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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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That leads to this question, are NCAA coaches really that stupid? When they evaluate a 16 year old freshman higher than a 14 year old based on size, strength and other physical advantages, it does not occur to them that the 16 year old is getting close to fully grown whereas the 14 year old is not? This recruiting edge you mention would need to accept as fact NCAA coaches are really stupid. Are they or is this advantage overstated?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
pretty sure hawks only had four, one of the bethesda area teams had 7 and madlax had 6, so it's not strictly a crabs thing, i have had two sons play in the npyll who were not heldback, most people in this area have moved on and don't whine about it everyday

Convenient, if it was true, but it is not even close to reality. Would make Crabs seem almost normal. Make stuff up much? Crabs are the heart of the reclass issue, and it's not normal.

Crabs and Hawks over ruled other members and voted to take NPYLL grade based. They did it to protect themselves, and maintain recruiting edge.

That's a fact!


How is it an Edge when everyone has the same rules?

Most teams have hold backs for either intentional sports reasons or unintentional education/developmental reasons.

The single grade method is far better than the two year age cutoff combined method, so there is progress.


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People advocating this grade based system over an age based system for club play will say anything and always duck answering this question: if we are going to have teams by each year, what is the argument against age based for club tournaments and rec leagues?

Lining up against you is 1. fairness, 2. safety of the kids, 3. grade based teams can go onwards where they fit, which is in scholastic sports, and 4. a kid who was held back for education and non-sports developmental reasons can play school ball with his classmates and not be socially tarnished or stigmatized as a "lacrosse reclassified". I have a son who repeated first grade because of months to recover from serious car accident internal injuries. He is big for his age, and frankly I am sick and tired of him being looked at and down on as a reclassified kid.

The way the Crabs argue this point back is sickening to me as the parent of my son. Don't ever tread on the point that "well, there are SOME kids who flunked a grade or had a physical or mental developmental problem" so teasing a lacrosse reclassified kid is sort of like teasing an invalid, and that is the unsporting thing. Screw you McClernan. My son is not an A lister lacrosse recruit, but he is tough. He learned to walk again when he was 6. Your lacrosse reclassified kids are, for lack of a better term, sissies who don't belong on the same breath as my son.

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They like it.
They don't want to wait for little Johnny late bloomer to mature.

It stays an advantage.

Bigger Stronger Faster---get with it.

PHILLY does the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
pretty sure hawks only had four, one of the bethesda area teams had 7 and madlax had 6, so it's not strictly a crabs thing, i have had two sons play in the npyll who were not heldback, most people in this area have moved on and don't whine about it everyday

Convenient, if it was true, but it is not even close to reality. Would make Crabs seem almost normal. Make stuff up much? Crabs are the heart of the reclass issue, and it's not normal.

Crabs and Hawks over ruled other members and voted to take NPYLL grade based. They did it to protect themselves, and maintain recruiting edge.

That's a fact!


How is it an Edge when everyone has the same rules?

Most teams have hold backs for either intentional sports reasons or unintentional education/developmental reasons.

The single grade method is far better than the two year age cutoff combined method, so there is progress.



Typical strawman excuse coming from a grade based team apologist comparing 2 years age based teams to single grade base team... The correct comparison is single grade(with holdbacks playing down) to single age(no holdbacks playing down)..which one is right for youth sports.

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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Typical strawman excuse coming from a grade based team apologist comparing 2 years age based teams to single grade base team... The correct comparison is single grade(with holdbacks playing down) to single age(no holdbacks playing down)..which one is right for youth sports.
[/quote]

I agree, though I think comparing it to U.S. Lacrosse age groups is more than a straw man. I think U9, U10, U11, U12 etc is the way to go, though I would probably move the age deadline to 8/1 given how common it is for parents of August boys to wait a year for kindegarten.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
pretty sure hawks only had four, one of the bethesda area teams had 7 and madlax had 6, so it's not strictly a crabs thing, i have had two sons play in the npyll who were not heldback, most people in this area have moved on and don't whine about it everyday

Convenient, if it was true, but it is not even close to reality. Would make Crabs seem almost normal. Make stuff up much? Crabs are the heart of the reclass issue, and it's not normal.

it's absolutely true, there were two programs with more holdbacks than Crabs last season for 2018's


Crabs and Hawks over ruled other members and voted to take NPYLL grade based. They did it to protect themselves, and maintain recruiting edge.

That's a fact!


wasn't at the vote, but don't know how two owners would over rule a majority of owners in a vote

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What the [lacrosse] is wrong with our society? Didn't you all grow up playing sports in a two year age system? There was 9-10, 11-12, 13-15. And we used f'ing bachrach raisin helmets and styrofoam arm pads. And gloves that were foam that we had to cut the palms out of. Against defenders wielding 6 ft long solid wood poles. When exactly did it become impossible for a 11 yr old to play against a 12 yr old that happened to be in their grade? (For whatever reason)

I just don't get the issue with the grade based system. Is the difference between a kid born in the summer and therefore is 12 playing against 11 yr olds better or worse than a 11 yr old born in September playing against a 10 year old that was born two years later in August?

As usual in our society, the answer seems to be lets coddle our children and make sure they only play against kids that were born in the same 12 month period. While we're at it, lets have separate divisions for kids based on height and weight. Jesus. This is club lacrosse. The real problem is that rec has been watered down so badly that parents are signing their kids up for club that have no business doing so. There are so many crappy club teams out there that cant compete and take anyone that will pay them their $1500 dollars. Yes, those kids are at risk when playing against Crabs, Breakers, FCA... Is it because they are younger or because they have no business being on the field with them?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
What the [lacrosse] is wrong with our society? Didn't you all grow up playing sports in a two year age system? There was 9-10, 11-12, 13-15. And we used f'ing bachrach raisin helmets and styrofoam arm pads. And gloves that were foam that we had to cut the palms out of. Against defenders wielding 6 ft long solid wood poles. When exactly did it become impossible for a 11 yr old to play against a 12 yr old that happened to be in their grade? (For whatever reason)

I just don't get the issue with the grade based system. Is the difference between a kid born in the summer and therefore is 12 playing against 11 yr olds better or worse than a 11 yr old born in September playing against a 10 year old that was born two years later in August?

As usual in our society, the answer seems to be lets coddle our children and make sure they only play against kids that were born in the same 12 month period. While we're at it, lets have separate divisions for kids based on height and weight. Jesus. This is club lacrosse. The real problem is that rec has been watered down so badly that parents are signing their kids up for club that have no business doing so. There are so many crappy club teams out there that cant compete and take anyone that will pay them their $1500 dollars. Yes, those kids are at risk when playing against Crabs, Breakers, FCA... Is it because they are younger or because they have no business being on the field with them?


Good morning Mr. Tough 1980s guy, You miss the point completely. If you think this is a debate over 11 year olds being on the same field as 10 year olds, go back 20 pages on this thread and start reading. There are instances of the age spread being dangerous for the kids more than 2 years apart in some instances at the youth ages in a contact sport. I agree with your point about too many clubs and too watered down levels for clubs now. The whole point was to go to year-by-year to make room for more teams, more $$$$, etc. The moronic conclusion to do this grade based rather than by age based which US Lacrosse lamely endorses but everyone ignored doesn't have an argument to stand on except to preserve an artificial 7th to 9th grade recruiting advantage. Scott Baio called, he wants is jean jacket back.

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I agree with this post mostly. The fact that these B level clubs want to play at the AA level is the real issue. Its why when you get to the high school age the tournments do not let in the lower level clubs. They only take the top 20 or so from the country and leave out these B level travel programs out there. I think the top NPYLL type programs only play in these tournments when the teams are young with the "other Guys" is to let there better players see what a real club looks like and they come try out for them the next year.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
What the [lacrosse] is wrong with our society? Didn't you all grow up playing sports in a two year age system? There was 9-10, 11-12, 13-15. And we used f'ing bachrach raisin helmets and styrofoam arm pads. And gloves that were foam that we had to cut the palms out of. Against defenders wielding 6 ft long solid wood poles. When exactly did it become impossible for a 11 yr old to play against a 12 yr old that happened to be in their grade? (For whatever reason)

I just don't get the issue with the grade based system. Is the difference between a kid born in the summer and therefore is 12 playing against 11 yr olds better or worse than a 11 yr old born in September playing against a 10 year old that was born two years later in August?

As usual in our society, the answer seems to be lets coddle our children and make sure they only play against kids that were born in the same 12 month period. While we're at it, lets have separate divisions for kids based on height and weight. Jesus. This is club lacrosse. The real problem is that rec has been watered down so badly that parents are signing their kids up for club that have no business doing so. There are so many crappy club teams out there that cant compete and take anyone that will pay them their $1500 dollars. Yes, those kids are at risk when playing against Crabs, Breakers, FCA... Is it because they are younger or because they have no business being on the field with them?


Did you even read why people are against YOUTH grade based teams (letting a special select group of children heldback play down ) versus age based teams ( all the same age whether one or two years, no special group to get an advantage ) and all that goes with it. Fairplay in youth sports, certain teams with most holdback, etc, etc....Maybe that raisan helmet didnt do its job when you were playing against those tough guys.

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You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.


And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.


And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown.


Seriously? AAU basketball is the absolute equivalent to club lacrosse. The kids play together for years as they move up through school. They go play in tournaments all summer in front of college coaches. Kids switch schools and reclass all the time to be in a better recruiting situation. Many AAU teams are run by people just looking to make money and take advantage of the culture. You're right though. I'm the clown. That doesn't sounds anything like the club lacrosse culture. But I guess since they aren't MIAA rich kids that are pushing your son off a team it isn't something you notice/care about.

And what rock do you live under that girls club lacrosse just started 1-3 years ago? Girls lacrosse is more like 10% school based. Ever heard of M&D, Skywalkers, Yellow Jackets?? Been around longer than most boys clubs and have been grade based most of that time. And read some of the Yellow Jacket/LI Top Guns threads. The girls game is 100x more cut throat then the boys.

Point is, that this is the way the game works these days. No matter how stupid it is, and no matter how unlikely it is that little Johnny is going to get a lax scholarship, the parents(Not Ryan) are going to work for every angle they can to put their kids in best situation. I have 3 kids that are on age for their grade and have never seen a game between top clubs where kids were in danger because there was someone 5 months older. The dangers I have seen are when less skilled players are standing over a ball and get train wrecked. This is on the club owners and the parents of the kids that shouldn't be out there.

Are there any studies that show an increase in injuries in the last few years and if so is this at all related to the 5 or 6 holdbacks on the team involved?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.


And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown.


You lose all credibility when making an ignorant statement like the following:
"Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years."
It is people like you, who have no clue what you're talking about, who make this whole site a joke and absent of true facts. This site is purely for entertainment purposes only. People seeking the real story on issues should seek advice elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.


And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown.


with regard to girls lax, previous poster is right and you are the clown. I have daughter who is soph in college started playing club lax in 6th grade. it was around before then. not sure what you mean by 90% school based but the list of non-school affiliated of girls lacrosse clubs is as longs as the boys. it's not so much an argument against age-based as it is an acknowledgement that grade is not much different than the u13,u15 system that has been in place since the Bacharach helmets. poster above references 8th grade event that had 16 yr playing vs. 13yr. Sounds bad until you consider maybe the 16 yr has Sept bday and 13 yr olds turn 14 in summer. 16 vs. 13 could be as little as 12 months & 1 day difference or max of 24 months and 30day - which would be within the age parameters if said tournament was u15. The inferences that somehow Crabs and/or MIAA schools are behind some grand conspiracy to change youth lax to grade is silly. They seemed to be going with the flow that others started. I'm no Crabs insider or supporter. I di think it would be great to see leagues and tournaments that are arranged by grade use to example of AAU 24 month age window

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


tournaments are following how the clubs are set-up. Maryland clubs followed how the LI clubs are set-up. If we're talking about youth teams it's about fairness and safety. The bottom line is that league and tournaments that offer grade A & B divisions give many teams as chance to find competitive brackets for their skill levels. And the age variances are a smaller window on average than with traditional 2yr age brackets. If you're going to throw out 13 yr old 8th grader playing vs 16 yr holdback I've not seen it. That's a double holdback and I believe that would extremely rare and there should some limit on ages. I have summer, spring & fall bday kids. We're public so no holdback even if we wanted to. Not trying to justify going to this system or keeping kids back for sports. But now were in it I'm not seeing where the crises is and I think most others don't either - whether their kids were held back or not. Until the outrage is more than a vocal group on internet forums than trend towards grade will continue. Personally I agree that single age brackets are the best and fairest. But I like the grade brackets over the 2 yr age brackets

And if we're talking about 9th grade up and the kids can't compete with older kids, then they are not ready to be recruited or play varsity lacrosse


My understanding of LI going grade base teams is due to Dec 1 school start date and USL Aug 31 age start date. Md school start date is the same as USL Aug 31. I may be wrong but it seems like LI going grade base gives them a DISADVANTAGE as the oldest child is DEC 1 birthday while Maryland oldest age base would be Sept 1. MD kids could be 3 months older ,,is this right?? With a few holdbacks on a MD grade base team vs grade base LI team this would even be more advantage for MD, 6 months plus older kids. Please chime in if I have this wrong.


I don't think you have that last part wrong. Picking over kids being 3 months older is moot, but consider that with a Sept 1st trigger a MD holdback kid can be closer to two years older than one over a younger natural aged LI kid in his grade. You also noted that in public schools you can't go in for repeating grades for sports, so that means doing it is an investment in private school tuitions starting at 8th or 9th grade. Let's not waste time, nobody is repeating 10th or 11th grade for lacrosse reasons after most ships have sailed. So the holdback "advantage" is one obtainable only by wealthy kids. Prep schools love that because it is good for business. The MIAA and IAC schools didn't have 12.6 scholarships like it is a college and most of those places run over $30K a year. I maintain that is fine for HS play, but if you look at much larger more established sports like soccer it is age based all the way through for non-school. There are over 200 D1 scholarship soccer programs and over 150 D2 scholarship programs in soccer and that sport is not crying for reforms. Its fair and it works.

It is a cop out to say "well, go do your own age based club tournaments then" to parents of kids not advantaged by this system. How? Start another unhappy Daddy lacrosse club and hope people join in? There is no such thing as a recreation or club league in MD that has age based club events. If you have not seen a 13 year old get plowed by a 15 or 16 year old, then you weren't at any Hogan or Madlax tournaments this fall. We had one kid knocked out cold by a knee to the head at the faceoff X. There was nothing dirty at all about the play, but the injury was definitely exacerbated by the fact that this was a tiny 12 year old 7th grader playing on a 7th/8th team playing against a 6 foot and heavy muscled 8th grader who was obviously a holdback. That is one thing your analysis missed somewhat, which two-year age groups you don't have a chance of seeing a 12 year old out there with 15 year holds. With grade based blend teams -- 7th and 8th grade throw togethers where they have a "B" team with kids off the "A" grade based teams or have talented 7th graders playing up -- you will literally see it every day at tournaments in Maryland. This tiny 7th grader was on this team I noted because the coaches wanted to play him up to get him ready for playing up next summer at recruiting tournaments. Think about that, a 12 year old 7th grader was out there with the enthusiastic consent of the club and his parents and then this...a very serious concussion where he stays out of school lies in bed in the dark for 2 weeks.

It just isn't worth it. But hey, let's wait for the big one, right? We're all tough lacrosse parents. A tragedy on the field with a middle school kid. Lawyer up Ryan, when that comes around you will be one who well deserves the blame and I for one will be glad to see an outcome where you are held accountable.[/quote]

why would anyone other the tiny 12 yrd old 7th grader's parents be "accountable" when they enthusiastically had him playing up?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You do realize that many sports are setup this way now correct? Girls club lacrosse has been for years. AAU basketball has been for years. I am going out on a limb here and saying that most kids that are older in AAU are not MIAA holdbacks. Are they a special select group also?

This is from AAU's website

The AAU is a grade based organization.  Each grade division consists of a 24 month age window which determines an
athletes’ participation in that division.  If an athletes’ age is outside the 24 month window for their grade, the athlete
must play up to the grade division that is normal and customary for their age.  If an athlete is in any grade above what is
normal and customary for their age, an athlete may play down provided they meet the established criteria listed in the
chart below.


And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown.


Seriously? AAU basketball is the absolute equivalent to club lacrosse. The kids play together for years as they move up through school. They go play in tournaments all summer in front of college coaches. Kids switch schools and reclass all the time to be in a better recruiting situation. Many AAU teams are run by people just looking to make money and take advantage of the culture. You're right though. I'm the clown. That doesn't sounds anything like the club lacrosse culture. But I guess since they aren't MIAA rich kids that are pushing your son off a team it isn't something you notice/care about.

And what rock do you live under that girls club lacrosse just started 1-3 years ago? Girls lacrosse is more like 10% school based. Ever heard of M&D, Skywalkers, Yellow Jackets?? Been around longer than most boys clubs and have been grade based most of that time. And read some of the Yellow Jacket/LI Top Guns threads. The girls game is 100x more cut throat then the boys.

Point is, that this is the way the game works these days. No matter how stupid it is, and no matter how unlikely it is that little Johnny is going to get a lax scholarship, the parents(Not Ryan) are going to work for every angle they can to put their kids in best situation. I have 3 kids that are on age for their grade and have never seen a game between top clubs where kids were in danger because there was someone 5 months older. The dangers I have seen are when less skilled players are standing over a ball and get train wrecked. This is on the club owners and the parents of the kids that shouldn't be out there.

Are there any studies that show an increase in injuries in the last few years and if so is this at all related to the 5 or 6 holdbacks on the team involved?


Girls lacrosse has no where near the amount of children held back like the boys. Grade base is fine as long as there is not a holdback mentality in the sport. Go to any PreFirst class since you are a MIAA expert and see what the ratio is. Mostly boys in mixed schools and 20 plus in some all boys school per yaer . And these are not all summer babies either. There is a culture of holding your child back in private schools to get your child an advantage. Of course this isnt all of the parents. Youth club lacrosse was changed to accommodate these kids or it would have been a easy U9,U10,U11, etc...

Youth Soccer was going the way of out of control Lacrosse and decided they needed some control. It is a simple U9,U10,U11 etc .. No holdbacks allowed and they have no trouble with recruiting, etc.but somehow apologists like you make up a hundred reasons why it needs to be done grade based.

AAU isnt grade base until High school according to their rules.
http://image.aausports.org/dnn/boysbasketball/pdf/Eligibility-Rules.pdf
Maybe you need to read better or maybe you are a clown like you called the other poster.

Make up reasons all you want but grade base lacrosse in Maryland was put out there for the holdbacks. No other reason as the school age aligns with USL. You are a apologist for letting a select group of kids get an advantage over many. Character education is a big thing in MIAA schools , I guess this is good character having an advantage over other kids... Just because other sports are doing it doesnt mean that is right.

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How about football, which does have kids "playing in helmets" where many leagues have more than a 2 year spread allowed? For example, the MMYF has 9-11 age bracket but you can be 12 if under a certain weight. So there could be a 3 year age gap in a sport with more contact than lacrosse. Nobody is pitching a fit there, but in lacrosse you can't have kids all in the same grade playing against each other? Doesn't make sense.

And what makes that a cogent argument against age based teams? Basketball is not a sport where kids are playing in helmets and other protective gear. Girls lacrosse is 90%+ school based, girls clubs only started in last 1-3 years. Many sports? You named two and one isn't even a club sport. Clown. [/quote]

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So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)

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AAU basketball is not grade based until high school, football goes by weight class and according to USLacrosse there were fewer than 5,000 girls youth club players registered with USL five years ago. Five years ago the number of school girl participants was over 100,000, so the 90% guess was low.

Yeah, Crabs are doing a 2020 down to 2022 box league. Your kid will need to bring two forms of ID including a valid driver's license to play.

Homey does play that.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)


Everybody will stop whinning when the Crabs stop telling us how good they are with a team that is loaded with holdbacks. It is an issue that the Crabs favor and the majority of lacrosse parents think is unfair at the youth level.

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Football is age and weight. And age cutoff is Aug 1. So you can have a kid 3 years older. Personally I'd rather my kid go against his same grade, even if some are nearly a year older than play football against a kid 3 years older (even if the older kid weighs less). So lacrosse going grade based is better.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)


Everybody will stop whinning when the Crabs stop telling us how good they are with a team that is loaded with holdbacks. It is an issue that the Crabs favor and the majority of lacrosse parents think is unfair at the youth level.


Every club has the same rules. please whine on the Age verification forum.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
AAU basketball is not grade based until high school, football goes by weight class and according to USLacrosse there were fewer than 5,000 girls youth club players registered with USL five years ago. Five years ago the number of school girl participants was over 100,000, so the 90% guess was low.

Yeah, Crabs are doing a 2020 down to 2022 box league. Your kid will need to bring two forms of ID including a valid driver's license to play.

Homey does play that.


Are they doing a box league? Or just a couple box tournaments?

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The problem with this debate and the arguments over aged based versus school year based teams with the safety or competitive factors all taken into account is still just that, an argument. US Lacrosse is in no position to tell prep schools what to do, and no body should make rules for prep schools if they want to keep it that same that kids who repeated grades can play school sports in their grade. There isn't anything wrong with that because there are examples of youths held back for health or academic reasons, and I am a parent of a kid in that category. It is unfair to prejudice those kids, so you can't prejudice anyone including kids who do it for sports reasons.

For now the club owners run things and want grade based club teams. I am on the side of US Lacrosse best practices that club lacrosse should be age based to promote safety and equity for the participants, but that is just my argument. There are reasons why ice hockey and soccer are age based for sanctioned non-school competitions, and the winning argument wasn't fairness to make that happen it was safety. The three leading concussion incident rate sports ten years ago were football, soccer and ice hockey. Now it is football, lacrosse and soccer. Soccer has high concussion rates because of head ball collisions and goalies hitting heads on goal posts. Many goalies have started wearing head gear and the sport does debate field player head gear. But the rule to go to age based was safety, get the older versus younger kids issue off the board and do single year age based teams by rule. Ice hockey did this same thing long before soccer for the same reasons, and concussion rates in sanctioned leagues events went down substantially following that.

Lacrosse has two problems. First, growth rate of head injuries and the growth rate of soft tissue injuries at a greater rate of growth than any other sport in the last decade. The first we have to blame on the way the game is played and not the equipment, the second may or may not be a casualty of sports specialization and overuse syndrome injuries. These growth rates are also highest at the youth levels with less physically mature and developed players. Second, we don't know what the growth rate from six months ago is yet because there isn't enough data to make any valid conclusions. The advocates of grade based teams are correct, you can't prove that lacrosse is less safe today because of grade based teams and moreover last year there were age based teams with two year spreads. So the argument that a holdback kid 18 months older is moot since we used to have U-11, U-13 and U-15. Thus grade based teams could not be any less safe than a year ago and according to the birth tables and rules that say you can't reclassify over and over again because players over the age of 19 are not allowed to play high school sports. Just my opinion that those are not BAD arguments, but they are also not GOOD arguments in support of grade based club or recreation lacrosse.

What isn't an opinion but is a fact is that soccer and ice hockey rules bodies realized after pouring over data that single year teams are better than two-year bracket age groups for these youth contact sports and that single year age based teams are best practices. If we can accept soccer and ice hockey as a model -- and some of us again argue against that -- then lacrosse eventually goes that way. Clearly US Lacrosse pushed it and for now the club and recreation leagues pushed back and we have grade based club and recreation lacrosse leagues. For now there isn't injury rate data in yet to denounce the grade based system, and quite possibly with the prior system of two-year spread age based teams it may very well be impossible to have any looking backwards data that says "here, lacrosse is so much more unsafe today over a few years ago"...the best hope for those who want age based is that relative to ice hockey and soccer, that lacrosse is trending higher and higher with head trauma injuries, therefore there is a relative data set to make the argument from. Again just my opinion, but I do see that happening and weakening the grade based system to a point where clubs and recreation leagues will need to go to U-8, U-9, U-10, etc. My argument is that lacrosse is not a large or mature enough sport to come to its own fair bargains, and it also has a very weak governing body in US Lacrosse, so the time it will take to sort this out with safety data versus other comparible head impact trauma risk sports like soccer and ice hockey in the years to come. I don't see this happening anytime soon because the science needs years of data with cases of head injuries to make a different conclusion.

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Soccer leads all sports in concussions. Lacrosse isn't close to football and soccer. Also, in non hot bed lax regions there isn't enough players to support u9,u10, etc. That is why there is currently a two year age structure by us lax and not one year.

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Correction: as a percentage rate by participants, football leads. The gross # for soccer is higher, but the # of participants is also higher by multiples. The concussion rates per participant rates are highest in football, then soccer and then lacrosse. Soccer had been #1 until 4 years ago, but has dampened out. Possibly because the growth rate of soccer continues to be huge and injuries relative to it are down, and that is possibly because of age based teams. But it was recent enough that soccer moved to age based that again there is no real data to back any theory yet.

If there aren't enough players in non-hotbeds to do single year teams, for that same reason there aren't enough players to support 2024, 2023, etc. either. That's a less credible argument, but point taken. I believe this debate is centered on single year grade versus single year age determinations.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)


Everybody will stop whinning when the Crabs stop telling us how good they are with a team that is loaded with holdbacks. It is an issue that the Crabs favor and the majority of lacrosse parents think is unfair at the youth level.


Every club has the same rules. please whine on the Age verification forum.



No Ryan.. The Crabs are the MIAA holdbacks club of choice. Due to you and a few other clubs that get this advantage we have grade based teams instead of a U9,U10,U11, etc.You are the type of person that gives youth sports a reputation of being disgusting to many people not only in the lacrosse sport but many out of sports. When they look at this and see an advantage gained by a select few along with Crabs getting a large share of these holdbacks,, no wonder average joe thinks of sports in a low way. I bet you are one of those that tells non sports people that you honor the game of lacrosse..

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The problem with this debate and the arguments over aged based versus school year based teams with the safety or competitive factors all taken into account is still just that, an argument. US Lacrosse is in no position to tell prep schools what to do, and no body should make rules for prep schools if they want to keep it that same that kids who repeated grades can play school sports in their grade. There isn't anything wrong with that because there are examples of youths held back for health or academic reasons, and I am a parent of a kid in that category. It is unfair to prejudice those kids, so you can't prejudice anyone including kids who do it for sports reasons.

For now the club owners run things and want grade based club teams. I am on the side of US Lacrosse best practices that club lacrosse should be age based to promote safety and equity for the participants, but that is just my argument. There are reasons why ice hockey and soccer are age based for sanctioned non-school competitions, and the winning argument wasn't fairness to make that happen it was safety. The three leading concussion incident rate sports ten years ago were football, soccer and ice hockey. Now it is football, lacrosse and soccer. Soccer has high concussion rates because of head ball collisions and goalies hitting heads on goal posts. Many goalies have started wearing head gear and the sport does debate field player head gear. But the rule to go to age based was safety, get the older versus younger kids issue off the board and do single year age based teams by rule. Ice hockey did this same thing long before soccer for the same reasons, and concussion rates in sanctioned leagues events went down substantially following that.

Lacrosse has two problems. First, growth rate of head injuries and the growth rate of soft tissue injuries at a greater rate of growth than any other sport in the last decade. The first we have to blame on the way the game is played and not the equipment, the second may or may not be a casualty of sports specialization and overuse syndrome injuries. These growth rates are also highest at the youth levels with less physically mature and developed players. Second, we don't know what the growth rate from six months ago is yet because there isn't enough data to make any valid conclusions. The advocates of grade based teams are correct, you can't prove that lacrosse is less safe today because of grade based teams and moreover last year there were age based teams with two year spreads. So the argument that a holdback kid 18 months older is moot since we used to have U-11, U-13 and U-15. Thus grade based teams could not be any less safe than a year ago and according to the birth tables and rules that say you can't reclassify over and over again because players over the age of 19 are not allowed to play high school sports. Just my opinion that those are not BAD arguments, but they are also not GOOD arguments in support of grade based club or recreation lacrosse.

What isn't an opinion but is a fact is that soccer and ice hockey rules bodies realized after pouring over data that single year teams are better than two-year bracket age groups for these youth contact sports and that single year age based teams are best practices. If we can accept soccer and ice hockey as a model -- and some of us again argue against that -- then lacrosse eventually goes that way. Clearly US Lacrosse pushed it and for now the club and recreation leagues pushed back and we have grade based club and recreation lacrosse leagues. For now there isn't injury rate data in yet to denounce the grade based system, and quite possibly with the prior system of two-year spread age based teams it may very well be impossible to have any looking backwards data that says "here, lacrosse is so much more unsafe today over a few years ago"...the best hope for those who want age based is that relative to ice hockey and soccer, that lacrosse is trending higher and higher with head trauma injuries, therefore there is a relative data set to make the argument from. Again just my opinion, but I do see that happening and weakening the grade based system to a point where clubs and recreation leagues will need to go to U-8, U-9, U-10, etc. My argument is that lacrosse is not a large or mature enough sport to come to its own fair bargains, and it also has a very weak governing body in US Lacrosse, so the time it will take to sort this out with safety data versus other comparible head impact trauma risk sports like soccer and ice hockey in the years to come. I don't see this happening anytime soon because the science needs years of data with cases of head injuries to make a different conclusion.


Nicely well thought out. Like you I think a single age base team is best for Lacrosse like soccer. Maryland had no reason not to go age base teams besides accommodating these select group of holdbacks. And in non hotbed areas 2 year age based teams are best. Frankly besides isn't fair play what we constantly teach our kids at the youth level. Once you get to HS it is a different world as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)


Everybody will stop whinning when the Crabs stop telling us how good they are with a team that is loaded with holdbacks. It is an issue that the Crabs favor and the majority of lacrosse parents think is unfair at the youth level.


Every club has the same rules. please whine on the Age verification forum.



No Ryan.. The Crabs are the MIAA holdbacks club of choice. Due to you and a few other clubs that get this advantage we have grade based teams instead of a U9,U10,U11, etc.You are the type of person that gives youth sports a reputation of being disgusting to many people not only in the lacrosse sport but many out of sports. When they look at this and see an advantage gained by a select few along with Crabs getting a large share of these holdbacks,, no wonder average joe thinks of sports in a low way. I bet you are one of those that tells non sports people that you honor the game of lacrosse..


Exactly. The Crabs are the holdbacks club of choice. Not necessarily vice versa. Should Crabs not offer these kids spots? Crabs just changed to all grade based teams this year.

Jesus. If your kid can't handle playing against someone 5 months older pull him from lax and let him be a cub scout.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So are the Crabs doing any indoor leagues? (Please stop whining about ages or move it to a different forum)


Everybody will stop whinning when the Crabs stop telling us how good they are with a team that is loaded with holdbacks. It is an issue that the Crabs favor and the majority of lacrosse parents think is unfair at the youth level.


Every club has the same rules. please whine on the Age verification forum.



No Ryan.. The Crabs are the MIAA holdbacks club of choice. Due to you and a few other clubs that get this advantage we have grade based teams instead of a U9,U10,U11, etc.You are the type of person that gives youth sports a reputation of being disgusting to many people not only in the lacrosse sport but many out of sports. When they look at this and see an advantage gained by a select few along with Crabs getting a large share of these holdbacks,, no wonder average joe thinks of sports in a low way. I bet you are one of those that tells non sports people that you honor the game of lacrosse..


Exactly. The Crabs are the holdbacks club of choice. Not necessarily vice versa. Should Crabs not offer these kids spots? Crabs just changed to all grade based teams this year.

Jesus. If your kid can't handle playing against someone 5 months older pull him from lax and let him be a cub scout.


It is vice a versa..Are you that dense?? Crabs along with a couple other clubs were the major proponents of going grade base. Now follow this, that means that they want the holdbacks and were expecting them.

Your point is well taken that the Crabs were doing just fine with age based teams. But in last few years there has been an explosion in the amount of better quality teams like the Crabs. Crabs have a great reputation and are the club of choice for many MIAA kids. Going Grade base gives Crabs an upper hand in teams with the older kids at U13 and below. Pretty easy to see why Ryan would want grade base.If not grade base Crabs are competing for same age players and there are many more options at youth level than Crabs.

Lacrosse could use a few cub scouts but Scouts would change it back to age base. They think competition should be on an equal playing field, not letting a select group of kids get an advantage.

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Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.


We were never asked about a birth date and it was never mentioned in our recruiting experience with a 2017. Our 2017 is not a holdback. One school did suggest reclassifying and we shot that down immediately because he is a good student. That no coach asked also does not impress much on me since the recruiting process always begins with an online recruit info sheet which includes grades, scores d.o.b among other things. I don't think college coaches really care if these kids are 15 or 25 as HS freshmen.

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Why would any club owner or league director have a problem with birth year teams? It is the easiest and most simple thing to implement and follow, and it doesn't interfere with anyone's appetites to reclassify and play prep school lacrosse as a year older kid in a grade. A 16 year old can still be a 2018, but he will play U-16 for club. That creates a crisis for the kid ?!?

If NCAA coaches want kids older, an age based club system won't stop them from going after kids who repeat middle school grades, do a post grad boarding school year. Or fancy this, why don't all these kids and NCAA coaches who agree they need to be a year bigger, stronger or whatever just go to college and redshirt a year at the parental expense? Lacrosse scholarships aren't much $$$ anyways. What would make your son a better lacrosse player, being a 19 year old HS senior beating down on 15 and 16 year olds or being a 19 year old college program redshirt practice player? In terms of the best lacrosse decision it is the second.

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Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.


We were never asked about a birth date and it was never mentioned in our recruiting experience with a 2017. Our 2017 is not a holdback. One school did suggest reclassifying and we shot that down immediately because he is a good student. That no coach asked also does not impress much on me since the recruiting process always begins with an online recruit info sheet which includes grades, scores d.o.b among other things. I don't think college coaches really care if these kids are 15 or 25 as HS freshmen.


Son is a 2018, had 4 visits, 2 more to come and has 3 offers.
NOT ONE ASKED HIS AGE!!!!!

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Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.


We were never asked about a birth date and it was never mentioned in our recruiting experience with a 2017. Our 2017 is not a holdback. One school did suggest reclassifying and we shot that down immediately because he is a good student. That no coach asked also does not impress much on me since the recruiting process always begins with an online recruit info sheet which includes grades, scores d.o.b among other things. I don't think college coaches really care if these kids are 15 or 25 as HS freshmen.


Son is a 2018, had 4 visits, 2 more to come and has 3 offers.
NOT ONE ASKED HIS AGE!!!!!


My 2024 had 5 visits, 3 more to come and has 4 offers. Nobody asked his age, but twice we were asked if he likes Skittles more than M&Ms. UVa players took him to Dave & Busters. It was awesome!!!!!

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College coaches actually prefer them being older.
THEY don't have to red shirt them

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Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.


We were never asked about a birth date and it was never mentioned in our recruiting experience with a 2017. Our 2017 is not a holdback. One school did suggest reclassifying and we shot that down immediately because he is a good student. That no coach asked also does not impress much on me since the recruiting process always begins with an online recruit info sheet which includes grades, scores d.o.b among other things. I don't think college coaches really care if these kids are 15 or 25 as HS freshmen.


Son is a 2018, had 4 visits, 2 more to come and has 3 offers.
NOT ONE ASKED HIS AGE!!!!!


My 2024 had 5 visits, 3 more to come and has 4 offers. Nobody asked his age, but twice we were asked if he likes Skittles more than M&Ms. UVa players took him to Dave & Busters. It was awesome!!!!!

Really I wanted to get real answers thanks for the guy who answered my question. As for the Jerk and the Skittles joke guy be happy your son made the high school team maybe he will letter?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ok let me ask everyone a question? When your son was being recurited did they ask for his birthday anytime during the process? I am thinking they do. I think the college scouts are smart enough to tell if a kid is good or just older. And if they are not they will learn to be if they get burned enough. So I do not think its that big of a advantage. The safety issue I can see. But the only real way to fix that at the youth level is do weight ins like football. I have seen kids way young be way huge. I have seen kids play lacrosse because they where to big to play youth football.


We were never asked about a birth date and it was never mentioned in our recruiting experience with a 2017. Our 2017 is not a holdback. One school did suggest reclassifying and we shot that down immediately because he is a good student. That no coach asked also does not impress much on me since the recruiting process always begins with an online recruit info sheet which includes grades, scores d.o.b among other things. I don't think college coaches really care if these kids are 15 or 25 as HS freshmen.


Son is a 2018, had 4 visits, 2 more to come and has 3 offers.
NOT ONE ASKED HIS AGE!!!!!


My 2024 had 5 visits, 3 more to come and has 4 offers. Nobody asked his age, but twice we were asked if he likes Skittles more than M&Ms. UVa players took him to Dave & Busters. It was awesome!!!!!

Really I wanted to get real answers thanks for the guy who answered my question. As for the Jerk and the Skittles joke guy be happy your son made the high school team maybe he will letter?


Lighten up. Pretty sure he was not being an [lacrosse] about the original question. Think he was responding to the poster who seems to be most proud of his 2018 with 3 offers.

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