Get it on Google Play
Get it on Google Play
4 Spots Left for the Boys UnD1sputed Showcase! | 1 Month Away from the Girls LI Showcase - Limited Spots Available!
BACK OF THE CAGE
MOST RECENT POSTS
Girls 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
by Anonymous - 05/05/21 07:50 PM
Girls 2024-9th Grade Fall 2020/Summer 2021
by Anonymous - 05/05/21 07:43 PM
Boys 2026-7th Grade Fall 2020/Summer 2021
by Anonymous - 05/05/21 05:41 PM
Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
by Anonymous - 05/05/21 05:15 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums20
Topics2,352
Posts290,080
Members2,285
Most Online62,980
Feb 6th, 2020
SUBSCRIBE


FOLLOW US ON TWITTER
Previous Thread
Next Thread
New Reply
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 3 of 22 1 2 3 4 5 21 22
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96738 11/26/14 09:12 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/


It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.


...and "your helmet failed...but we are not releasing some of the test results on some of OUR helmets". Wonder why that is.
Article is a good read.
Think everyone just needs to take a breath here...


Thank you for this article. Whatever position or loyalty people have here, that article is fair and takes a grim position on STX's influences before the release of their helmet. On reflection I really am stunned if it is the case that Cascade and Warrior each have conducted contaminated quality testing, especially considering each use independent third party labs to do the ongoing testing of their products. Cascade has always been a very pro-active company on the safety front, and the article is fair to point out that Cascade originally FUNDED the NOCSAE study from which these standards are set. The Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator by their specs are certified conforming helmets. Neither is being made differently from the time they were originally tested to be certified.

So all in a day BOTH brands are running faulty quality testing at DIFFERENT independent labs (and in Cascade's instance two outside labs are used) and this SAME DAY is only days after STX/Shutt's flashy coming out? AND this SAME DAY is the start of the same week as the largest on-line retail week of the calendar year? I started thinking that once again the lacrosse brands have screwed up, and this negative press is well deserved. After reading that article I have a lot more restraint and am eyes wide open along with everyone else. What data were STX looking at, and what data were NOCSAE looking at and did this data conflict with other independent lab tests which passed the Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator? The consumer deserves to know. The FDA doesn't tell us a food is unsafe for no reason. NOCSAE needs to come out transparent on this now.

In other news, Lee Harvey Oswald killed Tupac. The Cubs just won their third World Series, and Ty Xanders is leaving lacrosse journalism to pursue a degree at Oxford on the Rhodes Scholarship.

Like Reply Quote
BACK OF THE CAGE SPONSORS

Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96739 11/26/14 09:15 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Shades of WMDs in Iraq. We were told they were there. No pictures or physical evidence of them but they were supposed to be there. Hey STX, show us the data behind those flashy ads. They help your position, right?

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96743 11/26/14 09:27 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.


Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96753 11/26/14 10:22 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
If anyone has an STX helmet, can you please weigh it and post that weight? I am curious how much heavier than the Cascade. If the STX is 30% or 50% better on impact protection but is heavier, I would tell my sons to get used to wearing a heavier helmet. I hate the trend of skimpier lacrosse gear in favor of fashion. You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96761 11/26/14 11:02 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.



Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.

Like Reply Quote
Sponsored Links
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96781 11/26/14 12:02 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96783 11/26/14 12:06 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.


It shows there is a huge issue with the NOCSAE if helmets that were fine for 2 years are now not certified.

Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96791 11/26/14 12:30 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.


Sorry to nitpick on a good post, but football helmets are not safe. Lots of flap these days in the NFL about concussion issues and how negative helmet safety data has been suppressed by the league and helmet manufacturers. STX partnered with Schutt, a football helmet manufacturer, to make the new helmet. Connecting the dots, you might conclude that this whole corporate warfare episode was orchestrated by Schutt.

Lots of questionable credibility here on the part of STX, Schutt and the NOCSAE. Perhaps Jonathan Gruber is advising on this deal and thinks the lacrosse consumer is stupid.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96792 11/26/14 12:34 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.



Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.


Cascade and Warrior are in a tough spot and can't move alone in responding to the decertification. What they say, how they say and when they say can be a huge legal liability for them. Radio silence is probably their only choice right now.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96803 11/26/14 01:46 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
STX's test results, which they commissioned, are here (note, its a large pdf, I wouldn't try to read it a smart phone):

http://www.stx.com/helmet/assets/pd...formational_Report_Web_Release_10714.pdf

In short, it isn't a technical issue, but one of a failing helmet (impacts too severe). That said, it could very well be that the Cascade and Warrior weren't fit properly or some other odd reason. I have an R and I bought for my son for Xmas. At least I can return his for a full refund if Cascade doesn't come through.


Like Reply Quote
Sponsored Links
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96899 11/26/14 11:36 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
I have a lot of respect for Cascade. I showed up on Cascade's doorstep unannounced one summer day and was given a full tour of their facility by one of their top designers. They could have easily told me that their are no tours or gift shop or company store and given me a list of local shops and sent me on my way. Instead, one of their top designers gave me an extensive tour of their manufacturing, design, and testing facilities - which I will never forget. Having seen their testing capabilities and the results of those tests, I have no doubt they are making the safest helmets possible. Something is really rotten here if Cascade takes a financial hit over some marketing ploy by another company.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
LAXDADDY32 #96910 11/27/14 08:19 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Cascade fan or not the post earlier with the lab analysis is pretty damning. I rather doubt an independent lab would knowingly taint the testing baseline for helmets by strapping them on incorrectly inviting variance and taint to the results, but I could be wrong. What dog does two independent labs with their own reputations on the line have to gain in doing that or going along with an STX ploy? This is a really hard issue, and again I repeat my disappointment that silence is reigning at Cascade. Their company and reputation are on the line and time is an enemy. They at least need to go on record to dispute these lab tests or acknowledge them and state they will fix in days not weeks. This is no time the lawyer time, despite those liabilities the business mortal risk is a greater liability. After all, is Cascade makes great helmets like I believe they do and this is an administrative or testing environment taint matter just state a position.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96911 11/27/14 08:39 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Got email from Lacrosse Unlimited:

Taking pre-orders for Cascade's R for delivery after production resumes.

"Lacrosse Unlimited believes that the current Cascade R will be re-certified in the near future"

For what its worth...

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96918 11/27/14 10:18 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit


If your child sustained ANY type of head injury while wearing the R or Warrior helmet you have the right to be very angry. You also should contact an attorney NOW.

Like Reply Quote
Re: Cascade R helmets not certified
Anonymous #96933 11/27/14 12:52 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Cascade has taken a position and dispute the decertification; go to their site: cascadelacrosse.com They're working on it and even asking R owners to register their helmet serial numbers and providing emailed updates. Here's the verbiage:

The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) has announced that the Cascade R model lacrosse helmet no longer complies with NOCSAE standard ND041 and that Cascade's certification of compliance on that helmet model only is invalid. All other Cascade models in the field are certified.

We are working with NOCSAE to clarify the concerns and appropriately address the issue. However, our first priority is always our loyal Cascade players.

Players not in immediate need of a certified helmet are encouraged to retain their helmet. Cascade is confident that we will be able to re-certify the helmet and that recertification could be a simple fix. We expect to communicate all available remedies as soon as possible, once approved by NOCSAE.

We will communicate with you through the email you provided here as updates become available and ultimately any next steps you will need to take to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.


REGISTER YOUR R HELMET HERE: R.CascadeLacrosse.com

If you have any questions you can always phone Customer Service at 800.537.1702.

We are communicating the following information to players and coaches:
If you are a player that owns an R helmet and are not using it until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks, we will have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

If you are a team that has R helmets and do not need to use them until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks we have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

If you are a player that owns an R helmet and has games in November/Early December but do not own or have access to another certified helmet, call Cascade Customer Service at 800.537.1702. We can assist in connecting you with your preferred participating to understand if they have the ability to fit you with a certified helmet.

If you are a team that owns R helmets and has games in November/Early December but do not have another certified helmet solution, please contact Cascade customer service at 800.537.1702 and we will do our best to find a lacrosse retailer to support your needs.

Detailed instructions on necessary steps will be made available on our web site www.CascadeLacrosse.com and provided to all relevant governing bodies as soon as they become available.

It is important to note that the Cascade R model has passed applicable NOCSAE standards at two separate, independent, NOCSAE-accredited test labs commissioned by the Company.

We apologize for the confusion and disruption caused by the recent announcement. We know you have trusted Cascade and our products for more than 28 years and we will do everything in our power to ensure that trust remains for many years to come.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse

Like Reply Quote
Page 3 of 22 1 2 3 4 5 21 22
Quick Reply

Options
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4