Use this thread to discuss this heavily talked about topic. Remember to oblige by the forum rules and to not use ANY names.

This is hysterical.

I don't see an issue with holdbacks. If this will help a kid mature and have a better chance of playing in college while potentially saving more money, then that is great.

Can’t he hang with the big boys and play in his own age group?

Play up until 8th grade, as high as reasonable. You'll get better, and the libs can argue with the refs, coaches, spouses, weather, grass, and their own kids again, like in the good old days. Once you hit 8th, anyone but your own parents can mind their own business, or eat a bag of (censored).

Spoken like a true cheating Holdback parent... Loser. I'm sure you held them back because of the academic challenges the simpleton was having in school, or was it they socially couldn't handle it so they had to stay back, or was it your boy just couldn't keep up competitively on the field and play with his peers (Yeah, that sounds about right). Don't worry son you are GREAT just as long as you are playing with the little kids, and mommy and daddy will make sure of it. That's right that's real life. "If you can't compete just repeat." And Again, And Again. You'll get it son.

The influence of MIAA school parents and the large amount of their prefirst children in Private schools has given us grade base lacrosse in MD.

!.Everyone knows there is an advantage playing against children generally younger than you. Especially prior to HS

2, Everyone knows it is within the rules for HOCO and many tournaments.

3. The big question is about letting these select children get an advantage in youth lacrosse others dont with same birthday.

This was in response to someone suggesting playing up to a level high as possible during youth ball? Wow, your cheeks are so sore, you aren't even trying anymore. Your narrative is the argument!

Don't just blame it on the MIAA or IAAM - there is also the WCAC.
Here's a tree in the woods thought: If everyone else is holding back, is it really an advantage to hold back? Just wondering.

Everyone complains about safety when the holdbacks are big kids but no one worries about the late bloomer that is getting crushed by bigger kids his own age. The late bloomers should be forced to repeat for their own safety.

What's the disadvantage of doing an extra year of primary education?

I think most people look at this the wrong way. Trying to control parents behavior or choices is difficult at best. Each situation is different. Some may choose a late start early for many reasons. It is hard to predict if a "pre-first" will end up being a talented lacrosse player prior to K. However holding back in 8th grade for an athletic advantage may seem crazy to some but very logical to others. Try explaining this logic to a public school family in the midwest for "lacrosse" which is not a professional sport and you may get a confused reaction. However I think that we should not focus this issue solely on the parents. Instead of asking what is the upside to holdbacks in top tournament and the HOCO league, we should ask the HOCO league officials what would be the downside of creating age based classifications and having a minimal form of enforcement? The answer may be that the top clubs will not play. This would hold true for current classes 2024-2022 but what about younger ages? We have to start somewhere. For those who claim it would never happen because it does not benefit the clubs look at the early recruiting issue. This was a boom for the clubs. They built business off being the only game in town and parents fears that if my son did not commit by 9th grade it was over. The clubs won't admit this but the new rule does not help them. Yet, it was still able to be changed. The holdback issue is similar in many ways. However the target should be USL and HOCO not the parents they are simply doing what they feel is best for their family.

Isn't club supposed to be more advanced than rec, for kids that want to hone in on a primary sport, and definitely play in HS? For $2,000/yr the expectation should be that the league is very challenging, correct? Because for $100 during Spring, they can just play rec for fun, correct? We've had age spreads for 30 years, so safety should not be an issue for two consecutive grades playing together. Are we sure that people aren't signing up for club, mistaking it for a community service, like rec, because, for example, friends and buddies are doing it? For $2,000/yr, plus travel, the league better darn sure emulate what to expect for the foreseeable future. I'm not paying that kind of money for my kid to have a false expectation that he is a superstar. I think kids under the "holdback" argument should play up at age or even +1 depending on ability all day long until HS, but honestly, if my kid thinks he's one of the best kids out there, because it's only kids exactly his age, he's not getting better, and he's not pushing his limits. Does anyone really want their kid to be the best 10 year old anything, except maybe best brother or sister to his siblings!? I say play up until HS, but I also want my kid to be pushed a bit, so yeah, it's a tough argument at the youth level.

Holdbacks, also see Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club thread (disambiguation)

I swear, I have seen this exact text in multiple forums. Did you create a special clipboard item for it?

LOL!

Holding kids back works in athletics and academics.

Private schools have perfected holding kids back or doing a prefirst. There is no longer any stigma for doing this. Years ago anyone held back was looked on as lacking in something.

And along with hardly anything considered wrong now a days except being a white male. Holding back in public isnt looked down on either.

So you have no reason not to hold your child back?? There is no question that there is an advantage.

But they have no true friends,

you idiot....you obviously have no friends! Your son must hate you because you are suck a loser and can't understand why parents make a decision that will benefit their
child throughout their whole life. If you had done this for your child maybe he won't need to work at the 7-11 like you.

Hey - if your kid can't compete on the field - why not hold em back. It's the Baltimore way.

My kid in top 20 D1 school, your kid is a 16 year old freak with no friends loser
,

Not just Baltimore ...The Private Schools in DC area are loaded with holdbacks

This is a tough one, it does make a lot of sense for some. Kids do grow late and opportunity may pass them by. My son is on grade (no pre-first) and was a little underpowered in 7th-8th grades. He plays for one of the NLF teams and was de facto playing up. It was challenging at times but he hit the wall and the gym and added 12 pounds between 9th and 10th and about 10 mph on both hands. We thought about it, but he was very competitive in the classroom and it made no sense at the time. I cannot judge because every case is different, it is certainly easier when cost is no object. The thing that does suck is when your kid who is playing a lot has a mediocre repeater drops down and take playing time from him.

With the end of early recruiting the dash to reclass is going to fade. Not to mention that youth lacrosse will eventually go enitirely age based despite what the holdback crowd thinks. The college coaches all know who the older kids are anyway - if your kid can handle himself playing against them even better.

a top 20 D 1 school you must be so proud.....if you're not in a top 10 D1 school you might as well be playing college club lacrosse. All my sons played on top 4 teams and they were all pre- first.

what a tool bragging about a top D20 program.....you need to get a life!

So all your sons are cheaters that's great,

Funny thing about hold back parents they all think there nothing wrong with it. But in all my years standing on side lines watching lax, i never heard a hold back parent say my kid is a year older or he repeated 8th grade. They all try to act like the kid is great an on age.

The 20th ranked team in the nation this year plays at a significantly higher level than any club team

Your kid is playing lacrosse at Dartmouth - couldn't make the UNC team - what a fail. LOL

keep telling yourself that the 20th ranked D1 school is better then a good club lacrosse team....face it your kid was not an elite high school player. It's probably why you constantly rant about holdbacks.

Why do you think there was such an uproar when UA posted birth dates for the rosters? All the Baltimore and D.C. Kids were exposed.

Holding back works, why do you think so many college coaches redshirt and / or send their recruits to do a PG year? It's more ridiculous at the younger ages but as you get older the impact diminishes, those who complain (me sometimes) aren't "whining" we're just pointing out the indisputable advantage the older kids have and if the holdback parents showed even a little bit of humility it would make the holdback situation somewhat tolerable. Case in point is the FCA parent who constantly says his kids "played up" with the 2019s when they are all born in 2001 anyway.

Agreed. What's the point of playing for any school in D1 outside the top10. The same schools basically win every year. If your kid want's the chance to actually win a championship, and you can get over the point of being an idiot parent who only cares about bragging about your kid, let them go D2, a top school and they can actually win something they will have the rest of their lives. A championship as well as a great education. But i'm assuming you are also likely that dad at every tournament who carries around a stick for absolutely no reason. There are always a few.

Actually you are wrong about impact. The advantage of age has a greater impact as the players get older. It may appear to have a larger impact in 7th and 8th grade bc of obvious size differences, but the teams themselves get older in HS (and better) bc the younger kids don't make it and quit/get cut.

Well, the rankings change week to week throughout the season, but yes, any top 20 Varsity D1 College lacrosse team would absolutely annihilate any college club team in existence. What are we even talking about? Some of the teams that fall into that category week to week from last year are Duke, Army, Loyola, it's just a stupid argument.

This is literally an argument about nothing as related to HS or College. Youth, fine, chatter on all day long, both sides have a case. HS into College, irrelevant. The major HS sports associations have age caps to account for every reasonable circumstance imaginable, and it is never going to go "down". It's basically 19 before Senior year to be eligible. They aren't going to lower it, because a kid could have to repeat a grade for many reasons - could be very stupid, could have a catastrophic accident, could miss a year of school for who cares what reason, could be super lazy, could have parents that transfer around and move a lot, could just like to have another year. It's not changing. NCAA has age caps for Varsity sports and time restrictions between HS and College to be eligible, with some understandable exemptions, such as major injury, military service, charitable service, and a few similar. Never changing the cap in the "down" direction. So, whine, complain, argue all you want, these things have been thought through upside down and backwards. Youth, argue all you want about age versus grade, because there are cases on both sides.

I Rant about holdbacks because it wrong simple has that. FYI, my guy all american this year on age.

So every age group and club post eventually leads to the holdback reclass issue. Admin starts a new thread for the holdback issue and it leads to debating if a club team is as good as Duke or Army??? Strange days ahead

Just go to Birth Year instead of Grade year already...

Bingo

[quote=Anonymous]Agreed. What's the point of playing for any school in D1 outside the top10. The same schools basically win every year. If your kid want's the chance to actually win a championship, and you can get over the point of being an idiot parent who only cares about bragging about your kid, let them go D2, a top school and they can actually win something they will have the rest of their lives. A championship as well as a great education. But i'm assuming you are also likely that dad at every tournament who carries around a stick for absolutely no reason. There are always a few.


I do not care about your other points but I like to carry around my sons back up stick. I do not like to sit down in a beach chair and drag it from field to field. I never played lacrosse so I am not reliving anything. Just wanted to stick up for the guys who like walking sticks at tournaments.

You rant about bs, because your kid plays for a youth or hs b level club team, you are bored, you are an idiot, and you are pretty sure he won't even attain hs success eventually. If your kid was in college, you wouldn't even be on here, nor would the word holdback occupy one second in your mind on any given day.

You rant about bs, because your kid plays for a youth or hs b level club team, you are bored, you are an idiot, and you are pretty sure he won't even attain hs success eventually. If your kid was in college, you wouldn't even be on here, nor would the word holdback occupy one second in your mind on any given day. [/quot
Clearly the true hurts, you most likely have kids that are real social freaks.

This is so True and GREAT statement.

Well our team/club voted to just play in age based tournaments this year. No more Hogan etc. We will likely need to travel a bit farther away from the holdback hotbed, but happy to do it. All you holdback teams can continue your foolish arms race to see how many older kids you can get and win the big title. Good luck. And for the holdback enthusiast trolls, don't you see all the parents of the on-age kids on your team laughing behind your backs? It really is sadly pathetic and feel bad for your child. Those on-age kids on the top teams are the real deal, and we all know it.

whats the common thing about the hold backs? They all go to private schools!

What schools are considered the best academically ..... private schools!

Who's laughing now? The private school kid who your son will be working for someday.

How many 2017 public school grads in Maryland went to D1 college programs last year? How many private?

Considered by who to be the best academically? The same parents who pay for it? Not based in fact at all in this area unless your data point for comparison is Baltimore city schools in which case would agree but several of the surrounding Counties offer equal and at times a better education as evidenced in test scores when comparing like students, they offer more in terms of advanced courses and AP courses due to economies of scale. Both have tangible and intangible other positive and negative factors about them but academics are not superior at the Baltimore private schools. Sports yes as many of the schools offer athletes scholarships and they fill the teams with known elite athletes in the area. Will not go into it in depth here as this topic has been beaten to death on these forums but you really should check your facts prior to posting broad generalizations. You pay for some great things as private schools including smaller class sizes but it really is more about if you feel that your child is best served by a private school that is great but respect that others in outlying counties choose public schools for specific reasons, including the academics, even if offered private school scholarships or money is not an issue.

What a joke of a post. I have a feeling your kid is in a private school for the wrong reasons. The complaining about hold backs in HS/College is pointless. Wankers like you keep it going

Sincerely,

Parent of 2 private school kids who didn't get held back

Please keep in mind that many kids from what you call surrounding counties and outlying counties go to private schools, most of which are in Baltimore County, a few in Howard and Harford and AA Counties. Those parents have a choice and went for private for whatever reason served their child best. The majority of the kids in private are not receiving scholarships.

If you send your kid to a public school and you are complaining about hold backs.....look in the mirror ! Its your fault.

Whats that mean?? We should be sending our on age kid to private school to help out with stats?

two year spreads was because not enough kids were playing back in the stone age...not a problem anymore...play on age...bunch of cheaters who play down

This should break it down for you. Long live the Holdback

Relative age effect - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect

That private school tuition being utilized here a I see; pulling out Wikipedia as a reference tool. Money well spent Dad!!

This means what everyone keeps saying, At youth sports there is an advantage to being the oldest ..That is why all the holdback apologists want it to be by grade. Then their select holdback children will have even more of an advantage over others.than the oldest on age child does .

Yep..This is a good reason to let select children have an advantage. Forget what Youth sports stands for. Lets carve out a select few and see how they do.

It’s this type of social bullying philistine attitude that permeates lacrosse culture. Social freaks? Do you mean “nerds” smart kind kids?
Mark zuckerberg, steve jobs, bill gates, elon musk? Those social freaks? Lacrosse is a game NOT life

Honestly the choice to hold back a child for acedemic or athletic reasons is up to the kid and his parents if you think that this is horrible and unfair then holdback your kid. When your kid is grown up and you are old this 5 year span in his life won't matter that much. At the end of the day arguing over trivial matters likes this on a forum is a waste of your time.

Straw-man argument like most holdback apologists reasons.

No one cares what you do with your child, Hold him/her back 5 times. Who cares...

But why does that give you a special right to play against younger children in YOUTH sports that are BORN on same day as your holdback/prefirst child. Letting select kids play down goes against all that youth sports stand for. If your child gets a special advantage, all players should get the same advantage in Youth sports. Pretty simple concept except to you apologists.

And we are not talking about HS or even Middle school sports which has always gone by grade.

If you want to know how much the prefirsts/holdbacks/reclassed effect Maryland teams...

All you need to know is look at the World Series of Youth Lacrosse teams. Out of 37 teams listed in Inside Lacrosse of supposedly best U13 teams in country.... 3 are from Maryland. And all three are not considered anywhere near the top in MD. Maryland can only compete by older players playing younger players...Pretty Sad state for Youth Lacrosse in MD.

It sure is....

MD may be the worst, but last year they changed the rules for WSYL after clubs try outs and made finalized rosters.- but lets not pretend that NJ,NY,PA,VA,DC,NE,FL,TX don't all have holdbacks. This is a fact. Teams hold separate tryouts and have completely different teams that they send to this 1 tournament. Every other tournament in the country allows the age differential . Not condoning it but its fact, what is not factual is MD can't compete without holdbacks. API made it to the final 4 with a weak team and beat the champion in earlier round. Maybe you should come down and watch some MD fall ball and see the high level of lacrosse from Elite, A,B and Rec teams. MD REC teams can compete against all 37 teams at WSYL. Just because they choose not to participate in 1 tournament doesn't mean they can't compete. Lacrosse in MD is stronger than ever at every level.

Api took on the md elite with one kid that was a pre K and was a face off kid who is very good but wasn’t the starter . Api last year had no holdbacks and competed with the best . They finished 3rd in the World Series of Lacrosse and 9th before roughriders 2022 National championship . So they did pretty well but this year they have change they have holdbacks now they aren’t as good . Api is not a elite team anymore. They lost a lot of good players .

For holdbacks...Exhibit A, B, and C:

2022 Annapolis Hawks
2022 Richmond "Hawks"
2022 DC Express A

🙄

If you are going to play elite you have to have Holdbacks now but I’m sorry my belief is that is cheating before high school .

API has one of the oldest teams out there mostly kids born sept oct 03 birthday days let's not say they don't have have backs. Elite in 3 grade not anymore.

The fact that there is a “holdback” thread in the Maryland forum I’d freaking priceless! Go to LI and most of your top kids would be playing a year above! You guys kill me!

First of all, you’re a fool. Yes, LI/NJ teams have holdbacks. 1 or 2 per team. WSYL rosters must include kids that have played all season.. new rule this year. A team can’t add kids or suntracy their for the tournament. Please don’t try to hide that Md teams are not nunning out kids that are older. It’s an accepted fact. Ex: 2023 Crabs has no less than 14 kids that were 13+ last season. If Maryland teams want to compete, the door is open. They just need to run their 2924 teams in the tourney, and let’s be realistic, it would be s massacre

My question why holdback the kids why not do a post grad year after high school before college . The kid will know more of what they want and you still get a older kid going into college with some college credits ...

Hmm Looks like recruiting and Holdback rules being called into question at MIAA schools for football. Some MIAA lacrosse schools should hurry up and cover their tracks before the St.Frances and Biff Poggi issues call into question MIAA lacrosse recruiting and hold back rules......

Easy answer is...You get zero advantage paying at your age during their youth or HS and then doing a PG. Do a prefirst or reclass and enjoy an advantage in youth and HS

I dont think I have met many coaches that have children in MIAA schools that werent held back. They know the drill. Hard to compete for a starting position when you are younger than the other boys

That is crazy stuff there. The St Frances Football team has around 40 scholarships paid in full by one guy, Biff Poggi. They are destroying any and all MIAA football teams including McDonogh and Biffs old team Gilman.

. Obviously St Frances has less academics standards than Gilman did and can recruit from a bigger pool, but Gilman had some dominate teams years ago with Biff and no one quit playing Gilman.

The recruiting and holdbacks will be interesting if any revisions come from this. I doubt anything will be done as lacrosse will be effected in some way. Best approach is the way MIAA is handling it now, its a safety issue.

who is the stunad? did you proof read your lame reply before you hit the send button- kinda admitting other states have them just not as many-not sure who really believes that- you also state the roster change for this year- not previous years which is what most of this topic is about-why do you think anyone is hiding anything - the rules for MD clubs allows for it and until that changes you will have to deal with it-deal with it by posting anonymous rants on this site-because MD holdback teams whip other states holdback teams-Md teams certainly do not need to travel any where out of the state to play anyone-they all come here to play us! Especially 1 tournament that changes the rules every single year! Don't worry , we will see and most likely hear your crying on the sidelines this year at one of the great MD tournaments-you and your team with 1 or 2 holdbacks- the door is always wide open -especially for the cheater who calls out the cheater who is beating him at the game!

classic hater!
Every single team in the elite division and AA team in the country has holdbacks- please post your kids team right under the 3 you know nothing about -

Not sure about every team. 91 Bandits? I'm not sure they have anyone over 13 on their team. Not sure they could be the '22 Annapolis Hawks who are all two years older but they can beat any '23 MD team who are a year older.

They lost to Crabs 2023 last year

They would also have trouble with the 23 Hawks right now. They are greatly improved over last year.

Good news for the majority of the lax community!
It appears USL is making strides to eliminate the holdback problem and will be mandating ALL youth and club lacrosse programs that use it's insurance to organize by birth year, not school grade.
The directive will be phased in and programs must transition by 2023.

Fake news

link?

3Step involved, they will be able to control all their events. Rising JR & SR (High School) will be based on grade for recruiting all others birth years. So some kids will play as rising JR multiple times

Not fake news.
Priority #1 of USL next year.
The clubs and recs who start planning now will be the ones that thrive.
Exciting to hear. It will be tough next year, but good for the game, overall.

This. Not just 3step involved. There are others.
No link yet.
Lots to figure out still, but this is indeed the plan.

There will be plenty of tournament options outside of USL.

Well that’s interesting.

Get NLF on board and could work. Would benefit the NY clubs

All those private clubs in Baltimore that require your son to have a USL number to tryout will likely have to comply. Or pay much, much, more for insurance elsewhere.

Good call and good move by USL. Glad they are stepping up.

It will never happen. Should, but never will.

People do realize that before things went grade based there will still plenty of kids/teams "cheating" The team my son played on in the old aged based Mpll(?) had 5-6 who would be considered holdbacks today and that was besides the 5 older kids you were allowed to have by league rules. This was u9. He was a 3rd grader and we would see 5th graders from our school on opposing clubs

People will always cheat. The soccer system requires birth certificates to be uploaded to register.
USL can go that route.
OR USL can just continue to ask for birth date with registration. It's needed for the insurance requirements. If parents want to cheat, they can certainly provide the wrong birth date. But no insurance coverage if something happens.

So, simple answer is to require birth certificates for USL #s and require numbers for all to compete tournaments. I guess kind of like World Series and nationals?

Well this thread just put 28 out of business. That’s all they talk about

Does it upset you Dads who held their son back to play against younger children since they couldnt compete against children their own age?

Many youth football leagues require state issued (from the MVA) ID cards for all players. They are on the sideline for every game and checked by opposing coaches before every game.

How wholesome.

Holding a kid back in school because he's "immature" so he can be up to two years older than the competition.

How wholesome.

Play sports on age. School is based other other criteria.

will have minimal impact. Will impact tourneys more than clubs. All this means is fewer tourneys will use USL insurance. (which few tourneys outside of MD/VA/PA use anyway.

Not at all. If you can’t make in 27 it’s really easy just re class as 28.

Lol at least he is honest.

All the holdbacks are the first to commit. So it works.

Stop crying about the holdbacks. My son is a 2022 D1 commit undersized and on age. He can play and is very good. People complaining about holdbacks are only making excuses for their kids that are not very good. And btw most of that top 2022 kids played up for years until high school only made them better.

Such as sad thing to say . My kid couldn’t make it so I held him back to look better for college

Played up until they played down (re classed)

What a joke. Played up for years,,,Now that is funny. holdbacks/reclass/prefirst all play down and have for many years now. Its the Baltimore Private School Way.

The best is when a holdback or prefirst plays his age ( which is rare) and the parent proudly boasts he is playing up, LOL .. Of course all the on age players are donig what , playing down ?? LOL

The holdbacks are the first to commit…a year or two later than they should have.

Just saw a social media post about a former CHC player who was written up in IL as part of their Midnight Madness coverage. If I'm not mistaken, the kid is a two-time holdback and now a 2023.

Wouldn't surprise me. There are rare cases where this is a good idea, but so many people are doing it now from Long Island because it works. Have to keep up with the Maryland men.

Only way for CHC players to get that much coverage. Flashback to Class of 2020.

You are mistaken. He was ‘22. Not the mythical double holdback.

There is only the occasional mythical double holdback in MIAA, But you do see them every once in awhile. The more common single holdback is rampant .

Most double holdbacks show up as PG at the many PG schools up north. There the many mystical double holdback PG competes with the single holdback.

They end up at Img, hill and the other pgs

Well yeah, they had an extra year to think about it.

What is the birthdate? That’s the determining factor.

For 2023
Born Before 9/1/04 = holdback
Born before 9/1/03 = Double holdback

It’s pretty straightforward.

Crickets

Glad to hear this is being addressed. It’s really a competition and safety issue.
This is exactly what the sport needs.
Thank you USL for finally listening!

🙄

Sorry. He was listed as a 2021 at the 2016 Brine National Classic.

https://toplaxrecruits.com/maryland...-youth-players-advance-brine-nlclacrosse

So was the alleged double holdback in question born before or after 9/1/03?

this is not correct at all. my son goes to public school and has many friends in his grade born from june to august who i know are not holdbacks. now, i have no idea if the parents did something pre 2nd grade (the year we moved to the town) but I am pretty sure that they were not thinking about holding back little johnny for a lax advantage in high school.

Yeah, those many friends are holdbacks. They may have been held back when they were young and for non-lax reasons, but they are potentially 12+ months older than kids they’re playing against based on grad year.

I’m not passing moral judgment on it - my son has an early fall bday so by random chance I never had to deal with this - but kids who were born in June but are in school with mostly kids born after 9/1 the same year or after are the definition of holdbacks.

The date is 9/1. Everyone knows it no matter how they try to spin it.

LOL, you don’t think the crazy lax families that have babies with mini lacrosse stick teething ring, would ever be thinking about their kid playing HS and College lacrosse and best path to do so?! Really??!! It’s mostly the parents dream … they are thinking about it as soon as little Johnny is born! Especially in states like MD! Lol, so don’t be so sure if it’s not being done pre 2nd grade! Lol

How would the world change if it was 8/1 or 10/1? The bottom line is that it's arbitrary and everyone should just chill out.

Can you holdback apologist at least get it right occasionally. Prefirst is a holdback no matter how you spin it or call them. The reasons do not matter, frankly any parent should do what they think is right for their childs education.

According to you and others like you, If I decided to let little jonny start school when he was 10, he technically wouldn't be a holdback when he played lacrosse with his grade. Of course he would 4-5 years older than the rest. LOL

And just imagine how easy it is when you just go birth year like soccer...AND EVERY OTHER YOUTH SPORT IN AMERICA!

Of course it is. Especially now with the explosion of holdbacks. Prefirst has a large class in most MIAA schools that offer K-12.

Please keep that quiet. Doesnt go well with many youth players parents from MIAA schools. Character Education is what they are about.

Of course they do!

You should use birth year, the entire year.
Jan 1 - December 31. So if you are born anytime in 2005 you are a 2024, etc.

That's not how it works. My son who was born spring 2005 is a 2023. He did not start school early, he is not playing up, he is on grade for his age and currently a junior in high school. Class of 2023 across the country is considered to be dob 9/1/2004 - 8/31/2005, give or take depending on exact cutoff for your state's public schools. Private schools move the goal posts to maintain a competitive edge. First it was having younger kids in the class (i.e. summer birthdays, especially boys) do a pre-K or pre-first year. Then affluent public school parents caught on and started doing the same thing, so private schools start holding back the spring and summer birthdays, and on it goes. Some of these kids then redshirt again before high school or by doing a PG year. To each his own, but parents should quit trying to normalize it to make themselves feel better. Most people understand the situation with kids who barely make the cutoff waiting a way to start K or 1st, but it's gone way beyond that. Sometimes kids do have opportunities to attend boarding school or do a gap year where redshirting makes sense, so not really fair to bash them all equally, but it is amazing seeing how much older many top rated lax players are than my own 2023.

Thank you for very clearly spelling that out for everyone! Private schools started all this by trying to gain an edge for their students. So true! It’s become a hot mess and it’s giving wealthy kids unfair advantages in the sport. It Should be addressed by the sport. Especially, as they say they are working to make it a more inclusive sport for all? It’s becoming more elitist everyday the way it is now.

"Should"

Birth year is easiest and is how many sports do it - including box in most cases.

The downside is that kids won't always get to play with their classmates.

Unfortunately Privates have been doing this for years. The only difference now then years ago, Lacrosse was age at youth and even by age for clubs. The Crabs years ago ( less than 10 years) had U15 and U13. Really good on age teams. No one really cared since youth was by age and HS was by grade. Frankly no one besides privates understood what I was talking about years ago when it came to prefirst .

Now with Clubs going grade, privates have upped the anti like the poster says above. All on age parents are saying WT?, how can this be fair at youth. And they are right.

Confirmed before 9/1/03.

Have no idea, but if he was born before that, he is one overage player for his grade. Summer 03 kids are in college now. WOW

I have no issue with all kids born in 2005 play together, those born in 2006 play together, etc. Other sports do it and you're right, it's simpler. It does mean kids don't always play with their classmates, which I think parents care about more than their kids. It does not make a kid like mine a 2024, however, unless he is held back. Supposedly college coaches just can't manage if there are a mixture of grad years on a team...which is an excuse because they seemed to figure it out just fine for the 2022s still "playing up" with their 2021 team, for example.

That's how it was when my oldest played - U13 and U15. He was younger for his age and had some private school kids on his team born within a month of him but a grade below. Club required they play with their age back then. Couple of the kids "playing up" then took a PG year after high school. My oldest is about to get his degree and they are now 21 year old sophomores in college. They were able to decommit and trade up to better lax programs, so I guess it paid off. The best of the best stand out even against older kids, but other players get pushed out if they don't reclass. Won't change until college coaches stop rewarding it.

High school age “re-classing” and PG years, Is not going to change. It DOES get rewarded with more opportunities to play in college. However, it would be nice at the youth level, in the kids developing years if they were giving an even playing field. Younger kids are being pushed out by older kids on their youth teams/clubs. It Seems to be getting more and more prevalent and accepted. Need to change this to age based at the youth ages.

There is a 20 year old nfl player maybe your genes aren’t that great brotha

Did he go/finish college “brotha”? My genes say get yourself a good college education and that will serve you well in life! No matter when you graduate college 21. 22 , 23 and so on. A college degree is a college degree. No matter what age you achieve it!

USL is addressing this. Expect the change in the next 2 years. All youth events will be phased into birth year.

If aged based won’t the kid born in January have a huge advantage over the kid born in Dec? The claim that soccer has ir right does not have a girl or boy playing on an elite soccer club team!!

Lacrosse is an elitist sport! US Lacrosse does nothing to grow the sport and will not rectify this situation because they have no control.

Can someone answer this? Why are you required to have a US Lacrosse membership? I don’t want three of their useless magazines.

One of the reasons for your US Lacrosse membership is insurance purposes, to cover their sanctioned events in case of player injuries. Any injury that happens at one of their events is covered for two years under your US
lacrosse membership, all costs not covered by your regular health insurance.

They offer supplemental insurance. They also offer insurance to tournaments and youth programs. These programs are very profitable, a lot of breakage.
https://www.usalacrosse.com/usa-lacrosse-insurance-program

Dont you like the totally woke useless USL Mag. Used to be about the sport, now it must have its social issues of the day enlightening us.

Yes. The February kids have an advantage over the October kids.

But an 8 mos difference is better than the 18+ mos difference that can occur in lacrosse.

Wait until he is 9th grade. 18 months is nothing.

Are you trying to rationalize or build on the age discrepancy further? I can’t tell.

It very well may happen in hs.

It 100% SHOULDN'T be happening in youth lacrosse.

holdbacks negatively impact competition, growth, safety, and access. It's bad for the growth of the game. Period.

Good for the individual but bad for the group. Been covered so many times before on the forums. Would be great if there was a standard date set by a governing body and all abided by it. 8/1 or 9/1 of every year would be my choice to line up with the school year but whatever date would be fine. High school and college multi year competition is a red herring. What matters is development time before high school and there is an obvious advantage to be older during that time period.

Life isnt fair just get over it. I love watching my on age son run by these kids. It's funny because if you didnt know the kid was a holdback you'd be complaining that hes just better than your kid

Time to Make it fair In the developing years of youth lacrosse! Period.

Or group kids by 2 birth years. Like they used to do back in rec.
One year you're the old kid, the next year you're the young kid.
Kids have to come and go through the age group. Teams cant stick together. New coaches/teams each year. Cut down on the bs.

That, sir, is the most common sense idea put forward so far. And youth lax is no place for common sense.

Stop trying to change the game. US lacrosse has already ruined it enough. No more hitting, requiring certain pads to be worn and requiring everyone to pay $ for a useless membership.

The game was a great sport before.

Have you seen the garbage they are doing to change the game to 6 vs 6. stunads … limited the numbers does not grow the sport . Thank goodness Stenerson is gone!

Says the double holdback parent! Lol

It also helps kids develop/grow. Learn to be a team leader or follower, depending on the year. HS coaches win.

He was a total holdback apologist.

Seriously, just talk about the sport, why do we have to add the wine stuff into it? That’s always the cover and usually the content.

Wine Stuff ? Had a few ?

Yes, we must demonstrate to our little ones the importance of mediocrity and victim hood in our society today. Therefore, in the spirit of equality and fairness we should also institute a weight-class rule along with a height requirement stipulation so no child or PARENT feels slighted or has their feelings hurt.

Always wonder if saying things that are meaningless and off target make you holdback parents feel better knowing your son cant compete with children his own age.

Nah, self aware, they are not.

Ewwwe, someone taking this a bit personal! Probably a double holdback parent!!!! 😃

Reread all of this and realize how silly it is. Your son will grow, and he will survive. Use it as a teaching moment. Trust me, i have been through it. Keep him focused on things that he can control and let him know that his day will come...if it is supposed to, and if he continues to practice.

This is life, and surely you know by now that it isn't fair. US Lax is not going to fix this life lesson for you.

No, the definition of mediocrity is an unathletic one-sport kid holding back in school so he can play down in age. Congrats on him finally finding success in a sport.
Because he couldn't cut it in sports that require him to play on-age.

I've found that pretty much all the holdbacks in our elementary and middle school-aged club program are kids who simply aren't very good or athletic.
You always see a kid, and think- "he looks big for his age," only to realize upon further review he's just a big-framed, less athletic, gangly kid who was held back a year.
He will be able to play maybe a ytear longer than normal, if he was on age. But he will wash out too.
It's a common theme.

Then I worded my post perfectly.

He is a holdback apologist. 18 months becomes less and less as children age. A fifth grader looking at 6th graders is a whole different ballgame than a 10th grader looking at a 11th grader. Common sense.

That holdback argument is just as good as, it will make your son better going against holdbacks, while they play down a year.

My son is a "holdback" in lacrosse and plays center midfield on his travel soccer team, point guard in AAU, and shortstop for the town's little league all-star team when he was a full year younger than everyone. He plays on grade in lacrosse with his friends and dominates that too. Some kids are athletes. Others were born to non-athletes who complain on anonymous message boards. Maybe get your kid to start studying for the LSAT.

“Full year younger” = playing with kids in the grade he should be in..holdback daddy logic.

Sneaky holdback parents.
No one cares what he did in first grade.
Notice the past tense- he USED to play those other sports, but as the athletes got better, he whittled down to soccer and lacrosse, where he can still play up.
Let me guess, he's probably gonna "focus on lacrosse" in high school. Maybe give up soccer for...cross country?

holdbacks are sanctioned cheating. Period end of story. US Lacrosse is worthless, and openly hypocritical to boot.

Calendar year is the only way to change the sport. US Lacrosse will never endorse it because it takes away from their donors.

But why even have a forum or post on this. Do you all really care that much? You win some, you lose some, you can order tee shirts online. College coaches get kids based on graduation year not age. That said, a college coach also knows when a kid has reclassed and if that is why they are better. In this house, we play the team in front of us and if we win we win if we lose we learn but we never make excuses. Bring the challenge cause my on age kid has more upside than your holdback kid and that will play out but I couldn’t care less when your kid was born. Lets play the game and see where the cards fall.

It’s about unfair advantages the holdback has in the developing years. Those advantages get them more opportunities to advance in Lacrosse in youth and in college. Colleges don’t care, they recruit top players … period. They are looking at these kids when they are sophomores and juniors . The 2 years extra playing they had is a big advantage then. They do get rewarded for doing it! With Scholarships and spots on top college teams. Period!

The high school line of discussion (to me is always moot). Who cares around high school - reclass to your hearts content.

The issue is youth- where 8 months of development is a tremendous advantage.

The wait til high school crowd are either in denial or don’t understand how puberty works for children.

8 months is nothing at the 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th grade level. Get a grip. There are young offensive freshmen in the MIAA dealing with monster senior defenders.

Or maybe they’re just sick and tired of beating a dead horse.

Give me a number of young offensive freshman in the entire MIAA last year.

Keep defending the holdback scenario. Of course you want people to stop talking about it, as it’s no big deal once kids get to high school. So, all you holdback
Parents just admit the unfair advantages of the holdback situation, and say you think it should change at the youth level. I don’t think most hold backs stayed back due to academics. So stop defending the holdback scenario as no big deal!

My kid is a smaller to mid size on age 7th grader. I just don't get all the crying about this one. It all evens out when it matters, what does the unfair advantage translate in to? More playing time for a year or so, maybe?! Means nothing in the grand scheme.

look worry about your kid. Do what you think is best for your kid, if I hold back my kid for 2 years, thats my business, and my $$ for school, it has no impact on you. If you think that my kid is athletically benefitting for being older, then maybe, if it matters that much to you, you should hold your kid back.
in teh end, take care of your kid, do what YOU think is best for THEM, and stop whinning, because you made a decision knowing the factors that were and still are out there..

Do you explain to your kid that he is just slower academically then normal kids his age or just not as good at sports as the kids his age? How does that work? And when he loses to my kid, do you make other excuses or ask if he wants to hold back until he can be good enough?

Not a dad of a holdback kid. But Really? Putting down a parent decision to hold back a kid due to academic development? You think that’s an easy choice for a parent?

No! I think people not talking about parents doing it for academic reasons, I think questioning doing it for athletics? But, if it’s allowed and it helps. Can’t blame the parents. Blame the sport for allowing it in youth ages. As far as academics go, I don’t think anyone judging that?

I didn’t post it, but thought it was funny. If you hold your kid back just own it. Most of you don’t.

I held my kid back two years but "WE" got an offer from VMI and NJIT. My son could have gotten into both schools two years ago, but it was worth it!

Spoken like a true private school parent. You could care less what it is doing to youth sports or even youth lacrosse in general as long as you get yours. Thats right, If you do it, dont complain, just hold back our own sons to get the same advantage over other children that you get. Yep, thats the right attitude. Lacrosse to many is a fringe sport for the somewhat athletic private school 5-10 white guy. Not changing much with that attitude.

My son is not holdback genius, but he would certainly question why he was no longer in the same class as his friends at school and why he is repeating the same curriculum with lil guys. I know people like to avoid that part of the equation. But the conversation has to happen. So what do you tell them? Do you applaud there Academic success for being able to succeed at the same grade twice. Do you put the honor roll sticker next to the club lax sticker? Or is that part ignored for the Glory of the Lax Gods.

Here is your answer and I am sure you will have another snarky response, but what the heck.

For whatever reason, when they do reclass, it usually happens at the same time as switching to a private school with mostly a new set of friends, some of which are in the exact same reclass circumstance that their new and old friends may or may not know about or care about. So any embarrassment potentially incurred is not nearly what you make it seem.

I am sure the convo with the kid is a mix of physical and academic reasoning that is likely supported by some medical and educational specialists that add well reasoned cases to validate the decision. I am sure everyone is onboard and they then move on.

The reality of it all is that hopefully, and I’d bet most often, the reasons are well intended to help that kid develop into a healthy, confident, and one day independent young person. This despite what you may believe or how it may put your kid on an uneven “age” playing field.

And no, I don’t have a reclass or holdback kid. But certainly do believe that if someone does, they have a good reason aside from sport. So stop trashing them as I am sure they made the decision with heavy thought, eyes wide open, and all onboard.

holdback parents want it both ways.
They held back their kid for “academic issues.” But they are “not academically challenged.”

😂

Which is it?

All parents should want kids to play by birth year. There is NOTHING to lose for moving back to birth year.

THE GAME GETS SAFER AND MORE COMPETITIVE.

If the holdback kids are good enough, they will dominate against kids their own age. And they will be allowed to “play up” if they want to be challenged.

Age based just means no more potential 2 year age gaps allowed and safety concerns.

There is NO good reason to play grade based.

I know, it's so dangerous in the 6th grade.

It’s done for one reason and we all know what it is.

Sounds like many of you should go and play soccer if you're scared of little Johnny get hurt

Agreed. Do you thinks Crabs would ever it it this way?

I wonder how many of the kids bust out in tears and tell the parents how embarrassing this is going to be? My son would be mortified. He would think he was a slow poke physically and mentally.

Exactly, to give my kid a leg up in life over yours!

You failed your kid because you haven’t used the “rules” to his advantage.

Heck, I just decided to reclass my kid again to guarantee my kid takes your kid’s high school and college roster spots, and there is nothing you can to do about it. 🥲

That’s right, stink it up. While I laugh at how slow you are, my kid is getting all the accolades (academic and athletic) and will get a full ride scholarship to a top school.

Then, my kid is going to land the best job on Wall Street while your kid will be saying that life is just not fair, and the cycle continues in your family tree.

You’re failing your kid and you are failing at life. I am the father figure you never had and this is your wake up call.

It’s time for you to break the failure cycle in your family tree. Reclass your kid today and reap all life’s rewards or your kid will suffer your same fate!

I wonder how many of the kids bust out in tears and tell the parents how embarrassing this is going to be? My son would be mortified. He would think he was a slow poke physically and mentally.[/quote]


It's a really simple conversation and requires no words spoken at all. Just have three pictures, one of a crabs helmet, one of Pat Spencer and one of the Tewaaraton.

It's a really simple conversation and requires no words spoken at all. Just have three pictures, one of a crabs helmet, one of Pat Spencer and one of the Tewaaraton.[/quote]

It has to be a simple conversation. Probably best to use pictures since they have to repeat a middle school grade twice! Big push in the special needs community for picture based learning. We applaud you for slowing it down for Jr

We do. Unlike Johnny holdback, our on-age kids DO play soccer TOO...in addition to lacrosse, and wrestle.

Because they are REAL athletes, not single-sport hold-backs playing against younger kids.

The hold back parents have no clue why their sons eventually get cut from JV lax as Sophs.

Could not have said it better.... As long as the rules allow you to do it, then why not. A14 year old in 6th grade is graduating in 2028, so they get to play 2028 lacrosse and U15 Soccer.... so take jonny to soccer to play the held back 4th grader who is 12. Maybe they will think he is a soccer stud... Better yet take him to play badminton he should be safer there.

This under the premise that my kid can’t compete on age. Wrong fool, you are clueless.

My kid is best on age and dominates on grade. Your kid is losing playing time to my kid. And by the way, your kid dropped in academic class ranking to my kid too.

Don’t convince yourself you’re holier than thou! Reclass immediately, before it’s too late. Don’t fail your kid as you have failed in life. Break your family tree cycle of complaining and go reap life’s rewards with a leg up.

Your kid may succeed now in MS, but his career arc is generally much shorter as a holdback.

Those of us who coach hs and college see it all the time. We all know what happens when reclassed kids go from competing in MS against kids who haven't hit their growth spurt yet, to playing against older kids for the first time in HS.

The vast majority struggle, they get benched, and they get cut. Why do you think some of the private hs have so many lax washouts in their SO/JR year? It's not just the numbers game. It's a realization by kids that they cant compete or dominate any more so they disappear and wash out.

You sound like a drug addict trying to convince the sober to go on drugs.

My kid doesn’t need to reclass, he beats your little Johnny even while younger.

The day you realize your kid has run out of talent (and genetics) and has to reclass must be sobering.

Hey Johny
What's up Dad
Umm, You're going to be going to the same grade next year and not with your friends.
But dad why. I want to stay with my friends and school and everything I know. Why. I don't want to.
Because you're not as good at lacrosse as mom and I need you to be to impress our friends

I often do wonder how that conversation goes. Feel bad for these kids who are told in middle school they are being held back, even worse for the ones that remain in the same school and are held back. Those parents are the worst, the ones whose kids don’t agree with the decision.

Hey Dad
What's up Johnny
Thank you for being successful so you could send me to private school and I can not only make new friends but also keep my local friends because they don't care that I am a hold back.
No problem son
Also, I just got into an (Fill in blank Ivy league or top 25 academic school regardless if D1 or DIII) because of lacrosse whereas before I would not have gotten into the school.
Wow that's great son but I am sure when you are applying for a job and are older people will say you are a holdback.
No dad, that will never happen but one day there might be be jealous parents commenting in a message forum that will have zero impact on my life after I receive my amazing education and play lacrosse in college.
Father and son laughing together

You are not dealing with a bunch of slowpoke holdbacks here! That might work for you and Mrs slowpoke holdback mom to help sleep at night. Go back to 7th grade a few more years like your kid and try again.

Everyone does what they think is best for their own kid. Period. If it bothers someone else, don’t sweat it. Holding back had pros and cons and everyone knows that. Just do what you think is your son’s best interest and try to focus on academics over sports.

It has to be a simple conversation. Probably best to use pictures since they have to repeat a middle school grade twice! Big push in the special needs community for picture based learning. We applaud you for slowing it down for Jr[/quote]
Can you say one off?

holdbacks are the norm now for lacrosse. This from the recent recruiting world.


2023 Recruit. March 2004 birthday but nowhere near the oldest Top 50 recruit. I wonder what is?? LOL ..

☝🏻

Or, he would love the private school he ends up going to! You ever see some of those places!? Like going to school at a country club! Pretty sweet! Oh yeah, and the education and sports pretty good too! Probably end up in a top college playing the sport he loves.

If you need to hold your special needs child back to go to private school, I wouldn't stretch too hard to pat yourself on the back. By that measure my son who is on age and in private school is just better then your kid. I didn't know private school was the barometer of success, but I guess kudos to us that didn't hold back. I would focus on where you and Mom failed him prior so he doesn't fall even further behind the kids he can't compete with on the field or in the classroom. Don't need to go all double hold back now for Slowey McPoke Child.

Dude let it go! Lax is finished to many kids playing now, no college money! Have them play another sport!

Huh… you took the bait. Dude my kid not in private school. Just making a point that the scenario of the private school holdback kid, being 10 kids in a classroom and staying back a year to play sports. The extra year of that type of education and the advantage of playing a sport for another year, definitely gives advantages into getting into a top college and chance at playing the sport. It’s a great opportunity and advantage, Just not everyone can afford to do that. Hence, making some sports considered elitist. Because the kids who can usually afford that scenario are from wealthy families. Let’s just make it an even playing field at the youth level and make it “on age” in the developing years. High school is high school and that’s a different story.

What a shocker that the wealthy privileged have advantages in life.

Not a shocker. But, it shouldn’t play a role so early in youth sports. USL could take the early advantage away. Make it not an advantage to do the holdback thing in the youth years. But wait… is it wealthy privilege people running it? And… Don’t care to see that advantage changed??

IMO, holdbacks are fine in HS. Its just so dangerous at the youth and especially the MS level. That's when half the kids hit their growth spurts and the other half doesn't. It stinks as a coach. One of my kids is an above sized 7th grade reclass, for true academic reasons, and broke the leg of a smaller assuming on-age kid driving around the crease. It wasn't intentional at all. He wasnt trying to hurt the kid, he was just trying to play position defense, the kid dove and he shoved him in the side, but his foot stuck and it broke his leg. Game was ultimately cancelled because they had to helicopter the kid to a hospital that was further away. My kid felt horrible. Was really shaken by it. These more serious injuries are a legit concern at the middle school level. But they arent getting reported because there is simply no reporting mechanism. I help coach 2 MS club teams and I've seen it much more often in the past 10 years than I ever saw when I played 30 years ago. Not a good trend.

This is by far my favorite thread on this site…”holdbacks” where the high and mighty purists of the age appropriate debate the morally bankrupt from the “reclassified”. I’ll fill you guys in on a little secret, this phenomenon is prevalent in many other sports, not just lax “Bro”. But I’ve never heard people itch and moan about it nearly as much as I do in this sport. I have 3 boys, all are 3 sport athletes so we see it everywhere, 2 of the 3 we held back in pre-K before we even knew what sports they’d play or even considered any advantage it would give them. Does that make me more or less of a laxer than a parent that holds a kid back in 5th or 6th grade? Either way it comes down to this, do it or don’t but know that no one cares about your ethics or justifications. Both arguments are not a good look and you most likely come off as a tremendous “wussy”

Doesn't make you more of a laxer, just means you have slow children. Most likely genetic. Good on you for attempting to end the cycle of mediocrity in your family by letting your kids have an extra year. You're one the parents who understand his kid can't succeed without it and needs help.

Explain what’s wrong with a holdback and why do you think some kids would be against it. Get to go to a beautiful campus with exceptional athletic facilities, get an excellent education that will enhance your opportunities for college. BTW no kid is embarrassed to be held back for a sport. To the kid it’s a real honor to be asked to be held back in order to go to an excellent school and play for an elite High School program.

Outstanding answer! My kids 2.3 GPA and 3rd line assignments most likely mean our kids will be linemates at Hoco junior college, cheers

What other youth sports in MD are grade based? Which leagues?

Almost all are age-based. Lacrosse is the outlier.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. This is getting sad. There are on age public high school kids at Ivey's now. Your son will catch up I promise. Special needs programs have come a long way.

“It’s an honor” kinda.

Never been through the hs process, eh?

Many kids don’t even know that they are being held back until they show up with their public school transcripts and totally average placement test results.

Then they learn the news in the admissions office.

Little Johnny holdback becomes a little less honored to be recruited as a 26, only to learn he’s not good enough either academically or athletically so they make him leave his class and friends and repeat and “mature” another year. Academically or socially. Whatever is easier to explain in social circles.

Parents then have to spin their excitement to get Johnny as excited to leave his friends and come to grips that he’s not as talented as they thought in elementary/middle school. See posts above.

Name a few youth sports besides lacrosse that let you play down in age??? Even all Howard County HOCO sports leagues are age based except ....drum roll, HOCO Lacrosse , LOL

Lacrosse is at an epidemic level with holdbacks. At one time it was mainly a private school secret and only effected other private school playing each other. Coaches of all MIAA schools held their sons back as did many parents for various reasons. Frankly no one cared as youth lacrosse was aged based and private holdbacks/prefirst played their age.

The only " wussy " is people like you who want their children to get an advantage other children dont get that are born on same day as your children, Actually pretty sad.

LOL. "" real honor to be asked to be held back "" . That has to go down as one of the better reasons for a holdback apologist parent .

Easy fix! Change the rules at the youth ages and the developing years of the athlete to age based! Give all the kids the same opportunity to develop “on age”. Where they go from there in HS…. Then so be it.

Yep, just make it the full 12 month calendar year and not a 9/1 cut off. If you are born in 2005, then your a 2024, etc.

It can be any random number as long as all use it...not select children who get to play down due to being held back.

My son is generally the smallest kid on the field at every lacrosse game. He plays "up" at the 2027 level since he started playing club lacrosse at 8 years old. He plays with the same core group of kids on a mixed 2027-2028 team at A and sometimes AA level. Half of our 2027 team is 2028's and I personally know we have never had a single holdback on our squad. When we show up to some of these tourneys it is sickening to see how common it has become to have a team chock full of kids that have been held back or are just blatantly playing down. I know some kids grow faster then others but you should not have a team full of kids who all belong in guiness book of world records for their age/size. I think it would be a HUGE SUCCESS to have a tourney (other then WSYL) where teams or individual players can come and finally play against kids their own age with some simple age verification like we do here in Pa. for every other sport. I think a great place to start would be a tourney similar to the PLL/APEX event where players would be placed based on date of birth instead of the "Maryland grade system".

Yes!!!! And change the rules at the youth age levels. To AGE BASED

holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!

Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

In tournaments, it's not even (always) holdbacks. One team from VA, Norfolk Collegiate (aka "757 select") enters into tournaments with wishy washy age/grade language on purpose. In fact the language for the upcoming Madlax tournament, "If your roster is a mix of more than 1 graduating year, register your team for the graduating year where *the majority of players are* "

In the case of 757 Select, that meant that last summer at a tourney, according to their parents on the sidelines, the 2027 team was primarily 2027s with some 2026s and 2025s mixed in (to make it worse, they played in a combined 2027-2028 bracket against 2028-29 teams). And if you think it's legit to have 14 year olds playing against 10 year olds, OK then. Those 14 year olds' parents were super proud of their championship lol. Way to beat the 5th graders!

Their 2026 team was primarily 2026s with some 2025s and 2024s!

Their 2028 team was primarily 2028s but almost half 2027s.

When I saw this fall's Madlax tourney liability waiver language, "Graduation age of the majority of your team" I screenshot it and sent it to some other dads for the LOLz and said, "Hey it's for those 757 guys!" Somebody texted back.........."Sure is......they registered for this tournament!" So in their case, they're out there LOOKING for opportunities to dodge graduation year requirements with their squads.

If you asked their coaches, I'm sure they would say, "we don't have holdbacks in southern VA, this is how we equalize the playing field against all the MD teams with holdbacks."

This is where the holdback situation is going if it's not addressed. CA and TX clubs, as they become a "market force" for the tournament economy, are not going to sit by and take it, flying up to MD and NJ to play kids consistently 1-2 years older than theirs.

Absolutely! It is time for US Lacrosse to step up!! Address the “holdback” situation and change the youth lacrosse rules to age based! It is getting totally out of control now. Everyone running with their own rules out there and you get 13 yr olds playing 10 yr. Olds! It’s totally Ridiculous!!! And, only getting worse!

Sure. Every kid that holds back is the next Cole Herbert. Just like every kid that swings a decent golf club at age 4 is the next Tiger Woods.

Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation and causation are often confused because the human mind likes to find patterns even when they DO NOT exist.

I've seen it in the league for the past decade+. There are way more holdback struggles and washouts than Cole Herberts.

It's a major reality check when these holdbacks go from competing against mostly younger kids in Middle School to mostly older kids in High School. They more often than not struggle and it happens in high school.

Great argument if you are talking about when there was only 1 or 2 holdbacks in MS going into HS playing against older kids. Reality is, soon it will be the majority of kids wanting to play at a higher level will be holdbacks. More HS kids will be holdbacks as well!! It’s getting out of control.

Developing years should be aged based and the cream will rise to the top in HS. Just make it a fair playing field in the developing youth years. Give the kids a chance to develop at the same ages. Plenty sports are age based at the youth level. It’s the right way to do it!

Cole Herbert would be fine playing up. But obviously, not every kid is Cole Herbert. Last year there were 41 freshmen lacrosse players at Calvert Hall and just 13 seniors. So what, approx 70% of the lacrosse players there wash out? And a lot of them are holdbacks.

Holding your kid back is fool's gold. It's a recipe for dominating in middle school and struggling in high school, when the built-in advantage is gone.

My oldest is still young (not a hold back), but weren't kids able to commit to colleges in 8th grade not too long ago? With that now pushed back to 11th grade, I would think that this should slowly reduce holdbacks, but maybe I am wrong.

CH has a huge varsity roster. Bigger than most colleges at 53 kids. Teams usually only play about 20-24 kids in competitive games. So most of those kids don't get much playing time.

At some point the kids who are just bigger or more coordinated in MS earlier wash out. Most of them hit their peak much earlier.

Aside from the holdback BS that US Lax really needs to fix....CHC kids should consider looking at other schools so they can actually get on the field and play so they can get better. There is lots of talent on the depth chart from 20-30 that could play/start elsewhere in MIAA. This has been going on for way too many years. Parents wake up!!!

You have to make an impression as a freshman, or it's tough to climb out of the hole.
I know of at least one kid who went to CH and got buried on the depth chart early due to the opinions of a F/Soph or JV coach.
His sophomore year he didnt make JV. He had to play F/S again. He transferred to a "bottom half" team his JR year and ended up being 2nd team All Metro in the Baltimore Sun.
Forget these places with a million kids. I'm sending my kids to where they have a better chance of playing.

Where are Calvert Hall's dorms? Several kids from CO and others from Michigan, TX, SC, VA, southern MD, Pittsburgh.

You will see that a many of the holdbacks from 2022 posing at 2023s at Duke and UNC and other top programs will be bench riders most of the time they are there. It helps to have dads in the game, but it wont get you playing time.

If they had a 2027 team with 14 year olds as you say playing 2028/29 teams - who was the 2028 team playing?

These are rather hefty accusations on this team that I’ve never heard of but I’m trying to follow.

The 757 2028 team was a mix of 2027s and 2028s......and they struggled with 2028 competition. The parents seemed pretty at home with the fact that they "always travel together" and it's "always been a multiple year team." The 2028 team (2028s and 2027s) had to play their 2027 (2027+2026+2025) team due to the joined 2027-2028 brackets and the 2028 parents seemed pretty sour over it .

The 2027 parents (this is July 2021) talked about some of their kids being 13 and 14 and "the end of middle school" etc.

It's really not a "club team" per se but a way to get the school's teams together to travel and get exposure, acc to a 2027 parent I talked to. And again, I get the fact that they BELIEVE at the A/B level, they are competing with massive numbers of MD holdbacks at the middle school level, which I don't think is the case (I don't think Zingos kids planning to play at Centennial are reclassing lol). So that's their justification.........find tournaments with weak language about grad year breakouts. It's the next logical step.

I would say somewhere between 40-60% of the best players in the MIAA the last decade were holdbacks. Almost all the stars in the 2020 class were.

Well that means 40-60% of the best players are on age then right?

Outstanding reply!

If you are holding back just to play lacrosse, you are a fool. Academics is another story. If going from a public school to a private school, you will need the extra year to catch up unless you are a very high achiever in the classroom. Look at all the rockstars from the class of 2018 and 2019, most of them are no longer. The holdback arbitrage is complete. Stopped growing, stopped caring, girlfriends, realizing that there is very little lacrosse life after college, etc. I say play up, if you can compete you will probably play in college. I know about the getting hurt issue, size matters, and if you are within the middle of the bell curve, I would let my son play. He also played football and which is more dangerous playing up in lacrosse or on grade in football?

Outstanding Reply?? Years ago the best players ,,,MIAA had less holdbacks ( 40-60%) , now there are more over (75%) ??

Now, the MIAA best players are either holdbacks or born in the Sept-Dec on age Range...after that is a wasteland unless you are a holdback.

Duke had birthdays on their roster a few years ago...One kid was on age for his college class born after Jan...ONE ..

Agree with those frustrated with the amount of “older” kids playing “down” at these younger ages/grades… but I guess that’s the new normal. Regarding college rosters, a lot of PGs in that group, repeating senior year at a prep school is a lot different than repeating 8th grade, IMO.

And a word of caution for all those thinking the birth year model is the way to go.
Last I checked a kid born in January is a year older than a kid born in December of the same year. And I sure as heck don’t want to see college lax turn into what college hockey looks like (youth hockey is birth year)!

Pretty dense post here. No one cares about January vs. December or an 11 month difference in general. The issue is with the 18-24 month difference that we now see at the youth level.

You don’t fool us, holdback parent/apologist.

Birth year is 10x better than grade. Grade can be whatever you want. Birth year is one year different. Max.

My kids both attend MIAA schools and........you can blame it on covid if you want but..........the kids coming in from (AACO and BCoPS) public school this year are a disaster, behavior wise and academically. 2019 did not seem as bad and Fall 2020 was impossible to track. They will get better as they understand what the expectations are (at least the expectations for the non-standouts, let's be realistic that there are 2+ sets of rules). We have seen one girl and one boy already leave school, both going back to public school. Both were athletes with "expectations."

I don't want to go on record defending holdbacks, but the average lax kid cannot seamlessly bounce from Annapolis MS to St. Mary's, from MoCo PS to Georgetown Prep, or from Balt City / County schools to Gilman, LB etc. Those kids need (and deserve) a fair amount of support to make the transition. That could mean picking a school with a lot of academic support for athletes (BL, McD), providing your kid a ton of extra resources in 9th grade, or............sigh............holding them back.

There's a reason why the prep school alumni generally say that college was easier than HS........it's because HS is made as difficult as possible.

Ha! Says the parent of the kid with a January birth date, hence young for his grade but would be just perfect for a birth year based system! Yup, no one cares about 11 or 12 months except for the December birth day kids in a birth year system. Just like no one cares about holdbacks except for the over competitive mom or dad who's little johnny is getting his butt kicked and they think he would be the next Brennan O'Neill but all these darn hold backs are making him look bad. And most likely the kids you think are 18-24 months older, are probably only 12 months older. FYI, my kids are not holdbacks and are age appropriate for their grade. They play against teams with holdbacks, sometimes lose against them and will hopefully be better lacrosse players because of it. "We" have aspirations of them playing college lacrosse and may even hold them back in the future (i.e. later high school years, PG year) if it makes sense (they're actually good enough to play in college and holding them back gives them the opportunity to play at their school of choice and is financially achievable, etc.). But for now, I see them playing against holdbacks as a positive.

No one cares (as much) about the high school holdbacks. Or even ones that do it for real academic concerns. But doing it because "private school is hard" is a cop out. It's the parents that hold their kids back in middle school and earlier that are the pathetic losers.

If you want them to play college lacrosse, start saving gif the extra school year now! You will be holding them back !

USL is making waves.
Hearing the birth year push is going through for youth and MS lacrosse. They won’t touch hs events, but the safety issue is resonating with the lax community. Glad to hear.

To late. Top Clubs want the advantage MIAA holdbacks give them in this area.

Get over yourself. Find me one person who can say that BL is more challenging than a Baltimore Co public school AP curriculum. I’ll wait. Lol.

Lol exactly. The curriculum at many of these private schools are NOT more academically challenging that your standard public AP classes.

Got it, so the very highest public school curriculum is the same as the average at a private school.

Good to know.

Yeah like private school is gonna give your kid a better chance when applying for a job! The employer just knows you babied him!

j

^^^^ How to say "I already lost this argument" without saying "I already lost this argument." Who said anything - at all about "AP curriculum" least of all in the BOTC holdbacks Forum. How many County students are fully enrolled (>50% course load) in the "AP Curriculum" every semester? 5%? 7%?

Wonder why you didn't decide to go after Loyola's AP course load instead of BL's.

Hit me with those "Eastern Tech AP > Loyola AP" facts! (we all know Carver is a reservoir of disappointment, even compared to Eastern)

The point being made was that the MIAA schools have resources to support average and below average students in a way that BCPS is not going to , in school trailers with 36 kids per class and kids fighting in the hallways every day.

As the parent of a high school senior who transitioned from public middle school to private high school this is very true. First year grades reflect it too. Had a uCum GPA end of freshmen year of 3.03 and ended junior year w a uCum of 3.77. Freshman year was a huge transition and has taken 3 years to adjust the GPA as well. Lesson learned. Best decision we ever made though!

Going through this now.
Kid was an honors straight A public kid through elementary and middle school.
Now at a Private Catholic high school. He worked his tail off and still missed second honors by .01%.
Definitely the best decision he’s ever made.
Finally challenged academically and athletically.

100% accurate. The basic curriculum at most of these private schools is on par with the AP curriculum at public schools.

What about the AP curriculum at the private schools?

My son had *never* had a B. School prep just had not been an issue. Were led by public school admins to believe he was uniquely smart etc etc

Q1 MIAA freshman: 3 Bs.

Most MIAA schools with the exception of CHC follow a harder grading scale
92-100 A
85-91 B
78-84 C

AP classes in public school are the equivalent of regular classes in private schools.
The Honors and AP courses at private school are far beyond anything offered at public schools. And it's not even close.
My kid also NEVER got a B in public school. Our fridge was covered in those notIntelligent honors magnets.
Now at a local private MIAA school, he's working harder than ever and is a B student.
Colleges know this.
And I see it with our company's own recruiters. They know that private school students = deeper, critical thinkers.

^^^^^Facts^^^^^

The curriculum is more rigorous at schools that have to sell parents (and students) on why they should spend $30k a year.

College counselor workloads are different as well. Public school college counselors have hundreds of students in their caseload. Private school counselors have far less, which means more attention, deeper relationships with college admissions folks, etc.

YGWYPF.

If it makes you feel better for your 30k a year, tell yourself YGWYPF. As far as being a better critical thinker bc you go to private school?! Hard to be a good critical thinker in a homogenous pool of similar minded people.
And for the record, the AP curriculum is the same at every school. It’s to prepare for the AP exam, which is the same regardless of public or private school. Get your facts straight. And finally, before you go bashing Eastern Tech or Carver, look at where their graduates go to college. Sorry if it hurts when you go to write that tuition check.

You’re correct my kid has never had to critically think his way out of an active shooter situation.

AP is AP - this is for any school that offers courses. This curriculum is created by the colloge board, not the private schools: https://aphighered.collegeboard.org/about-ap/course-exam-development. The real test of an AP course is the actual AP pass rate.

Close. 1) pass rate. 2) rate of students who even took the exam. In the case of public schools vs private schools both these #s are very school by school, making a generalization is childish. Loyola/St Marys/GP/Gilman/St Pauls and plain old Centennial HS are closer than many here would like. That's because - shocker - the number one driver of educational attainment is the parents' educational attainment.

But don't pretend you're getting the same education or AP exposure at some public HS in Harford County that you would at Severn School or Gilman. C'mon now.

Critical Thinking is based on using real data to form opinions. Average SAT and ACT Scores from Niche.com

Eastern Technical High School

1220
28

George Carver

1210
29

Gilman

1370
30

McDonogh

1320
31

St. Pauls

1270
29

Boy's Latin

1240
27

Loyola Blakefield

1290
29

Calvert Hall

1240
27

The kids at private school are better, more critical thinkers because the teachers actually require it of their students. My kid transitioned from public MS to private HS and there's no comparison on the difficulty and expectations. The standard is a thousand times higher at Loyola than it was at Dumbarton.

Paying $120k for around 100 points higher on SAT is totally worth it. Great point.
On another note, don’t forget to look at how many AP courses are offered at private vs public.
Regarding the post above about an active shooter, your naïveté is disturbing. Mass shootings can happen anywhere. All the money in the world can’t protect you from someone’s ill intent.

A lot of people very (overly) invested in this debate. In Maryland, the truth is that you spend $700K+ on a home in the best public school districts, or you spend the money on tuition, to get the benefits of those scores for the "average kid." Or you spend less, and you get this:

Dundalk HS: 990 SAT / 20 ACT

Annapolis HS: 1160 / 26

Calvert HS: 1150 / 26

Baltimore Poly: 1170 / 26

Balt City Overall: 920 / 18 (and doesn't matter because UMD system doesn't accept their diplomas as evidence of college readiness)

Isn’t there a lacrosse message board? If so how many have legit lax teams? Maybe Severna Park? Maybe.

Mt Hebron 1290 SAT but public schools creams only those who take the test. I assume almost 100%of privates take the test

Severna Park is for the kids who couldnt get into Spalding, Severn or St Marys

Correct.
The public schools that are high have low overall test participation rates.
Public schools do NOT require every kid to take the test. So kids who are not good academically do not have to take the SATs.
Private schools require ALL of their students to take the college admission tests.
So Calvert Hall's "low 1240 average includes EVERYONE on campus, even the "dense jocks."

I think the school is called MT Heroin.....Get it right buddy

Oh yea!! Definitly Mt. Heroin. There are more than a few crispy critters there....

I can tell you're the same guy who was theorizing about McDonough & Gilman grads "job applications" like they are lining up at Starbucks or Jiffy Lube. I'm sure if they did apply for those jobs, yeah, people would think it was weird, and they might not get hired to sweep floors or warm up muffins for $9/hour. Good point.

If someone sends their kids to private for the 100 points (which, as others have mentioned, is really about 300 points), they are stunads. This is true. But this is reason #23 for most parents. Not #1.

And I agree, mass shootings can happen anywhere. So why don't they happen at private schools? Ever? If 15% of kids go to private schools, why are 0% of school shootings there?

Looking at that.. I would say that Gilman and McD give an above average education compared to those two publics, but the rest, while somewhat better aren't that much better for 16 to 35 thousand dollars a year compared to next to nothing.

But private isnt only about who has the better SAT. There is bragging rights when you meet someone.. The First three questions from any parent I meet from a private school, Where do you live, What do you do and what school does your child go to.. That private school makes up for inadequate answers to first two.

Since this is the holdback thread just send your kid to private where it’s encouraged.

Public kids call it “failing” and it’s frowned upon.

I'm a private school dad and I approve this message.

^ This

That sums up the whole debate about holdbacks in a nutshell as they say. And so True.

Mic drop at its finest.

holdbacks should be illegal in middle school while kids are developing and there are already large size mismatches.

No problem with them in high school.

Wow! They even have a ‘crybaby’ thread here for the all the white-wimpy-keyboard-warrior-dads. LoL

Oak double hold back dad! Welcome ….

Remember holding back is not about sports so don't bring the term whimp in to it. Words like slow in school, behind other kids in the classroom, developmentally disabled. But I don't know about whimp.

My kids club team is arguably the best team for his grad year in the country, and has been more often than not, since the team originated 9 years ago. They have never had a holdback. The team (parents and kids) are very close and the majority of the kids have been on the team since the beginning. Not a national team. No ringers, ever. No new kids at all in a few years. And not one boarding school kid, ever. The last 9 years, I’ve been on BOTC, people have always said that their success can’t possibly last. They can’t keep winning at the highest level. The holdback teams will dominate them. “It’s going to be ugly!” But here we are, and the club years are wrapping up, and this same team is still on top (not arguable based on their list of accomplishments). Based on the success of this team, it’s obvious that the boarding school/holdback model is not the only successful model for developing top club teams and talent, which I’m sure is very much to the contrary of what most people believe that read this post. Just throwing this out there as a possible topic for conversation, since the culture in elite lacrosse dictates the boarding school/holdback path, thereby perpetuating LACROSSE’s well earned and long standing reputation as “the sport of the privileged”. No trolls please. All of this information is 100% accurate.

Great, up until now! What age group are they ? If we are talking younger, only matter of time.

The holdback advantage is at its peak at 13 years old. Huge advantage at that point. After that, the holdback advantage steadily declines every year. If your kid is younger than 13, then you are in for a big surprise. If he’s older, I would be very surprised. Shocked, actually.

Go ahead and complete your post by naming club team and age group for this claim, otherwise this claim is unfounded.

2024 - Team 91 - Wolfpack

2021 NLF National Champion
2021 #1 Ranked Team in Nation (US Club Lacrosse & NLF National Ranking)
2020 - #3 Ranked Team in Nation (US Club Lacrosse)
2019 - #1 Ranked Team In Nation (US Club Lacrosse)
2019 - World Series of Youth Lacrosse - Undefeated Champion

Everyone gets into Spalding and St. Mary’s. Lol.

Everyone with 18 K gets an honorary Catholic designation and spalding has 300+ kids a class-very selective

Your information is not correct… that team has 4-5 kids that entreated the public school system late so they are in fact hold backs.

Spalding public school with uniforms. Btw the new high school being built across the street will be a better school.

HaHa, I should add ALL the w-w-k-w-dads who can’t spell. Unless ‘0ak’ is some special code used by the wimpy white dads who post on this thread. LMAO

Everyone on this team isn’t on age lol. Get out of here dude.

Oh man you got him so good! Sick burn. Wow! ROASTED!!! That dude must have fat thumbs. What a nerd…right! RIGHT!?!?!?

I’m guessing that response was from a kid.

You’re 50 years old mike let it go. Just check the niche rankings to see how stm and as compare. Truth is neither have terribly high standards. And it’s embarrassing for a grown man to care that much.

Not the poster, but for the sake of accuracy, I can say that it is most likely true. Over the years, I’ve gotten to know some of the parents on the team, and by all accounts, Wolfpack has no holdbacks. To us, I know it sounds like an impossibility. But it’s not ingrained on Long Island, like it is here. The biggest reason for that is because they have no boarding schools on LI. So there are very few holdbacks as a result.

And parent coaches. Kids will be in for a shock when dad is not there to ignore their mistakes and look at everyone else's.

Yeah Mike, come on!

Mike must not have things going for him according to plan.

Cant be a young team if they've been together for 9 years.

Is this the same guy with the constant hurt feelings on the Facebook MIAA lax page?

This is why public schools don't fail kids.

Everyone is an "honor student!"

Yeah the Private schools don't have grade inflation. LOL

They do.
But there's a reason why everyone from public school have honor roll stickers on their car. Everyone makes it.
And more often than not, public school kids GPAs drop when they hit private school.

I’d like to know where you get your “more often than not” data. It sounds like a “trust me bro…” source

My son transferred from an out of state public high school to a New England boarding school this fall. He almost had a 4.0 at the public school and his grades have dropped (but are still high) a bit at the prep school. It’s just different at private/prep schools and most kids will have an adjustment period at the new school, just like they will when they enter college. There is no doubt that private/prep school curriculum is different from public schools and will take some time for students to adjust.

It's pretty well known and not controversial, but it's not about actual course material (again, see 100-300 SAT point differences....not nothing, but not huge) as much as it is about the expectations that put the "prep" in "prep school." These expectations cause the boys' grades to go bump in the night on a regular basis, especially if they are not self-starters (most aren't) on Day 1.

Off the top of my head, and this is Gilman so your mileage may vary:

1) Expectation that even in 6th-8th grade private, the student is responsible for getting copies of all notes and assignments from other students in case of a sick day. No parental or teacher involvement. Parent emails generally ignored (your mileage may vary, donors!). Students have to schedule any makeup assignments on their own.

2) Expectation that if a question or assignment is unclear, the student will contact the teacher for clarification *before the deadline.*

3) Expectations for long readings and major projects that they are basically complete 2-3 days ahead of deadline without reminders.......creates a sort-of grade inflation situation where teacher can review draft reports, presentations etc and recommend last minute changes.......expectation that student takes the input and makes last minute / late night changes as recommended.

4) No reminders period about upcoming quizzes and tests that were previously announced.

5) Expectations that the boys can describe their work or project to the class, semi-accurately, with little or no notice.

If you know anything about 12-14 year old kids, you know those things are all potential land mines for good grades until they "get with the program" which sometimes is 2nd semester, sometimes, never.

If you think PS is more selective than Private, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

And let's remember reported school SAT scores are not the same.

The public school SAT scores just include the kids that took the SATs. The low performers sat out and didn't drag down the school's scores.

The private schools require ALL of their students to take the SATs.

That's not true.

Gilman is at the top of food chain of privates except for Park, which is a bastion of intellectual twits. Most privates are much less or the same than the top classes at many better publics. Many public kids do well and go to top colleges.

And all are older than any public school kid for same grade. Does help to be a 7th grader doing 6th grader work.

I am all for private schools but I don't think SAT score is the metric you want to hang your hat on.

You could argue (I'm not) that the difference in SATs comes down to one metric: If you fail a course for the year, you are generally asked to leave the school.

I know that at Loyola, Georgetown and Severn it's rare to find a student with below a 2.7 GPA or so. And there's no coherent argument that any of those are "easier" than public school, so.....it does mean that they either screen out, coach up, or get rid of kids who can't hang academically.

At BL, most classes are Psaa/Fail only so they don't impact their GPA. Only Math, English and History are graded.

Come on Mike! Let it go!

Surprised BL gardes any subject. Their reputation is well deserved.

It should be noted that over and over again, the best pro-public school argument on this thread is "average private school kid is no better than the top 10% of public school kids" or "private school kids are no better than the top 25% of kids at gifted/talented programs at public schools."

I mean, this is probably quite accurate but it's not exactly a strong argument for public schools.

And if you think grade inflation is a private school problem only, keep on Glen Burning. In Baltimore City (yes, an extreme example, but regulated by the same state Dept of Ed as AACO and Balt County) they hand out "A's" to students who never attended a class, for a class that was never even given a classroom, for a teacher who was never hired. Which is why UMD does not accept City schools diplomas as proof of college readiness. Would not be surprised if the same declaration is coming for Alleghany, Garrett, Somerset, Wicomico.

[/quote] Gilman is at the top of food chain of privates except for Park, which is a bastion of intellectual twits. Most privates are much less or the same than the top classes at many better publics. Many public kids do well and go to top colleges.[/quote]

Sometimes it is better to be thought ignorant than to say something and prove it.

From Newsweek - as of the year 2020:

Among the schools deemed tops for science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) are “high-profile institutions” in urban areas and “small but strong programs” around the United States, according to Cooper. In all cases, she said the best STEM schools have “skilled teachers who keep up with developments in these fields and who create dynamic learning environments to engage their students.”

Here are all the STEM schools in Maryland that earned a spot on the list:

Baltimore Polytechnic Institute
Baltimore
Public
STEM Rank: 36

Poolesville High School
Poolesville
Public
STEM Rank: 121

Thomas S. Wootton High School
Rockville
Public
STEM Rank: 160

Eastern Technical High School
Essex
Public
STEM Rank: 240

Holton-Arms School
Bethesda
Public
STEM Rank: 243

Centennial High School
Ellicott City
Public
STEM Rank: 268

Winston Churchill High School
Potomac
Public
STEM Rank: 282

River Hill High School
Clarksville
Public
STEM Rank: 290

Towson High School
Towson
Public
STEM Rank: 310

Gilman School
Baltimore
Private
STEM Rank: 312

Marriotts Ridge High School
Marriottsville
Public
STEM Rank: 412

The Bryn Mawr School
Baltimore
Private
STEM Rank: 412

Walt Whitman High School
Bethesda
Public
STEM Rank: 419

Urbana High School
Ijamsville
Public
STEM Rank: 445

McDonogh School
Owings Mills
Private
STEM Rank: 459

If you believe this, please send your kid to Poly or Eastern Tech.
Just be careful leaving your STEM classroom, going to your locker, eating in the cafeteria, or walking the halls.

Again, the private vs public school standards are just very different questions. Nobody is sending their kid to McD to be a County health inspector.

Let's look at the college attendance from Poly, at the top of your list:

1) Morgan State
2) UMD (UMCP)
3) Towson U

So let's compare fairly - Nobody is sending their kid to Gilman or McD to attend Morgan State or Towson unless it's on some kind of full ride. They *might* be sending their private school kid to UMCP on less-than-full scholarship, because the kid, with his "equal to the top 10% of public" basic-ness, could not get scholarships to Georgetown, ND, Boston College, etc, and if his parents have any sense, they send him to UMCP which is an outstanding college for any private or public school kid, at 1/3 the cost of an elite private college, the equivalent network of which they already purchased during HS.

“Let’s compare fairly” is certainly the most ironic and tone deaf statement I think I’ve heard when talking about private wealthy schools on a lacrosse message board transposed to free public education.

UMD has a larger Gilman alum presence than any other school. Your point doesn’t make any sense.

Then explain why you decided to write what you did ? Might want to understand these words, Self Awareness.

It's as ridiculous and delusional as the people who want to believe public schools are even remotely on the same level academically as privates.

You should check your facts. Students are not REQUIRED to take SATs unless the schools they are applying to require them, whether they go to a public or private high school. There are quite a few in my son’s private school class who did not take them because the universities they were applying to no longer require them for admissions.

It totally made sense.

The issue is some programs at some publics are at a minimum academically on par and in many cases superior.

Across the board paying 140k for high school should get you a better education that paying nothing.

However it’s not a blanket statement to say that all of one is better (or inferior) to all of another. I know parents need to justify paying the tuition for 14 years but the facts are what they are.

You can get a good education and get admitted to a fine college from certain publics and certain privates. It’s all good.

What , That you are looking for some ?

I'm fine with my on age kid playing against holdbacks. Good players play up, not down. Simple way to solve the holdback issue, and it doesn't take reform from U.S. Lacrosse, just a little transparency from HoCo.
Every HoCo team should have to submit a roster that includes birthdates of each player. Post that info - no names identifying kids - just the D.OB. and zip code for each player on the team on the HoCo web site. Then everyone would see what teams are really 'elite' and what teams are just stacking their rosters with holdbacks and double holdbacks.
I do think it is a safety issue when certain clubs with anger issues use 5th graders against 3rd graders. Publicly posting D.OB. info would be a free, easy, no cost way to at least level the factual playing field.

Why would HoCO let people know that their league was unsafe for kids?

Second sentence = facts!

Who is dad gonna impress at the water cooler if his kid is on age and average. Remember what this is all about. Feeding parents egos. Get with the program.

holdback discussion infinite loop:

Parents of on age kids who aren’t quite good enough to start but can play at the elite level against holdbacks—>>> moderately complain but understand that’s the way it is and generally keep it moving.

Parents of on age kids who are able to play and start against holdbacks —>> also understand it stinks but it’s generally realize in 4 years their sons will be a level above the holdbacks anyway.

Parents of holdbacks who are killing it at the elite level —>> hit the wall, play soccer, check the rankings we rule!

Parents of holdbacks who are riding the bench —>> generally silent as they quietly know their sons are going to constantly stay on the bubble to be cut every season from here on out.

Parents of AAA kids who are hovering around elite - generally the most vitriol. Feels that if there were no holdbacks taking their kids place theyd be where they want to be. This crew is TOXIC.

Parents of on age kids who are not very good at all —>> usually the loudest and somehow equate other older kids as being the reason their son isn’t a better player. That has nothing to do with anything but when your looking for an excuse - blame holdbacks.

Parents of kids playing and contributing somewhere around AA ball —>> generally seem to have the most fun just watching their sons play where they are.

Good summary. Fortunately my kid is in the category of on-age and undersized but still competes at the elite level versus holdbacks. These types of kids have tone of upside once they hit puberty.

Ok, there is a reason people hold back!!! Look at the College players. How many of the top players in college now in the top 10 colleges were “holdbacks” back when?

You sound like a holdback parent, trying to rationalize it as the “non holdback” parents that are the real problem!? Youth lacrosse needs to address the holdback issue! Period!!

Lots are heldback. I would think as a percentage, holdbacks in College lacrosse are way above average for on age players players if you take all lacrosse players as a whole.

It does work. No question about it. Makes good to very good players on age instant above average players, Cant say it doesnt. If I want my kid to play D1, I am holding him back regardless of grades

And, plenty have done it and will do it for lacrosse! The earlier the better. They won’t admit it though!! I know of many who have! Its almost like you have to nowadays for D1 Colleges.

My son just signed his NLI to play at a top D1 school and top 1 or 2 conference. On age and under sized. Always undersized but always had the advantage when playing against bigger old opponents. I never minded the holdbacks at any age it always made my kid better.

With Covid, you are going to see an uptick of holding back across the board. You can’t just replace 2 years of schooling, that for some, was almost exclusively online.

And if you hold back for sports, who cares? The reality of athletics is stronger more mature bodies perform better, and coaches want players with college ready bodies. There are so many kids to pick from playing lacrosse now that they don’t have to take an on age skinny kid when they can take a year older kid who is more developed physically, faster and stronger with the same skill set. It’s a no brainer for college coaches. They want that college ready player and one easy way to get it is to hold back and give your body time to develop.

I think at this point in high school, after the top 15-20 players, there isn’t much separating players who have played on top teams at top tourneys/showcases. It’s more about what you bring physically to the table and how athletic you are and hopefully along the way you maintained a good GPA. When you get to 10th grade club lacrosse, nobody cares who wins these tourneys, it’s all about showing well individually in front of coaches and playing competitive lacrosse.

Whoa that made sense........

Mike. Let it go.

Tell me your son wasn’t smart enough to be in his *actual* grade and good enough to play on age without telling me.

But what about all the T-shirts we won and the piney blacket we had made?

☝🏻

^^^ This

If the holdback route does not work for your son, there is always the women's swim team at Penn.

Yeah, I hear your son’s hormone therapy got him a place on the girl’s squad …congratulations ’holdback’ dad.

The IMLCA had a recruiting tournament this weekend. The better 2023 teams were loaded with holdbacks. Kids looked older than most college kids. Crazy

The 2023 Crabs team were a bunch of monsters. Clearly bigger stronger and faster (older) than the rest of the field

You should see the coloring books they gave the winners as prizes! Lots of big open spaces so they don't color outside the lines.

Only going to get worse!!

They were the one team besides another ( Forgot name ) that were just like...what are these college Freshman doing here type players. LOL.. Like I said, so clear that these boys were older than other boys by appearance.

Since this topic has permeated all regions, I thought it prudent to establish a scale for debate. All birthdays are for the 2028 age group.

Playing up - current 5th grader
On age - 2010 birthday, 6th grade
Older on age - born after 9/1/09, old WSYL cutoff and NY
Level 1 - summer birthday: July-aug 2009, always a 28. Likely did a pre first or started school later
Level 2 - reclass/repeat: July-aug 2009 that recently started playing with 28s after being a 27. Normally happens with a school change. Reclasses are young 7th graders and play on 28 teams who will be held back in an upcoming year (this is shady). repeats are now in 6th grade.
Level 3: older repeat: Jan-jun 2009. Repeated a grade somewhere along the way with some doing a pre first or 2 kindergartens.
Level 4: egregious holdback sep-dec 2008: should be a 27 and on the older side for that group, gaming the system
Level 5: double holdback: aug 08 and before, no business playing 28, gaming the system

From conversations and observations across the country. The vast majority of teams outside of New York are mostly on age and level 1. NY considers anything past 9/1 as a holdback but Level 1 kids and parents only know this age group. Both groups have a point with NY teams playing kids a few months older that would be a grade up at home and level 1 parents see itching wrong since they are within the grade rules. As the talent level improves, more Level 2 enter and a few Level 3 and things get sideways since it comes off as patently unfair as the age gap increases (although still within the rules). Level 4 does exist at this group but is fairly rare and obvious for teams from Mid Atlantic and New England. Level 5 occurs later in 8th or 9th grade as parents pull out all the stops before high school.
My suggestion would be to go age based and make the cutoff may 1. This would give families options and a level field for geographic nuances for grade based play. Calendar year is also an option but that tends to split grades since many 6th graders are late 09 and 5th graders are late 10.

Happy debating and let’s keep it on this board versus spread out across all of BOTC

On age dad here.

That list above has problems in that it presumes all kids born before summer 2009 repeated a grade. In 6th grade most just did pre first who fit this bill. Prefirst isn’t repeating a grade.

I know of zero double holdbacks at 2028 and maybe two kids who are 13 right now because they are fall 2008 prefirst kids.

The reclass wave hasn’t really started yet for 2028s and it will be generally done by on age kids in 8th grade.

There is a difference in being a holdback (repeating a grade) and not being on age. Effectively they are the same thing in that kids are older than most others but the nuance is lost on most here.

I hope all of the 2027 hold backs enjoy their cars that Santa brings them for Christmas!!!

Gotta love the Madlax crew

When this Crabs team lost a few this summer not a mention of this. Now they stomp the competition and it goes back to the they must be older talk. Jealousy is an ugly emotion.

The MIAA like to get kids in in 7th or 8th grade.

Nothing ugly. It is a true statement that Crabs are older than most teams?? Now what is said about it might be ugly, but MIAA players and Crabs in general are loaded with holdbacks. Head of org promotes holding back at most speeches he gives .

Watched them get a beat down at the inside Lacrosse event Sept 1 By 91 LI

Good. There shouldn’t be 13yr olds with 11yr olds. My kid is still 11 playing on 2028. Had no clue about this hold back stuff when we were deciding if we should send to K or wait. Smh.

Thats on you, if you have the choice always send later. Proven that older kids in the class will be ahead and therefore pick up more developmental opportunities. So if youre just getting around to figuring out how to best position your kid because of Lacrosse you have bigger issues.

Do holdbacks as a category exist in the real world? Is it a concept High School or College coaches care about? Or does it only exist in forums and the minds of LARPing dads?

Back in the day we simply had a different name for kids that played against younger competition and a better one for dad's who championed it. Now it's called holdbacks

Remember when the good kids got pulled up? That was real sign of talent.

Nope, college coaches don't care. Read any article on any sport regarding the transfer portal, grad students and the extra year of eligibility.

Thats on you, if you have the choice always send later. Proven that older kids in the class will be ahead and therefore pick up more developmental opportunities. So if youre just getting around to figuring out how to best position your kid because of Lacrosse you have bigger issues.
This obviously does not come from an educator. There are countless studies that holding your child back when they are developmentally ready to start school is actually detrimental to their academic development.

High school coaches don’t care either.

Frankly they prefer it it in MIAA to compete. Sorta sad, but that is the way it is now. I dont know why we cant hold back two years? or is that stretching it?

CH recently tried that and the league ruled the player ineligibility for 2022.

They prefer the High School holdback and then a redshirt before they actually have to put the player on field. Perfect example is the former BL Lefty attackman for MD. Guy was holdback then Redshirt and now has a extra year due to covid. Will be 25 his last season at MD. Gotta Love it !!

False. He turned 23 in July 2021 based on Syracuse web site.

Nope, could care less! Just want the bigger , stronger, faster kids! If an extra year or two helps kid become that…. Also extra year of playing developing skills. Even better!

Fair point, I can name one double holdback in MD at the middle school and that is a unique circumstance -- a refuge kid from western africa who arrived in 4th or 5th grade and came here not speaking a word of english. Def the most physical player on his travel team but far from the most talented

13 year olds should not be in 6th grade

Madlax would disagree

That’s not what Crabs told me.

They have at least a few kids who were considered HS "juniors" last year, and are still enrolled at CH, but not participating in 2022 due to their...uhm...advanced age.
And they still have 120+ kids on their program roster.

CH- where kids go to ride pine.

It's not a bad strategy, really. Only play 22 kids on game day, but recruit as many kids as possible so they can't play against you in the future.

Why would CH bring in kids their junior year with no eligibility their senior year? Doesn’t make sense.

Do you really think the CH Coach cares what happens the next year with these players. With over 100 players, next year will take care of itself

Youth Basketball is grade based with a Ton of older kids in youth programs. But no one would dare say anything about those kids.

No, Most AAU is age based as is Hockey, Football and Baseball and the world's largest sport soccer. There is some AAU BB grade base and it is a big fat mess with many deciding that is not fair and refusing to play in grade based AAU.

You holdback apologists are always attempting to make your son and his playing down ok.. its not

Let me know how many age based basketball tournaments you can find on Tourney Machine.

AAU basketball is grade based and has rampant age mismatching across brackets - far worse than what’s seen in lacrosse.

Well you’re wrong. It’s age and grade.
https://image.aausports.org/dnn/boysbasketball/pdf/Eligibility-Rules.pdf

Some are aged based. Majority are grade based, especially in our area.

Go to any youth basketball tournament too on Tourney Machine.

There are 16 year old 8th graders dunking on kids. No one will dare to call them "little Johnny" or "dense" to their face or parents face.

nice of you to post only the rules for aged based events, but not the rules for grade events in AAU hoops

Here's a link for rules for bot age and grade

https://aauboysbasketball.org/Rules/Boys-Basketball-Eligibility

One thing they do that lacrosse tournaments can and should can do is to but a birthday cap. Ie the mythical double holdback would not be allowed

The mythical double holdback? They don’t hold back twice. They start school later or do a pre first year. Then 1 holdback year. I guess that technically doesn’t make them a double holdback. Just almost two years older.

Just checking in…yep. Still active posts. Most worthless thread on here. None of you will have any impact either way. Go spend some time with you boys. Me…imma hit the wall baby!!! I still have 4 years of eligibility left. I’m a 20 year holdback.

You have no idea who you are actually talking to as this is an anonymous board so I will cut you a break lol.

But just trust me I know what I’m talking about and you clearly do not.

No harm no foul.

The expert speaks out. AAU at the pure grade based level in youth is all but gone and has been a huge mess for years. Same issues as lacrosse. Most are going either strictly age based or grade with age restrictions. And yes, I know .. LOL .. Lacrosse is a niche sport that only keeps the facade of this huge amount of kids playing down by being a niche sport driven by private schools and clubs.

Give it up… you’re arguing about something you have no knowledge of

Different poster but basketball has been moving more and more to class based. Here is the most recent AAU nationals with both age and class based divisions.
https://aauboysbasketball.org/page.php?page_id=105579&pv=1

Football has also moved to a combination of age and weight based divisions for years now. Older but lighter players play "down."

They recruited these holdbacks back in 8th grade. They have played for CH from freshmen- JR year. Now these kids have “aged out” and are too old to play in the MIAA as seniors.

Is this the same stuff you tell little johnny when he asks about playing down against younger players than him?? Playing down is not in Football or AAU serious BB. Keep telling yourself and your son everyone is doing it, that always seems to work. LOL

And you can stop lying to your son ‘again’ by telling him the reason he is the team “water boy” is NOT because he can’t complete against other boys who are bigger, stronger and faster than he is or ever will be. The truth hurts so cry me a river and stop lying to yourself and your son, little man.

Are you even looking at the links being provided?
Here is the Pop Warner football guidelines for age and weight. Ages can be up to 3 years apart.
https://www.popwarner.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1476162

So these kids ARE the mythical double holdbacks- 19 or 20 as high school seniors this spring.

Pathetic.

You holdback apologists are always reaching for some reason to play little johnny down. Pathetic... Pop Warner rules are clear ...If you happen to be the oldest, YOU MUST be at minimum 20 lbs lighter than the other age groups......And remember , after being oldest in your age group in football, the next year you are youngest with the same thing each three years.... How hard is that to see ??? Frankly its pretty fair compared to lacrosse that is letting any age play down as long as he is in grade.

What a difference than your little johnny playing down his ENTIRE youth lacrosse time ?? LOL.. Yea, thats the spirit play down against younger children. Any other lame excuses for playing down.

You keep ranting other sports don't do it and they obviously do. Glad you finally admit it.

Y
You have just debunked your own absurd argument. Can’t get much fooler than that. LoL
But we are all sure you’ll try your best next time to reach a new low in cognitive dysfunction. What’s really sad is your kid has half your genes. ….but that’s probably a big maybe.

Holding back is playing down. Everyone knows it. It's weak sauce.
That's why the parents who do it to their children deny it on the sidelines and defend it here.

Your clichés are as silly as your puerile nonsense. But keep it up ‘weak sauce’ it’s humorous to watch you make a fool of yourself and along with your untenable position.

What team does your son play for?

Sure. Your attempt at big words and insults bely your deep seated insecurities about your decision to hold back your underperforming son.

You know deep down that good athletes, those who will play at top D1 schools in college, don't need daddy to socially manipulate their athletics.

If your son plays in college, it's probably gonna be D3 or MCLA for him. Which is fine. You've already been making excuses for holding back Sonny in middle school. You'll soon be regaling your friends about what a "hidden gem" Greensboro or Illinois Wesleyan is.

Weak Sauce...the weakest kind of sauce, like you and your boy

What are you talking about?

Are you ashamed to even talk about the club your son plays for?

Not at all. I have 3 kids. All on-age or playing up and having good experiences. 25 (on age- off the bench for 91 Fire), 28 (playing up for 27 Koopers) and 29 (playing up for 28 HLC).

Reading comprehension must have missed you in school. Bet you were a holdback . LOL You got guilt oozing out of your words. It is Hilarious. Relax, your son plays down against other children.

“Reading comprehension must have missed you…”
Thank you for another of your silly memes, that makes no sense. But that’s what keeps us all laughing ‘at’ you.
Hey did you get that DNA test yet for your kid Chubby? It might take that edge off your animosity towards little boys, little man.