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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

I'm going to start a petition that supports the face-off change. How many do you think would support that? Bam!


If you started a petition to eliminate the face off from the game it would most likely get about the same amount of signatures as this pathetic petition against a rule change that is intended to and will improve the game.


You are an a$$. No way around it. get a life, hope I am fortunate enough never to cross your path again.


No I agree with him. Might get more attention then rule changes. Many people want to do away with it all together. Someone spearhead that petition.


Someone please spearhead you, annoying gnat. What's the matter, you can't start the petition yourself because you are a little worm who hides behind his computer?

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
"I'm going to start a petition that supports the face-off change. How many do you think would support that? Bam! "

Bam is what's going to happen to you when you start that position and we find who your sorry [lacrosse] is. Probably a loser whose scrub son rides the bench. Don't you realize that getting rid of a fogo will not get your kid any playing time? Only a jealous loser would make a comment like that!


Hey knuckle dragger, read closely if you can, the post was suggesting support of the change, not doing away with the fogo.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
"I'm going to start a petition that supports the face-off change. How many do you think would support that? Bam! "

Bam is what's going to happen to you when you start that position and we find who your sorry [lacrosse] is. Probably a loser whose scrub son rides the bench. Don't you realize that getting rid of a fogo will not get your kid any playing time? Only a jealous loser would make a comment like that!


Hey knuckle dragger, read closely if you can, the post was suggesting support of the change, not doing away with the fogo.



Sorry bro!! Just sick of fending off the nay-sayers! Me-BAD!!

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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REAL Sports change rules about equipment specs, throw up white flags to the best competition.
Micky Mouse rules

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Originally Posted by Anonymous


The issue is using the stick in a manner that gives a player an unfair advantage. Widen the head of the stick by a quarter inch at the mouth, and regulate stringing and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



THIS ^ is the point. Calls in the hockey stick curvature rule, "Stickum" on wide receivers gloves, plaster in boxing gloves,PED's, corked bats etc.

FOGO if it is kept as is; needs to be regulated with respect to uniformity of head width; ball retention with inversion of stick head, thickness of stringing used to narrow head width and possible other factors.

A stick check before, during and after games with a stamp or seal of the official's approval of the above parameters would satisfy me.

Then go ahead and attempt your pinch and pop all day. The best FO guy will win based on ability, and not equipment modification which we all know to be the case. If you try to state otherwise; you are lying to yourself and us.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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I propose no more long poles, against the spirit of the game. It's cheating and needs to be stopped!!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


The issue is using the stick in a manner that gives a player an unfair advantage. Widen the head of the stick by a quarter inch at the mouth, and regulate stringing and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



THIS ^ is the point. Calls in the hockey stick curvature rule, "Stickum" on wide receivers gloves, plaster in boxing gloves,PED's, corked bats etc.

FOGO if it is kept as is; needs to be regulated with respect to uniformity of head width; ball retention with inversion of stick head, thickness of stringing used to narrow head width and possible other factors.

A stick check before, during and after games with a stamp or seal of the official's approval of the above parameters would satisfy me.

Then go ahead and attempt your pinch and pop all day. The best FO guy will win based on ability, and not equipment modification which we all know to be the case. If you try to state otherwise; you are lying to yourself and us.


Please, my kid plays pinch and pop with off the shelf head from lax unlimited, strung by them. No secret formula, no special sauce...You think the 10-15 year olds are modifying heads? Not that I have seen.

So, I am fine with your stick uniformity proposal/regulation. If it makes the small percentage of naysayers go worry about something else, I am all for it.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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WOW- you mean to say that if my 15 year old can win 90% of face offs, win every game for team, get noticed by college scouts, save me $$$$ by earning a scholarship...
Do you think he should train real hard... or just wait until all levels adopt rule change so he doesn't have to worry about all that extra hard work and stuff??

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I propose no more long poles, against the spirit of the game. It's cheating and needs to be stopped!!


I think something also has to be done about the goalie position. My so won 90% of the face offs in a championship game but the goalie saved everything and we lost. Doesn't seem fair. I think the goalie head needs to be the same size as all the other players. I'm starting a petition.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
WOW- you mean to say that if my 15 year old can win 90% of face offs, win every game for team, get noticed by college scouts, save me $$$$ by earning a scholarship...
Do you think he should train real hard... or just wait until all levels adopt rule change so he doesn't have to worry about all that extra hard work and stuff??


Just tell everyone your son plays FOGO and not lacrosse because when they change the rules he can't adjust. My son doesn't like change.Rules are rules stop complaining all o you and grow up.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


The issue is using the stick in a manner that gives a player an unfair advantage. Widen the head of the stick by a quarter inch at the mouth, and regulate stringing and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



THIS ^ is the point. Calls in the hockey stick curvature rule, "Stickum" on wide receivers gloves, plaster in boxing gloves,PED's, corked bats etc.

FOGO if it is kept as is; needs to be regulated with respect to uniformity of head width; ball retention with inversion of stick head, thickness of stringing used to narrow head width and possible other factors.

A stick check before, during and after games with a stamp or seal of the official's approval of the above parameters would satisfy me.

Then go ahead and attempt your pinch and pop all day. The best FO guy will win based on ability, and not equipment modification which we all know to be the case. If you try to state otherwise; you are lying to yourself and us.


Please, my kid plays pinch and pop with off the shelf head from lax unlimited, strung by them. No secret formula, no special sauce...You think the 10-15 year olds are modifying heads? Not that I have seen.

So, I am fine with your stick uniformity proposal/regulation. If it makes the small percentage of naysayers go worry about something else, I am all for it.


Be proud your son is an exceptional athlete:). I mean FOGO . athlete might be a strong word for most of them. Hey at least he's not throwing the ball against the wall. Just work on his 20 yard sprint off the field. Relax just having fun with you and trying to make a point that your arguments to not change the rules are pretty lame.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I propose no more long poles, against the spirit of the game. It's cheating and needs to be stopped!!


I think something also has to be done about the goalie position. My so won 90% of the face offs in a championship game but the goalie saved everything and we lost. Doesn't seem fair. I think the goalie head needs to be the same size as all the other players. I'm starting a petition.


The face-off is not going away, so what is the purpose of this petition? Why are people so against a rule change that says you can't carry the ball in the back of the stick? By removing that technique you do not diminish the need for a great fogo.

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I have a serious question:

Did the rule committee consider that poles should not be aloud at the x if the new rule passes? In the "old days", before pinch and pop, poles were never seen at the x. Poles should only be aloud in the defensive end. what we will eventually see at the x, is two poles battling it out in a scrum, sloppy, disgusting, dangerous mess. There will be absolutely no skill involved because even if the ball is raked out by a skilled fogo, the pole will scoop it up. Having a pole at the x is an unfair advantage. Yet another example of not considering ramifications of an ill-sighted recommendation

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have a serious question:

Did the rule committee consider that poles should not be aloud at the x if the new rule passes? In the "old days", before pinch and pop, poles were never seen at the x. Poles should only be aloud in the defensive end. what we will eventually see at the x, is two poles battling it out in a scrum, sloppy, disgusting, dangerous mess. There will be absolutely no skill involved because even if the ball is raked out by a skilled fogo, the pole will scoop it up. Having a pole at the x is an unfair advantage. Yet another example of not considering ramifications of an ill-sighted recommendation


How is it an unfair advantage if both teams have a pole on the wings?

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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The way the LSM comes in swinging the pole it is a recipe for disaster. That is an area of concern. No one gets hurt by a pinch and pop.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have a serious question:

Did the rule committee consider that poles should not be aloud at the x if the new rule passes? In the "old days", before pinch and pop, poles were never seen at the x. Poles should only be aloud in the defensive end. what we will eventually see at the x, is two poles battling it out in a scrum, sloppy, disgusting, dangerous mess. There will be absolutely no skill involved because even if the ball is raked out by a skilled fogo, the pole will scoop it up. Having a pole at the x is an unfair advantage. Yet another example of not considering ramifications of an ill-sighted recommendation


How is it an unfair advantage if both teams have a pole on the wings?



I'm talking not just about that, but more importantly about a short stick vs. a pole at the x. The slashing injuries will be horrendous. A pole at the x is against the spirit of the x and provides an unfair advantage if the ball can not be carried cleanly out.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have a serious question:

Did the rule committee consider that poles should not be aloud at the x if the new rule passes? In the "old days", before pinch and pop, poles were never seen at the x. Poles should only be aloud in the defensive end. what we will eventually see at the x, is two poles battling it out in a scrum, sloppy, disgusting, dangerous mess. There will be absolutely no skill involved because even if the ball is raked out by a skilled fogo, the pole will scoop it up. Having a pole at the x is an unfair advantage. Yet another example of not considering ramifications of an ill-sighted recommendation


How is it an unfair advantage if both teams have a pole on the wings?


How is it unfair to have a P&P on both teams? Same argument, perhaps you have a long pole?

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have a serious question:

Did the rule committee consider that poles should not be aloud at the x if the new rule passes? In the "old days", before pinch and pop, poles were never seen at the x. Poles should only be aloud in the defensive end. what we will eventually see at the x, is two poles battling it out in a scrum, sloppy, disgusting, dangerous mess. There will be absolutely no skill involved because even if the ball is raked out by a skilled fogo, the pole will scoop it up. Having a pole at the x is an unfair advantage. Yet another example of not considering ramifications of an ill-sighted recommendation


How is it an unfair advantage if both teams have a pole on the wings?


How is it unfair to have a P&P on both teams? Same argument, perhaps you have a long pole?


No poles should be aloud at the x, against the spirit. Poles are for defense, need to stay there. I don't really have a problem with them if there is no rule change, even though they still provide an unfair advantage. If a kid does not have the opportunity to use his skill to obtain a clean win, there will be no more skill in the f/o just a slash fest between 2 poles. Not lacrosse.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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What do you mean in the old days? In the 80's and 90's they most certainly did have poles on the wings. 100% wrong on that one. Shorty sticks with their one handed swings slash way more dangerously.

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All sports evolve and their rules evolve too. I like the proposed change.

In baseball they change the height of the pitching mound
In football they introduce 2pt conversion and are toying with moving back the extra point

I like the proposed change I think the facoeff play should require higher engagement from the wings, be a ground ball battle and results should be closer to 50/50 on a regular basis

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[quote=Anonymous]What do you mean in the old days? In the 80's and 90's they most certainly did have poles on the wings. 100% wrong on that one. Shorty sticks with their one handed swings slash way more dangerously. [/quote

Poles were not used in the 800 at the x, not sure when it started. But should nor be aloud. Both players should use a short stick. There needs to be uniform equipment so the position comes down to skill.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
All sports evolve and their rules evolve too. I like the proposed change.

In baseball they change the height of the pitching mound
In football they introduce 2pt conversion and are toying with moving back the extra point

I like the proposed change I think the facoeff play should require higher engagement from the wings, be a ground ball battle and results should be closer to 50/50 on a regular basis


If you are looking for 50/50 then just award the ball to the team that was on defense at the last score..
Will push the game in the wrong direction IMO.

Fogo isn't going away. If you have them FO with spoons, there will still be a player that win 62-66% of the time and be better than the rest.

I like the FO crease suggestion, can adjust the size of the crease to see what works. Not too small like a goal crease, but not too large like the restraining box.
IMO a full shot clock will solve the supposed FO dilemma. I don't think there is a problem, but obviously some do.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Your wrong..played in the 80's at a top college and was on the wing for every faceoff. Get over your nonsense already.

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I think the crease or pop out before box are the best suggestions as well. It is a good place to start, and preserves the skill element. It may be enough. Small steps are always better than large. I am still shocked at how much hate and jealousy there is toward the FOGO. Fact is it is a real position that is here to stay. Forcing de-evolution is not what is needed. Tweaking some aspects is ok, and those who excel at the position at the D1 and pro level need to be involved in those conversations. And as for pinch and pop, my son is a successful face off man. He wins less than 50% with pinch and pop. That is also what I observe with other elite kids. That percentage is even less in college. It is a great move that is difficult to execute corrctly. It needs to be an option. A good face off man wins in many different ways, and that should be one. And for those saying that face off kids can't play, no fogo will last past the pinch and pop if they can't "play". They will be stripped of the ball by the wings if they don't have great stick skills and speed, have seen it to s of times. Kids that can win the clamp, but can't hold on to the ball.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Your wrong..played in the 80's at a top college and was on the wing for every faceoff. Get over your nonsense already.


We are talking about the actual guys facing off!!! NOT THE WING

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The fogo position should remain exactly as it is today with one small rule change. The ball cannot be carried at all in the back of the stick. If a single step is taken with the ball in the back of the stick it should be a turnover at that spot.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The fogo position should remain exactly as it is today with one small rule change. The ball cannot be carried at all in the back of the stick. If a single step is taken with the ball in the back of the stick it should be a turnover at that spot.


Why?

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Just one comment about all the concern for injuries - have you ever seen the college FOGO kids hobble off the field after taking a face off? I feel sorry for them. Some of them seem like they can hardly walk (I said some - not all). Today's College FOGOs probably started training for face offs during their High School days. Today kids are starting in 3rd grade. What will their knees look like ten years from now. Tough kids but honestly I don't think it is worth crippling yourself for life.

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Someone who can be honest and say it nicely. Some of these kids are damaging themselves for life. It's not worth their future riddled with pain and arthritis. ...

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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great question.

So can you explain how it's UNFAIR if both face off players can use the same equipment and technique, to "pinch n Pop"??


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Originally Posted by Xavier jones
This is a link to an online petition that will be forwarded to the NCAA rules committee to stop the proposed faceoff rule changes sign the petition support the cause

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/faceoff-men-unite-again.html


Besides the petition voice your concern to the the decision makers

Here is a link to the list of current members on the lax rules committee:

http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=MLACRULES

Here are all of the committee members' email addresses:

Joe Breschi breschi@unc.edu

Robert L. Scalise scalise@fas.harvard.edu

Mike Hardisky hardisky@msmary.edu

Bob Shillinglaw bobshil@udel.edu

John Jez john.jez@liu.edu

Jon Hind (chairman) jhind@hamilton.edu

Josh MacArthur wmacarthur@babson.edu

Doug Misarti misartid@kenyon.edu

start emailing the members expressing the displeasure with the proposed rules changes.

Here is a link to the results of a survey sent to all coaches and referees before the committee met to discuss proposed rule changes:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Supp_No_9B_Survey_Detailed_Breakouts.pdf

Here is a link to the executive summary of the survey results:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Supp_No_9A_Rules_Survey_Executive_Summary.pdf

Notably, the majority of coaches and refs believe the current state of the face off rules is just fine. And yet the committee messed with it any way. That's a pretty powerful argument. Why change something most interested parties believe is working well.

Also, the potential for player injuries (i.e., concussions) due to wing men running full speed into the face off area to pick up a ground ball needs to be emphasized. Hitting within 5 yards of a ground ball is still legal. Seems to me the committee's focus should be to take head shots out of the game. This will create more. This is a very strong argument too.

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Re: Faceoff Petition 2014
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Is it fair that goalies hold the ball down with the back of their sticks, with old in it from play? Just sayin!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I propose no more long poles, against the spirit of the game. It's cheating and needs to be stopped!!


You sound like the folks that want to change the face off. If we want to cite "not in the spirit of the game, all poles need to go because that is not how the game was originally intended. See how silly that sounds! Evolution happens, deal with it.

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I thought the survey would show the coaches totally against the rule changes but it doesn't..so this is a waste of time to sign a petition. What are we going to decide the rules as parents and kids . Give me a break. All this talk going back and fourth means nothing but hot air from the parents who's kids are FOGO's. I understand being upset but it's time to move on.

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The rules committee is acting like Obama, unilateral decision making with lack of support from the other governing bodies.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I thought the survey would show the coaches totally against the rule changes but it doesn't..so this is a waste of time to sign a petition. What are we going to decide the rules as parents and kids . Give me a break. All this talk going back and fourth means nothing but hot air from the parents who's kids are FOGO's. I understand being upset but it's time to move on.


agreed. adapt to the rule change and move on.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The rules committee is acting like Obama, unilateral decision making with lack of support from the other governing bodies.


Sorry FOGO dad

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I thought the survey would show the coaches totally against the rule changes but it doesn't..so this is a waste of time to sign a petition. What are we going to decide the rules as parents and kids . Give me a break. All this talk going back and fourth means nothing but hot air from the parents who's kids are FOGO's. I understand being upset but it's time to move on.


agreed. adapt to the rule change and move on.


I don't believe you are actually reading the results correctly. Numbers don't lie

Survey Question 2 - Just over 78% of ALL Coaches and Officials agreed that either Maybe or Yes that the face-off rules changes made before the 2013 season had a positive impact on the game.
Survey Question 11 - 71% of respondents (All Coaches & Officials) believe the "state of the game" is positive & somewhat positive as it relates to face-offs.
Survey Question 14 - 61% of respondents believe its Negative to Somewhat Negative that face-off players are prohibited from trapping the ball in the back of the stick.
Survey Question 15 - 61% of respondents provide Limited to No Support to "limit how long the ball may be carried in the back of the stick".
Survey Question 16 - The majority 66% of respondents provide Limited to No Support to make the cadence of the official saying "down, set, etc." consistent. Current rules call for the cadence to be staggered.
Survey Question 17 - The majority 73% of respondents provide Limited to No Support to prohibit face-off players, in the set position from having a knee down on the ground. Also I'm not a FOGO daddy, just a daddy of a attack-man who benefits greatly from a FOGO

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I thought the survey would show the coaches totally against the rule changes but it doesn't..so this is a waste of time to sign a petition. What are we going to decide the rules as parents and kids . Give me a break. All this talk going back and fourth means nothing but hot air from the parents who's kids are FOGO's. I understand being upset but it's time to move on.


Hey genius the survey was done before the rules committee met to give them a guide line.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Xavier jones
This is a link to an online petition that will be forwarded to the NCAA rules committee to stop the proposed faceoff rule changes sign the petition support the cause

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/faceoff-men-unite-again.html


Besides the petition voice your concern to the the decision makers

Here is a link to the list of current members on the lax rules committee:

http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=MLACRULES

Here are all of the committee members' email addresses:

Joe Breschi breschi@unc.edu

Robert L. Scalise scalise@fas.harvard.edu

Mike Hardisky hardisky@msmary.edu

Bob Shillinglaw bobshil@udel.edu

John Jez john.jez@liu.edu

Jon Hind (chairman) jhind@hamilton.edu

Josh MacArthur wmacarthur@babson.edu

Doug Misarti misartid@kenyon.edu

start emailing the members expressing the displeasure with the proposed rules changes.

Here is a link to the results of a survey sent to all coaches and referees before the committee met to discuss proposed rule changes:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Supp_No_9B_Survey_Detailed_Breakouts.pdf

Here is a link to the executive summary of the survey results:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Supp_No_9A_Rules_Survey_Executive_Summary.pdf

Notably, the majority of coaches and refs believe the current state of the face off rules is just fine. And yet the committee messed with it any way. That's a pretty powerful argument. Why change something most interested parties believe is working well.

Also, the potential for player injuries (i.e., concussions) due to wing men running full speed into the face off area to pick up a ground ball needs to be emphasized. Hitting within 5 yards of a ground ball is still legal. Seems to me the committee's focus should be to take head shots out of the game. This will create more. This is a very strong argument too.


Already crazy lacrosse parents of HS FOGOs who are pissed and worried about the relevance of the FOGO emailing college coaches to complain about this rule affecting their son, altering his athletic prospects, etc.

Yes, that should go well.

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