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Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
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My son also has this helmet and got a concussion. However, in his case no helmet would have stopped it. He was hit in the head by a cheap shot unavoidable cross check. His teammate also was hit by a goalie charging out of the cage with his head down like a raging bull. I think coaches should teach the game of lacrosse and not football. I also think refs should take a serious look at these hits and determine a punishment greater than a 2 minute unreleasable penalty. I would hope cascade and warrior didn't fudge their data and if stx is doing this for marketing, then shame on them.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


No helmet can prevent concussions. It's not physiologically possible. The issue with the R has nothing to do with concussion protection.

The human brain is suspended in fluid inside the skull. Concussions happen when the motion of the head is suddenly and violently stopped, allowing the brain to slam into the skull. It's physics and no helmet can protect against that. Perhaps the padding in the helmet can provide some cushion, thereby reducing some of the force of the stop in motion, but it's minimal at best.

The primary function of a helmet is to keep your face and head intact.

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Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817
email: Mike.Oliver@NOCSAE.ORG

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Anyone else wonder why the manufacturer's are allowed to self-certify? What is the purpose of NOCSEA? Something seems not quite right.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son also has this helmet and got a concussion. However, in his case no helmet would have stopped it. He was hit in the head by a cheap shot unavoidable cross check. His teammate also was hit by a goalie charging out of the cage with his head down like a raging bull. I think coaches should teach the game of lacrosse and not football. I also think refs should take a serious look at these hits and determine a punishment greater than a 2 minute unreleasable penalty. I would hope cascade and warrior didn't fudge their data and if stx is doing this for marketing, then shame on them.


Your son would have gotten a concussion no matter what helmet he was wearing unfortunately. Its almost a proven fact that its the hit or receiving the hit that is the cause not the helmet. My son has had a concussion and he was wearing a CPX_R helmet.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817
email: Mike.Oliver@NOCSAE.ORG


He is quoted extensively in both of the 24 Seven Lax posts. If there were no issues one would think Cascade and Warrior would have lawyered up to get some kind of injunction put in place. The fact that they immediately went to the "we're working on a resolution" instead of fighting it leads me to believe maybe there is something there.

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Check the thread on laxpower about this topic. Interesting information including links to non-profit reporting docs for NOCSEA.

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I've heard and read in several places that we should go to a retailer and "swap" out the R helmet for a certified one. Doesn't this simply mean, go BUY a new helmet? What retailer is going to give me $275 credit for a used R? Or even the $200 that it will take to buy CPX-R or similar bucket. Why do they keep using "swap"?

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Thanks for your response. I totally agree. This is what I don't get with the helmets certification No helmet is concussion proof. So basically every helmet will fail. It makes no sense how a certain helmet passes 100% while it's competition fails 100%. Also I think NOCSAE should bear the responsibility on this. Basically they tell manufacturer pay for our sticker and we will approve your tests. With everything in the last year regarding head injuries, they are opening themselves up to some serious credibility issues. I can't believe they wouldn't test independently from manufacturer.

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In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.

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Cascade posted an update on their Instagram.. Looks like a solution in a couple more days.

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817

I shot an email to this guy when it first was announced. I questioned whether the CPX-R was included in the reclassification. He responded within minutes. But I sent a reply back as to the specifics of why they are no longer good and he never replied

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Cascade posted an update on their Instagram.. Looks like a solution in a couple more days.


I'm not sure I trust the whole process. Certification is useless unless it is completely independent.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817

I shot an email to this guy when it first was announced. I questioned whether the CPX-R was included in the reclassification. He responded within minutes. But I sent a reply back as to the specifics of why they are no longer good and he never replied


Thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.

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I registered with Cascade on their website and yesterday received an email update. They say they are working with NOSCAE on testing a retrofit to existing R helmets that would make them compliant. For what it is worth Cascade says they are "confident a solution will be announced in the coming days."

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


One other thing that will be interesting is that there are plenty of 7,8,9 year olds that are wearing R's that shouldn't be because their heads are too small. I see it all the time, daddy has to buy them the coolest helmet. I would assume that those will not be able to be fitted and they will have to get a new helmet until their head grows a bit.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


One other thing that will be interesting is that there are plenty of 7,8,9 year olds that are wearing R's that shouldn't be because their heads are too small. I see it all the time, daddy has to buy them the coolest helmet. I would assume that those will not be able to be fitted and they will have to get a new helmet until their head grows a bit.


No problem here.....my kid is Irish.

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THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT THIS HELMET WAS NOT CERTIFIED. Doesn't matter if your son would have gotten a concussion with another helmet. He was using an R, which was not certified.

This is a manufacturer's defect - whether it was the wrong brochure, a sticker or a design problem. It doesn't matter. This is called product liability or strict liability. Cascade is making a big mistake by telling everyone it's just a paperwork problem.

That's why there are so many medical device class action suits. If something is defective, and you suffer an injury while using it, you are entitled to damages. Haven't you seen the ads on day time TV?

Getting a concussion and missing school does not prove damages. But if you had to take time off from work to get your son to the doctor and medical treatment and therapy, then you will be able to show your losses. If Cascade has acted badly in all of this (like falsifying test results or purposely trying to skimp by using an existing brochure), then they could be liable for a whole lot more.



Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.


No helmet can prevent concussions. It's not physiologically possible. The issue with the R has nothing to do with concussion protection.

The human brain is suspended in fluid inside the skull. Concussions happen when the motion of the head is suddenly and violently stopped, allowing the brain to slam into the skull. It's physics and no helmet can protect against that. Perhaps the padding in the helmet can provide some cushion, thereby reducing some of the force of the stop in motion, but it's minimal at best.

The primary function of a helmet is to keep your face and head intact.

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Just received this from Loyola... I think the issue is being addressed on whether or not these helmets will be used this coming season.

--

In the past week we have learned that the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator helmet do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standards.

Since learning this news, our men’s lacrosse staff has been trying to get clarity on how these new rules apply to high school sports. Yesterday we were informed from our lacrosse officials union that no lacrosse official will officiate a lacrosse game, at any level (youth, high school, college, pro) where players are using either the Cascade Model R or Warrior Regulator helmet.

NOCSAE’s decision to disallow the use of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator is definitely an inconvenience on all fronts, and we apologize greatly for getting this message out so last minute, however, we were only informed of the affect on high school players yesterday. Please know that we are working hard to potentially have helmets for purchase here tomorrow, but we cannot guarantee that option, at this point. Your best plan of action is to borrow or purchase another model helmet (Warrior T-2, Cascade CPX just to name a few) prior to attending prospect camp tomorrow.

Because this is not a US Lacrosse sanctioned event tomorrow, the officials may not even make it an issue. However, we would like to be proactive and make sure that nothing alters the great day we have planned for the kids. Thanks very much for your help and understanding in this manner.
Respectfully,

Loyola Lacrosse Staff

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Just received this from Loyola... I think the issue is being addressed on whether or not these helmets will be used this coming season.

--

In the past week we have learned that the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator helmet do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standards.

Since learning this news, our men’s lacrosse staff has been trying to get clarity on how these new rules apply to high school sports. Yesterday we were informed from our lacrosse officials union that no lacrosse official will officiate a lacrosse game, at any level (youth, high school, college, pro) where players are using either the Cascade Model R or Warrior Regulator helmet.

NOCSAE’s decision to disallow the use of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator is definitely an inconvenience on all fronts, and we apologize greatly for getting this message out so last minute, however, we were only informed of the affect on high school players yesterday. Please know that we are working hard to potentially have helmets for purchase here tomorrow, but we cannot guarantee that option, at this point. Your best plan of action is to borrow or purchase another model helmet (Warrior T-2, Cascade CPX just to name a few) prior to attending prospect camp tomorrow.

Because this is not a US Lacrosse sanctioned event tomorrow, the officials may not even make it an issue. However, we would like to be proactive and make sure that nothing alters the great day we have planned for the kids. Thanks very much for your help and understanding in this manner.
Respectfully,

Loyola Lacrosse Staff


Bravo Loyola. That is a straight shooting, honest and candid response given the current conditions.

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For the life of me I don't understand why given these circumstances Cascade doesn't just eat it all the way down to their cost at no profit to give anyone who is a Cascade R owner a voucher to pay like $80 for a CPX? Sure they'd sell a lot of CPXs at no profit and a lot of their customers would now have two helmets, but offering customers a less expensive short term solution is the very least they could do. Hold on tight bids for time are really bothersome to this family owner of three Rs. If I am paying retail for a helmet now, might as well make it an STX and that is a sad thing to come to as past Cascade fan and client.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.


Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.


I understand what pharma does, however the reporting, standards and protocol is very detailed in pharma and fines steep. Trials are conducted over the course of about 8-15 years for new therapies. The FDA scrutinizes data and sometimes requires additional testing. NOSCEA basically sells a seal to manufacturers who claim compliance. Obviously they are NOT conducting much "random testing" or they certainly would have tested these helmets since they came out, the R is obviously one of the most commonly worn helmets or this would be a non-issue. NOSCEA didn't bother to test when the helmets were found faulty by Purdue study. The ONLY reason any consumer now knows that the helmets are not compliant is because of STX. While I am a proponent of free market corrections, this is unacceptable as NOSCEA has offered a seal, which to the average consumer, seems to confer that the organization issuing the seal stands behind the safety of the product. NOCSEA should not issue seals if they have no idea if a product is compliant.

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Purdue and Lynchburg College have been doing a lot of recent research:

Force Attenuation Of New And Used Lacrosse Helmets
All of the helmets (Cascade Pro7, Cascade CPXR) passed the NOCSAE standard suggesting they can still adequately attenuate blows to the head, even after 3 years of use without reconditioning.

-GOOD NEWS for old Cascade helmets.

Force Attenuation Of Football And Lacrosse Helmets
Force attenuation capability, measured by GSI, varied across helmet models according to drop location after accounting for differences in sport. Overall, football helmets performed better than lacrosse helmets, and we found a wide variety of GSI scores among the different brands within each sport. Although lacrosse helmets are manufactured for a different athletic context, it may be possible for aspects of football helmet technology to be adapted to lacrosse helmets in the future in order to improve force attenuation performance.

- Not so good, but does Lacrosse need Football level protection?

Characteristics Of Football Helmets Associated With The Incidence Of Sport Related Concussion In High School Football Players
A total of 204 players (8.9%) sustained 208 SRC causing them to miss a median of14 (10.1,20.2) days. There was no difference (p = 0.773) in the incidence of SRC [SRC/ helmets, (%: 95% CI)] for players wearing Riddell [108/1172 (9.2%: 7.7,11.1)], Schutt [56/678 (8.3%: 6.4,10.7)], Xenith [40/438 (9.1%: 6.7,12.3)] helmets. There was no difference (p = 0.365) in the incidence of SRC for helmets that were used for their first and second seasons, [47/463, 10.2%: 7.6,13.4)], third and fourth seasons, (72/904, 8.0%: 6.3,10.0) or five or more seasons (83/895, 9.3%: 7.5,11.0). There was no difference (p = 0.249), in the severity of SRC for players wearing Riddell [13.0: 9.0,19.0], Schutt [14.0: 10.5,23.0] and Xenith [14.5: 11.8,19.0] helmets. There was no difference (p = 0.239) in the severity of SRC for helmets that were used in their first and second seasons [16.0: 11.0,19.5], third and fourth seasons [12.0: 8.0,21.0] or five or more seasons [13.5: 10.0,19.0].
Conclusions: Despite manufacturer’s claims, there was no difference in the incidence or severity of SRC based on the helmet brand or helmet age. ATs need to be aware that factors other than the type of football helmet may affect the risk of high school players sustaining a SRC.

- So all helmets (new, old, different brand) basically act the same in reducing concussions.

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As of Wednesday night, you could turn in your R's at any Lacrosse Unlimited and receive a $250 gift card. That may or maynot still be in place as everyday more positive news is coming out in Cascade's favor.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
As of Wednesday night, you could turn in your R's at any Lacrosse Unlimited and receive a $250 gift card. That may or maynot still be in place as everyday more positive news is coming out in Cascade's favor.


Not at our lacrosse unlimited local store. They told us to hold tight and this would be settled up soon. We never received any indication of a voucher or a gift card when we asked about refunds or exchanges. I don't believe that.

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I called Cascade yesterday and they told me to call Lacrosse Unlimited for an exchange since my son is doing box. They even told me which one to call - local store. the manager of Lacrosse Unlimited said they were instructed by the President of Cascade not to do any exchanges. They were in the process of working something out.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
For the life of me I don't understand why given these circumstances Cascade doesn't just eat it all the way down to their cost at no profit to give anyone who is a Cascade R owner a voucher to pay like $80 for a CPX? Sure they'd sell a lot of CPXs at no profit and a lot of their customers would now have two helmets, but offering customers a less expensive short term solution is the very least they could do. Hold on tight bids for time are really bothersome to this family owner of three Rs. If I am paying retail for a helmet now, might as well make it an STX and that is a sad thing to come to as past Cascade fan and client.


http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

"Until such time as Cascade and Warrior undergo and pass a NOCSAE independent quality audit directed by the Safety Equipment Institute or SEI, they are effectively shut down when it comes to helmets. Steve Jones, the Senior Director of Corporate Communications at Performance Sports Group spoke on behalf of Cascade and confirmed that they are not currently shipping any helmets. Replacements for the model R helmet from Cascade will have to come from what is currently available in the retail market."

With 48 hour custom shipping direct from Cascade, there isn't a lot of inventory in the retail market.

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Interesting that this topic is now in the NY times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/06/s...on=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

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"Until such time as Cascade and Warrior undergo and pass a NOCSAE independent quality audit directed by the Safety Equipment Institute or SEI, they are effectively shut down when it comes to helmets. Steve Jones, the Senior Director of Corporate Communications at Performance Sports Group spoke on behalf of Cascade and confirmed that they are not currently shipping any helmets. Replacements for the model R helmet from Cascade will have to come from what is currently available in the retail market."

Are we to take this as a suggestion that teh CPX is the next one on the NOCSAE chop block? I'd have guessed they'd be storming the market with the older helmets if they are certified.

With 48 hour custom shipping direct from Cascade, there isn't a lot of inventory in the retail market. [/quote]

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Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...


I'd have waiting a little longer, but I think we'd end up in the same place. I'm hoping not, though. I'm sure the CPX is next on the de-cert list and Cascade's integrity is shot IMO. If helmets weren't so expensive, I'd jump to another company in a heartbeat. But alas, I have to wait in the hopes I won't have to drop $200+ on another bucket.

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This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096

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You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Gee, you don't think I asked for that at LU ?!? No refunds, no vouchers and certainly no price other than what it costs to buy another helmet and more of the same...hold tight, this is a paperwork problem only, and any day now it will be resolved. Rinse and repeat. If Cascade were an automaker they'd be out of business.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096


Now given this, how in good conscience could Cascade be feeding the retail channel with some story about how this is all linked to the paperwork or the instruction manual which was not updated from the CPX to the R? Did that NOCSAE guy speaking sound like this was no big deal and is going to be straightened out soon? No. In a word he said at some fitted ranges taking impact wearing this helmet will result in fractured skull which would be prevented if the helmet was conforming to the certification standards.

It's over. Bye bye Cascade.

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Very grey area. There's not much helmet to helmet contact (thank god ). When there is , no question all lacrosse helmets lack any concussion protection. If they use helmets similar to football , I believe that would increase the number of head to head collisions. Some will use it as a weapon. What do you do ?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!


They don't have a choice. In the very least, you were sold a product that was not as it was represented, if not worse. Demand an immediate exchange. Any retailer that doesn't oblige you is irresponsible at best.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.


Gee, you don't think I asked for that at LU ?!? No refunds, no vouchers and certainly no price other than what it costs to buy another helmet and more of the same...hold tight, this is a paperwork problem only, and any day now it will be resolved. Rinse and repeat. If Cascade were an automaker they'd be out of business.


Walk into LU, call the cascade toll free number on their website, ask them if they are still honoring the $250 credit, when they tell you yes, put the manager of the store on the phone with them. you'll get you credit.

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