Cascade.


Wasn't looking to create the safest helmet known to man. I was only criticizing the quality and FEEL of the current padding PRIOR to the decert of the R. I plan on getting my kids helmet re-certified.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/16/14 03:29 AM
OKay mcgiver, may I retorte. Anybody stupid enough to modify their child's helmet without having any experience designing and safety testing sports helmets is a moron.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/16/14 12:13 PM
So does that make the people at cascade morons because they have experience and built one and marketed one that fails. Seems to me this guys helmet would do the same exact job. Might even be safer. Again the other poster said it correct. There is not a helmet on the market in any sport that will stop head injuries.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/16/14 06:12 PM
Cascade has a video out as to its fix. More foam.

http://www.insidelacrosse.com/artic...tion-for-r-helmet-re-certification/30299
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/17/14 03:33 AM
Ridiculous
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/17/14 06:51 PM
What part is ridiculous?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/17/14 08:28 PM
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/17/14 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.


Ha ha. Let it rest. The test data is meaningless in the on-field environment and this charade was a farce. Go ahead and buy an STX if it soothes your helicopter parenting gene.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/17/14 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.


Ha ha. Let it rest. The test data is meaningless in the on-field environment and this charade was a farce. Go ahead and buy an STX if it soothes your helicopter parenting gene.


NOSCOE made such a big deal about 4 small pieces of foam. Looks like it wasn't even necessary. STX definitely had friends on the NOSCOE board and wanted a coup on the lax helmet world. Thanks cascade for resolving the issue quick.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/18/14 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.



Ha ha. Let it rest. The test data is meaningless in the on-field environment and this charade was a farce. Go ahead and buy an STX if it soothes your helicopter parenting gene.



Ageed. Please give us some data on head injuries to the "many" players wearing the R helmet, or Warrior for that matter. STX/Nike/Shupp, all have influence on the NOCSAE board. Smacks of collusion.

Cascade has responded professionally. So long as the modified helmets meet NOCSAE standards and they are cleared for competition, let the games begin.

Although, this whole experience has made me question the legitimacy of the NOCSAE board.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/18/14 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.



Ha ha. Let it rest. The test data is meaningless in the on-field environment and this charade was a farce. Go ahead and buy an STX if it soothes your helicopter parenting gene.



Ageed. Please give us some data on head injuries to the "many" players wearing the R helmet, or Warrior for that matter. STX/Nike/Shupp, all have influence on the NOCSAE board. Smacks of collusion.

Cascade has responded professionally. So long as the modified helmets meet NOCSAE standards and they are cleared for competition, let the games begin.

Although, this whole experience has made me question the legitimacy of the NOCSAE board.


Agreed
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/18/14 10:04 PM
I will say this. Shipped my sons R out on saturday. They got it tuesday and it was returned to me tonight. All recertified. That was quick
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 12:26 AM
Same here. Received by Cascade on Wednesday and back at the house today. Padding added and certification sticker attached. Amazing turnaround, although I suspect it might slow a bit as the wave of helmets hits them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 04:50 AM
Same here. Fast and efficient! Good recovery by Cascade.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 11:17 AM
From the amount of padding they put in my sons r helmet to make it comply, I think some of the other company's were boo hooing because cascade was selling so many helmets. And it's funny how all these online company's selling lacrosse gear all of a sudden had hundreds of STX helmets in stock and ready to ship.....
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Same here. Received by Cascade on Wednesday and back at the house today. Padding added and certification sticker attached. Amazing turnaround, although I suspect it might slow a bit as the wave of helmets hits them.


Did the added padding affect the fit at all? Where did they add it? We sent ours out Wed so Im hoping next week sometime although with Xmas probably not.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
From the amount of padding they put in my sons r helmet to make it comply, I think some of the other company's were boo hooing because cascade was selling so many helmets. And it's funny how all these online company's selling lacrosse gear all of a sudden had hundreds of STX helmets in stock and ready to ship.....


Ha! So true. Just take a look at the photos in the most recent IL or Lacrosse magazine and it's clear how dominant the R is at the highest level of the game. For anyone who thinks that this cluster was about helmet safety, well there's a bridge that you can buy as well.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 01:49 PM
Sent out helmet on Tues, got it back on Thur. Padding does not affect fit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 04:21 PM
Wonder what STX is gonna do now. Looks like their marketing people are not going to have a great holiday after all!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I'd like Cascade to publish their test data for the modified helmet. STX has published its data and it looks good. After all this trouble, Cascade should be transparent and let the world know its passing data. I'd like to be able to compare apples to apples with the new STX helmet.


just go out and buy the STX, it is obvious you want to, you can't compare Apple 2 Apples with different manufacturers, you could compare this as to McIntosh 2 Red Delicous... maybe!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 06:32 PM
I have a feeling the majority of sales in the future are going to be based on deals the manufacturers sign with clubs, rec depts, high schools and colleges. All major manufacturers now can offer the full suite of sticks pads and helmets. Maverik was already pushing its weight around once they had cascade. Now stx can do the same with the shutt. Warrior still needs to add some padding.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/19/14 07:46 PM
My son got his back yesterday too. We have another one to send out. He tried on both the fixed and not fixed helmets yesterday. He said the feel is about the same but the fixed one may be a bit softer. He also said the fit did not change. He only put it on for about ten seconds. Who knows when he has it on for an entire game. I compared the old and new padding by eye and touch and it seemed to be about the same padding. I could not see or feel any difference. If there is a difference I did not see it.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Same here. Received by Cascade on Wednesday and back at the house today. Padding added and certification sticker attached. Amazing turnaround, although I suspect it might slow a bit as the wave of helmets hits them.


Did the added padding affect the fit at all? Where did they add it? We sent ours out Wed so Im hoping next week sometime although with Xmas probably not.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/20/14 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Same here. Received by Cascade on Wednesday and back at the house today. Padding added and certification sticker attached. Amazing turnaround, although I suspect it might slow a bit as the wave of helmets hits them.


Did the added padding affect the fit at all? Where did they add it? We sent ours out Wed so Im hoping next week sometime although with Xmas probably not.


The padding was added to the crown of the helmet. My son said his helmet still feels comfortable. Very please with Cascade's professional response.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Same here. Received by Cascade on Wednesday and back at the house today. Padding added and certification sticker attached. Amazing turnaround, although I suspect it might slow a bit as the wave of helmets hits them.


Did the added padding affect the fit at all? Where did they add it? We sent ours out Wed so Im hoping next week sometime although with Xmas probably not.


The padding was added to the crown of the helmet. My son said his helmet still feels comfortable. Very please with Cascade's professional response.


did they start shipping and or selling the approved helmets new yet?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 04:36 PM
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?


The helmet just arrived. Why would an email be necessary? They gave us the tracking number when we registered for the refit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:05 PM
Just arrives. No notification.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?


Just Arrived
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:23 PM
I never received an email from Cascade, but I did receive a notification from UPS that the helmet was shipped and was able to track it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?


No notification of the return. It showed up two days later.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 05:50 PM
No email, just arrived.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 06:12 PM
It just arrived.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 07:27 PM
Received email with tracking number for return.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/22/14 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Received email with tracking number for return.


My kids came back with a golden ticket to Wonkaland...Have a Merry and a Happy all!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/23/14 12:58 PM
make sure he doesnt eaat the gum that tastes like dinner! It doesnt end well
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/23/14 01:53 PM
I received a tracking number from UPS. Terrific turn around time! I guess I'm a cascade loyalist once again.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/23/14 05:47 PM
I sent my helmet in the first day the shipping labels were issued had it back within a week. Great service and turn around!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/23/14 06:03 PM
Never got a tracking number. Opened the door to get mail 3 days after I sent it in and the box was on my stoop. Couldn't not believe it was the helmet already. Fully was expecting the 2 weeks they stated. Great job Cascade.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/23/14 07:22 PM
Anyone have any idea where I can get a new face mask for my R Helmet? Cascade will not ship any parts!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 02:34 PM
Looks like the concussion lawsuits will start.

http://www.consumerclassactionlawyers.com/cascade-model-r-lacrosse-concussion-lawsuit.html
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 02:35 PM
Looks like the concussion lawsuits will start.

http://www.consumerclassactionlawyers.com/cascade-model-r-lacrosse-concussion-lawsuit.html
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 03:24 PM
Not sure where you are but try Port Jeff Sports or Olympic Den.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Anyone have any idea where I can get a new face mask for my R Helmet? Cascade will not ship any parts!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous


What does the helmet have to do with a concussion? But, hey, why let physiology get in the way of a juicy lawsuit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 07:20 PM
Got mine back today. I sent it without the chin strap and got it back with a new one. Strange, but welcome... I guess they would have deemed it unsafe without a chin strap, so I got a new one. The helmet fits as well as it did before I sent it back. Nice recovery Cascade!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/24/14 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous


That sight popped out a few days after the announcement, just pure crap. You really think that there were that many concussions by players using this helmet as opposed to any other helmet, you are dreaming.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/25/14 09:39 PM
I guess it doesn't matter how many concussions there have been if your son or daughter sustained one in this helmet before it was "fixed."
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/26/14 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess it doesn't matter how many concussions there have been if your son or daughter sustained one in this helmet before it was "fixed."


There will be concussions after the "fix". Helmets can do little to prevent concussions. It's simple physics.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/26/14 12:24 PM
Correct, but these helmets pre-fix did not pass the NOCSAE standard, which is designed to prevent skull fractures. Certainly seems possible these helmets did less to prevent a concussion, than a certified helmet would have, if a player was hit on the top of the head where NOCSAE is now making Cascade add more foam to pass the certification standards.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/26/14 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Correct, but these helmets pre-fix did not pass the NOCSAE standard, which is designed to prevent skull fractures. Certainly seems possible these helmets did less to prevent a concussion, than a certified helmet would have, if a player was hit on the top of the head where NOCSAE is now making Cascade add more foam to pass the certification standards.


The mechanism of injury for a skull fracture and a concussion are very different. It is possible to have one without the other in either case. Helmets are designed to prevent skull fractures, not concussions.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/26/14 02:17 PM
You could also have both.
Posted By: lando622 Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/26/14 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?


Sent in my son's R helmet from Ft. Lauderdale, FL on 15 December; it was received on the 19th and we received a UPS shipping notice today (12/26) that it is sked for delivery back to us on Monday, 5 January for a total of 3 weeks out-of-service for us.

Luckily for us, we got the R for him while there was still life left in his CPX-R...we will end up using the CPX-R for 3 tournaments, a 4-day goalie school and a Goalies VS Shooters clinic while his R is gone. Only real downside is that my son says he prefers the CPX-R to the R and I hope he's happy with switching back when it comes in. Both models have similar adjustments for sizing, but the CPX-R seems to have a bit more flex in pulling on/off while the R squeezes more on his head when putting it on/taking it off.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/27/14 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by lando622
Originally Posted by Anonymous
For those of you who have already received your R helmet back, did Cascade send an email letting you know they shipped it back to you or did the helmet just arrive?


Sent in my son's R helmet from Ft. Lauderdale, FL on 15 December; it was received on the 19th and we received a UPS shipping notice today (12/26) that it is sked for delivery back to us on Monday, 5 January for a total of 3 weeks out-of-service for us.

Luckily for us, we got the R for him while there was still life left in his CPX-R...we will end up using the CPX-R for 3 tournaments, a 4-day goalie school and a Goalies VS Shooters clinic while his R is gone. Only real downside is that my son says he prefers the CPX-R to the R and I hope he's happy with switching back when it comes in. Both models have similar adjustments for sizing, but the CPX-R seems to have a bit more flex in pulling on/off while the R squeezes more on his head when putting it on/taking it off.


I think the big concern should be how much lacroase your kid is playing in December!! 😳. I would hate to see the July schedule.
Posted By: lando622 Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/28/14 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I think the big concern should be how much lacroase your kid is playing in December!! 😳. I would hate to see the July schedule.

Good one! I guess that does look a bit much, but this is the best part of the year weather-wise down here and some opportunities happened to dovetail just right to allow for extra participation. Most of our teams finish the summer schedule by early to mid-June and July/August are actually pretty wide open...it's uncomfortably hot/humid and a lot of kids are gone for the summer so there isn't a lot of team activity. Many who do happen to be around are playing youth football or soccer at that time and it encroaches into the fall lax season. We're lucky to get a couple tournaments where a whole team is actually together in the late fall season.

His recertified R helmet will be showing up right after the busiest period we've had all year in lax. No worries, and it'll be good to have it back.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/28/14 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by lando622
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I think the big concern should be how much lacroase your kid is playing in December!! 😳. I would hate to see the July schedule.

Good one! I guess that does look a bit much, but this is the best part of the year weather-wise down here and some opportunities happened to dovetail just right to allow for extra participation. Most of our teams finish the summer schedule by early to mid-June and July/August are actually pretty wide open...it's uncomfortably hot/humid and a lot of kids are gone for the summer so there isn't a lot of team activity. Many who do happen to be around are playing youth football or soccer at that time and it encroaches into the fall lax season. We're lucky to get a couple tournaments where a whole team is actually together in the late fall season.

His recertified R helmet will be showing up right after the busiest period we've had all year in lax. No worries, and it'll be good to have it back.


You sound like a southern parent who has is all squared away. Try to stay away from the NE nuts who have just gone off the rails.

The helmets were "fine", (very few injuries/nothing in the news) prior to this whole fiasco. Since then, Cascade has responded appropriately. Let's not forget the cozy relationship that Nike/Shupp/STX has with regard to NOCSAE.
Posted By: lando622 Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/28/14 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You sound like a southern parent who has is all squared away. Try to stay away from the NE nuts who have just gone off the rails.

The helmets were "fine", (very few injuries/nothing in the news) prior to this whole fiasco. Since then, Cascade has responded appropriately. Let's not forget the cozy relationship that Nike/Shupp/STX has with regard to NOCSAE.

Roger all on the helmets and I agree with your observation about the manufacturer-NOCSAE relationship; even if it happens to be innocent/conincidental there are at least a couple indicators of blurred lines. The e-mail blast by STX about their helmets being the only ones to meet NOCSAE standards a month before the helmets were even available and before this whole thing blew up just seemed like something out of Conspiracy Theory when all of a sudden Cascade and Warrior helmets were no longer OK. Strange, but I haven't seen or heard any info regarding the Warrior helmets.

I'd PM you as this strays off-topic, but couldn't figure out how to as your post was Anonymous...please don't get the mistaken impression that southern lax is any more pure or sane than in other places. Following this board for the past 6 months (and only posting 3 times total, all in this thread), I've been surprised at what people will put in a forum about youth sports, and it confirms that what we see on the sidelines down here is unfortunately universal with respect to lax. I am not in the "know" like many seem to be on this board, and I feel like a Boy Scout meeting Serpico reading about some of the topics on here (like the Age Verification thread).

Adding in the youth football piece may make the southern lax sidelines as volatile as anywhere else...several parents yelling for kids to "deck him" or "take him out" and cheering football-style hits at the U11 and U13 levels then going apoplectic on the refs when their kid gets a penalty for doing exactly what dad says. Of course, dad doesn't know the rules but that doesn't stop him from going crazy on the guys who do.

There are 3 lax seasons down here, all outdoor: winter rec from Jan-Apr, summer travel from May-June and fall travel from Oct-Dec. Sprinkle in a bit of outdoor box lax (turfed-over hockey rinks) and the occasional clinics put on by lax guys happy to not shovel snow for a few days in the winter and who want to hang on the beach in the summer, and that fills up the year.

For better or worse, any outdoor sport like soccer, lax, baseball, etc is done nearly year round to the detriment/exclusion of other sports and that my son is a goalie means it's never easy to skip a lax event as replacements aren't plentiful.

The huge positive for all this and the major reason my kid (and my wife and me) love it is because of the true team sport atmosphere that we get to enjoy more than what comes out on these forums. We've been fortunate to meet great kids, parents and coaches and our son has had experiences that we never did at his age. Winning fair, losing despite best effort, working hard, meeting great people, appreciating great competition, etc...all great lessons on and beyond the field. We're not blind to some of the ugliness, but the ride has been definitely worth it so far.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/28/14 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by lando622
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You sound like a southern parent who has is all squared away. Try to stay away from the NE nuts who have just gone off the rails.

The helmets were "fine", (very few injuries/nothing in the news) prior to this whole fiasco. Since then, Cascade has responded appropriately. Let's not forget the cozy relationship that Nike/Shupp/STX has with regard to NOCSAE.

Roger all on the helmets and I agree with your observation about the manufacturer-NOCSAE relationship; even if it happens to be innocent/conincidental there are at least a couple indicators of blurred lines. The e-mail blast by STX about their helmets being the only ones to meet NOCSAE standards a month before the helmets were even available and before this whole thing blew up just seemed like something out of Conspiracy Theory when all of a sudden Cascade and Warrior helmets were no longer OK. Strange, but I haven't seen or heard any info regarding the Warrior helmets.

I'd PM you as this strays off-topic, but couldn't figure out how to as your post was Anonymous...please don't get the mistaken impression that southern lax is any more pure or sane than in other places. Following this board for the past 6 months (and only posting 3 times total, all in this thread), I've been surprised at what people will put in a forum about youth sports, and it confirms that what we see on the sidelines down here is unfortunately universal with respect to lax. I am not in the "know" like many seem to be on this board, and I feel like a Boy Scout meeting Serpico reading about some of the topics on here (like the Age Verification thread).

Adding in the youth football piece may make the southern lax sidelines as volatile as anywhere else...several parents yelling for kids to "deck him" or "take him out" and cheering football-style hits at the U11 and U13 levels then going apoplectic on the refs when their kid gets a penalty for doing exactly what dad says. Of course, dad doesn't know the rules but that doesn't stop him from going crazy on the guys who do.

There are 3 lax seasons down here, all outdoor: winter rec from Jan-Apr, summer travel from May-June and fall travel from Oct-Dec. Sprinkle in a bit of outdoor box lax (turfed-over hockey rinks) and the occasional clinics put on by lax guys happy to not shovel snow for a few days in the winter and who want to hang on the beach in the summer, and that fills up the year.

For better or worse, any outdoor sport like soccer, lax, baseball, etc is done nearly year round to the detriment/exclusion of other sports and that my son is a goalie means it's never easy to skip a lax event as replacements aren't plentiful.

The huge positive for all this and the major reason my kid (and my wife and me) love it is because of the true team sport atmosphere that we get to enjoy more than what comes out on these forums. We've been fortunate to meet great kids, parents and coaches and our son has had experiences that we never did at his age. Winning fair, losing despite best effort, working hard, meeting great people, appreciating great competition, etc...all great lessons on and beyond the field. We're not blind to some of the ugliness, but the ride has been definitely worth it so far.



Way too thoughtful!!! Get off this website! Give the crazies and know it alls their pages back.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/29/14 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by lando622
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You sound like a southern parent who has is all squared away. Try to stay away from the NE nuts who have just gone off the rails.

The helmets were "fine", (very few injuries/nothing in the news) prior to this whole fiasco. Since then, Cascade has responded appropriately. Let's not forget the cozy relationship that Nike/Shupp/STX has with regard to NOCSAE.

Roger all on the helmets and I agree with your observation about the manufacturer-NOCSAE relationship; even if it happens to be innocent/conincidental there are at least a couple indicators of blurred lines. The e-mail blast by STX about their helmets being the only ones to meet NOCSAE standards a month before the helmets were even available and before this whole thing blew up just seemed like something out of Conspiracy Theory when all of a sudden Cascade and Warrior helmets were no longer OK. Strange, but I haven't seen or heard any info regarding the Warrior helmets.

I'd PM you as this strays off-topic, but couldn't figure out how to as your post was Anonymous...please don't get the mistaken impression that southern lax is any more pure or sane than in other places. Following this board for the past 6 months (and only posting 3 times total, all in this thread), I've been surprised at what people will put in a forum about youth sports, and it confirms that what we see on the sidelines down here is unfortunately universal with respect to lax. I am not in the "know" like many seem to be on this board, and I feel like a Boy Scout meeting Serpico reading about some of the topics on here (like the Age Verification thread).

Adding in the youth football piece may make the southern lax sidelines as volatile as anywhere else...several parents yelling for kids to "deck him" or "take him out" and cheering football-style hits at the U11 and U13 levels then going apoplectic on the refs when their kid gets a penalty for doing exactly what dad says. Of course, dad doesn't know the rules but that doesn't stop him from going crazy on the guys who do.

There are 3 lax seasons down here, all outdoor: winter rec from Jan-Apr, summer travel from May-June and fall travel from Oct-Dec. Sprinkle in a bit of outdoor box lax (turfed-over hockey rinks) and the occasional clinics put on by lax guys happy to not shovel snow for a few days in the winter and who want to hang on the beach in the summer, and that fills up the year.

For better or worse, any outdoor sport like soccer, lax, baseball, etc is done nearly year round to the detriment/exclusion of other sports and that my son is a goalie means it's never easy to skip a lax event as replacements aren't plentiful.

The huge positive for all this and the major reason my kid (and my wife and me) love it is because of the true team sport atmosphere that we get to enjoy more than what comes out on these forums. We've been fortunate to meet great kids, parents and coaches and our son has had experiences that we never did at his age. Winning fair, losing despite best effort, working hard, meeting great people, appreciating great competition, etc...all great lessons on and beyond the field. We're not blind to some of the ugliness, but the ride has been definitely worth it so far.



It is pople like u who make the sport all messed up for nuts like me...Pease leave so we can go back to slamming U11 teams and arguring over who is a better U9 player.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 12/30/14 08:01 PM
Sent 2 helmets back on 12/23, got them both back today (12/30), received notification from UPS upon pickup @CascadeLacrosse. Excellent turn-around time considering the holidays.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 01/02/15 04:08 PM
Sent my sons helmet out and received it back within a week. Son tried it on and no issues what so ever. Thank you Cascade. Nice job!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 01/02/15 04:20 PM
Sent one in December 19 from Long Island and still have not got it back.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Cascade R helmets not certified - 03/17/18 09:32 PM
Hey bud I have heard plenty of football layers complain that there head and necks hurt from wearing heavy helmets which is also the reason why i had extremely problems with my neck muscles
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