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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
DO NOT TAKE THAT ADVISE. all due respect Cage but that is ill advised and just downright inaccurate. You are bringing in non athletic general admission statistics which I hope we all can agree DO NOT MATTER. Be hones with the coaches that are recruiting you about your studies and they will guide you through the process.
Dear Friend : My family has already done the academic/Ivy chase - twice. Both of my children (boy/girl) were academic valedictorians, sports team captains, regional athletes, All-State band participants, every honor society under the sun, and recruited by various schools. Would you like to talk about my placement career as a coach? Again, this is not about me - or my family - but if you want to challenge our advice, I thought it only fair to tell you from whence this information flows.

Expecting a 2017 graduate to already have "guaranteed admission" with 0.25-0.40 scholarships with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes and no SAT/ACT performance numbers is following a yellow-brick road to no where.

Attending an academic institution where your student-athlete simply cannot keep pace is a parental nightmare (wait until you get that call) and happens to be one of the top reasons why you see can't miss Long Island superstars attending institutions a thousand miles and eight hours from home as freshmen and returning to a local outfit within a short time as a sophomore.

Now, if you would like to ask a constructive question, please feel free.


Cage is dishing out very good advice here. Having gone through the process twice I cannot emphasize enough choose a school where you can keep up academically or the whole family will suffer. You may get in to a school above your academic standards based on an overzealous coach pulling for you but unfortunately the coach can't attend class and take tests for you. Be careful or you will be miserable and watch the Ivies. They do not support lacrosse players at all. Speaking from experience here.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
If this athlete scores in the 90th percentile or better on the SATs, then being a great/recruited lacrosse player with a 3.5 in non-honors will get him into all of the aforementioned schools and -- if he is already garnering this kind of attention from lax programs -- probably even better. The SAT has been, and will always be, the real determining factor in college admissions.
Expecting a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes to now achieve a 90th percentile SAT performance is unrealistic. The Mathematics section alone, without Algebra II/Trigonometry mastery, will fall well short of the 650 score which immediately takes you out of the 90th-percentile.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
With rank in class often not disclosed, grade inflation (and in some cases recently grade deflation), and no real way to differentiate High School X's non-honors curriculum from High School Y's honors curriculum, the SAT always makes the difference.
There is a common misconception that rank is not revealed. With your child's transcript, your High School will send a school profile document. If you have not seen it, you should request a copy. That document will disclose the grades associated with each decile in the graduating class along with the top level courses offered in each academic discipline. Assuming that your child's rank - or at least decile - cannot be determined demonstrates a clear lack of understand of the college admissions process.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
For example, Regis High School has no AP classes, yet every NY public high school offers every conceivable AP class.
Regis specifically deals with this in their academic profile.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
I would venture a guess that the non-AP classes at Regis are, on average, more competitive and probably cover more ground than the AP curriculum elsewhere.
That would be incorrect.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
On the other hand, AP classes at one of the trophy publics (like Bronx HS of Science) are probably even more competitive.
Advanced placement is consistent across most High Schools - the actual end-game performance on the exam measures the effectiveness.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Fortunately for the average student lacrosse athlete applying to college, neither school plays lacrosse.
Focus on academics, the major selection process, and location/alumni network. All three of these will have longer lasting effects on your child over and above the impact of lacrosse.


Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile. And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.

In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
UNC has officially lost their minds!!!!!!!


well, they did pick a kid who by definition, has no other credentials to his name other than his club team where he a was marginal second line at best and a so-so player on the Brine stacked Long Island North team again riding the coat tails of other really good players on that team

was not at 3D...did not make JR...did not go to Philly Showcase

and I am not even sure if he was at a UNC prospect camp (it would be intersting to know)

and is very well know to be very shy from physical contact and has no prob riding the bench.

congrats to him for getting that far under the proverbial radar but there must be much more to the $tory...

good luck with the big boys at UNC...

you should write for the inquirer. try to get some facts straight before letting your emotions send something like this

so make the corrections and put up the credentials...they must be somewhere for review

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
DO NOT TAKE THAT ADVISE. all due respect Cage but that is ill advised and just downright inaccurate. You are bringing in non athletic general admission statistics which I hope we all can agree DO NOT MATTER. Be hones with the coaches that are recruiting you about your studies and they will guide you through the process.
Dear Friend : My family has already done the academic/Ivy chase - twice. Both of my children (boy/girl) were academic valedictorians, sports team captains, regional athletes, All-State band participants, every honor society under the sun, and recruited by various schools. Would you like to talk about my placement career as a coach? Again, this is not about me - or my family - but if you want to challenge our advice, I thought it only fair to tell you from whence this information flows.

Expecting a 2017 graduate to already have "guaranteed admission" with 0.25-0.40 scholarships with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes and no SAT/ACT performance numbers is following a yellow-brick road to no where.

Attending an academic institution where your student-athlete simply cannot keep pace is a parental nightmare (wait until you get that call) and happens to be one of the top reasons why you see can't miss Long Island superstars attending institutions a thousand miles and eight hours from home as freshmen and returning to a local outfit within a short time as a sophomore.

Now, if you would like to ask a constructive question, please feel free.


Cage you might be right with regard to the fact that they might not do well when they get there, but they will get in. I know of a young man headed to UNC, wont say what year, 89 avg. No honors or ap and only has to break 1000 on the sat. Seems like your experience is in the Ivies, where academic standards are much higher. However, with the golden ticket, a player with the afore mentioned stats could get in. A recruited athlete has far more latitude with admissions than that of the average credentials of an incoming freshman non-athlete. While revenue and non-revenue sports differ, it is highly unlikely that most members of the football team and basketball team are reaching the academic standards you lay out above for those schools. With that in mind, the admissions criteria is far from concrete. It is every bit fluid and up for negotiation at every turn. If the coach really wants the kid, all the academic grids and everything else go out the window. I will agree, the student needs to then be able to do the work. In the end, that's where the rubber meets the road and all the talk about "right fit" comes into play.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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what you really meant to say is congratulations

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.


I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
UNC has officially lost their minds!!!!!!!


well, they did pick a kid who by definition, has no other credentials to his name other than his club team where he a was marginal second line at best and a so-so player on the Brine stacked Long Island North team again riding the coat tails of other really good players on that team

was not at 3D...did not make JR...did not go to Philly Showcase

and I am not even sure if he was at a UNC prospect camp (it would be intersting to know)

and is very well know to be very shy from physical contact and has no prob riding the bench.

congrats to him for getting that far under the proverbial radar but there must be much more to the $tory...

good luck with the big boys at UNC...

you should write for the inquirer. try to get some facts straight before letting your emotions send something like this

so make the corrections and put up the credentials...they must be somewhere for review


Whats the big deal! Both turtles that are committed (Hopkins and UNC) and neither was at 3D, Jake Reed or Philly Showcase. I guess it don't matter for them, lucky kids. Congrats to all 2017 commits.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
UNC has officially lost their minds!!!!!!!


well, they did pick a kid who by definition, has no other credentials to his name other than his club team where he a was marginal second line at best and a so-so player on the Brine stacked Long Island North team again riding the coat tails of other really good players on that team

was not at 3D...did not make JR...did not go to Philly Showcase

and I am not even sure if he was at a UNC prospect camp (it would be intersting to know)

and is very well know to be very shy from physical contact and has no prob riding the bench.

congrats to him for getting that far under the proverbial radar but there must be much more to the $tory...

good luck with the big boys at UNC...
BOTC did some research on this post - the player in question is one of the seventeen that compose the Turtles roster and every player on that squad pulls their weight.

Unfortunately, this post is very uninformed and the player in question attended the 3D Showcase and also make the Jake Reed Showcase. Due to an injury (broken arm), the player was not at the Brine event - but it makes a much better story to leave out an injury.

As for physical contact, it is clearly the case that the staff at UNC did not see such a fault in this Class of 2017 player. Given the choice of credentials, a UNC coach versus your anonymous, error-laden posting, BOTC recommends its readers to trust the UNC choice.

Now, for a closing word : any other poster who attempts to post about this child by reference or this situation will be permanently banned. Enough is enough.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
so make the corrections and put up the credentials...they must be somewhere for review
I personally made the corrections to your error-laden and uninformed post. My recommendation is that you back away from the keyboard. Gunga Galunga. Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.


I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.


Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.

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Please stop with they did not made Jack R. Or 3D crap. Did the FO kid from TB make JR no. Why because he did not have a director from TB down there. Some express and 91 kids made it because they had directors coaching the teams. Nothing wrong with that just a fact.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.


I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.


Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.


You certainly have a matrix of options to consider. It's a high class problem for sure that 99.9% on this forum wish they had.

Bottom line is that you, and especially your son, should spend time with each coach, get to know the culture of the team, spend some time on each campus with a focus on academics and campus culture, and ultimately make the decision that feels right to your son. It will be his life for 4 years and it will be his 5AM practice calls.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I would like to get some opinions. My 2017 son is a very good player with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes (for now!) He has serious interest and offers from the following schools. Syracuse(#2 lax, #62 rank).4 of tuition, and Georgetown (not lax ranked,#20 rank) .4 tuition, Maryland (#10 lax, #62 rank), .33 Tuition, UNC (#5 lax rank, #30 rank) .25 of total cost, and Penn State (#11 lax , 37 rank) .5 of total. It is such a big decision, and we are leaning to one, but would like to know if anyone has any words of wisdom in making this choice. Thanks!


Congratulations to your son! Out of curiosity, are there any time limits on these offers?


Congratulations to your son- what a great bunch of schools to have to chose from!

May I ask, what do you think made the difference for your son? Was it his club team, school team, a specific coach going to bat for him, show cases, etc? We have a year or two ahead of us, but am already overwhelmed by all that the kids can do/should do. It seems like your son is a hard worker, both on the field and off. You must be very proud of his efforts.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.


I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.


Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.


This seems like it's all your decision - "I am considering...". Does your son have any say in the matter or are you controling the whole process and he'll take what you decide for him? What school does HE WANT to go to? Trust me, if you make this deceision for him it will probably not work out. It doesn't sound like he can make a bad decision so let him make the final call.

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Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.
Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.
Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.
Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.


I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.


Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.


This seems like it's all your decision - "I am considering...". Does your son have any say in the matter or are you controling the whole process and he'll take what you decide for him? What school does HE WANT to go to? Trust me, if you make this deceision for him it will probably not work out. It doesn't sound like he can make a bad decision so let him make the final call.


I appreciate what you are saying, and my son did go and visit with all the coaches, he definitely has his preferences. We (I) am trying to have him consider all of the variables. A 14-15 year old boy does not have the wisdom/foresight to make this decision without parental input. Of course, we would not force him to go somewhere he does not "feel", we didn't even visit the Ivies (yes, they called!) because it is not the right fit academically and we are trying to be realistic. A young boy also does not know what it is like to come out of school with massive debt, so cost is also a factor. Like you said, all good choices, so hopefully we make the right decision!

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I would like to get some opinions. My 2017 son is a very good player with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes (for now!) He has serious interest and offers from the following schools. Syracuse(#2 lax, #62 rank).4 of tuition, and Georgetown (not lax ranked,#20 rank) .4 tuition, Maryland (#10 lax, #62 rank), .33 Tuition, UNC (#5 lax rank, #30 rank) .25 of total cost, and Penn State (#11 lax , 37 rank) .5 of total. It is such a big decision, and we are leaning to one, but would like to know if anyone has any words of wisdom in making this choice. Thanks!


Congratulations to your son! Out of curiosity, are there any time limits on these offers?


Congratulations to your son- what a great bunch of schools to have to chose from!

May I ask, what do you think made the difference for your son? Was it his club team, school team, a specific coach going to bat for him, show cases, etc? We have a year or two ahead of us, but am already overwhelmed by all that the kids can do/should do. It seems like your son is a hard worker, both on the field and off. You must be very proud of his efforts.


My son is not a hard worker at school. He does what he needs to do, but does not "love" school. He loves lacrosse. It has made him a better person, the values he has learned will hopefully translate into success in life (hopefully). He plays for a good school and has been doing varsity tournaments since last summer, also Philly showcase. This put him on radar. Did club many years but not last summer. We are proud of him, and wish the best to everyone else going though this process.

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I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.
Excellent post and thank you for your contribution from Georgetown University. BOTC welcomes your input on any of the other academic subjects being discussed on this or our other threads.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!


Totally true about a G'town or an Ivy, Patriot or any other high end academic school like an NESCAC (D3's) as far as "academic support" goes. Its expected that the student athlete can soar WITHOUT help.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Fanatastic post! Players/parents need to understand this. Pick the college that is the best fit for academic success. The difficulty you and your son will endure at a school that is an academic stretch is simply not worth it. Even if you transfer, the damage is already done if you pull a 2.5 at a top school.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!


Why are you doing this in such a public forumn? While I am sure others' perspectives are helpful, I would be concerned with the anonymity of my son. Your call, not mine but people can probably figure out who you are based on your posts (school opportunities, no club last summer, did well at Philly Showcase, etc.). Again, none of my business, but if you are looking for advice there are much quieter ways to do it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!


Why are you doing this in such a public forumn? While I am sure others' perspectives are helpful, I would be concerned with the anonymity of my son. Your call, not mine but people can probably figure out who you are based on your posts (school opportunities, no club last summer, did well at Philly Showcase, etc.). Again, none of my business, but if you are looking for advice there are much quieter ways to do it.


I am just looking to see if others in the same situation, or soon to be, have any valuable insight that I may be able to benefit from. There are many other kids just like my son out there right now, so if trying to "figure out who he is" is important, go ahead. I have asked many people for their advise, and thought an anonymous forum might bring out some things that I may not have considered.

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I'm pretty convinced this is some fictional profile. If you've been around the college visit tour this past Fall, you'll realize that a lot of his details just don't add up. Maybe I'm wrong and all these schools are just waiting around for this mystery stud to commit. It just seems strange since Georgetown and Syracuse have not committed one 2017 and Penn State only committed one true freshman (a goalie).


Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!


Why are you doing this in such a public forumn? While I am sure others' perspectives are helpful, I would be concerned with the anonymity of my son. Your call, not mine but people can probably figure out who you are based on your posts (school opportunities, no club last summer, did well at Philly Showcase, etc.). Again, none of my business, but if you are looking for advice there are much quieter ways to do it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
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I would like to get some opinions. My 2017 son is a very good player with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes (for now!) He has serious interest and offers from the following schools. Syracuse(#2 lax, #62 rank).4 of tuition, and Georgetown (not lax ranked,#20 rank) .4 tuition, Maryland (#10 lax, #62 rank), .33 Tuition, UNC (#5 lax rank, #30 rank) .25 of total cost, and Penn State (#11 lax , 37 rank) .5 of total. It is such a big decision, and we are leaning to one, but would like to know if anyone has any words of wisdom in making this choice. Thanks!


Congratulations to your son! Out of curiosity, are there any time limits on these offers?


Congratulations to your son- what a great bunch of schools to have to chose from!

May I ask, what do you think made the difference for your son? Was it his club team, school team, a specific coach going to bat for him, show cases, etc? We have a year or two ahead of us, but am already overwhelmed by all that the kids can do/should do. It seems like your son is a hard worker, both on the field and off. You must be very proud of his efforts.


My son is not a hard worker at school. He does what he needs to do, but does not "love" school. He loves lacrosse. It has made him a better person, the values he has learned will hopefully translate into success in life (hopefully). He plays for a good school and has been doing varsity tournaments since last summer, also Philly showcase. This put him on radar. Did club many years but not last summer. We are proud of him, and wish the best to everyone else going though this process.


Thanks for the insight. My son is a couple of years away from this process, so the information is helpful. Did the coaches begin contacting you after Philly, or did you show interest first?

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Visiting lecturer here again. I was only trying to be helpful and share my insights. Take all of it with pounds of sand. I am not an authority and can only share my optic. Yes, it is true that where you went to school and what your GPA was does fall away in relevance over time. By the way, I am not an academic, I am a business owner who is a visiting lecturer only.

I have seen Georgetown grads with All-America decorations struggle to get a first job. Some of that is a tough economy and some of it remains that they were 2.4-2.7 students competing with better students for a first job. Few employers care that you were All-America in a sport much beyond seeing that as a work ethic plus. They care about an academic record. Getting a first job with a weak college record is acutely difficult today I think and have seen. Your disagreement is noted, and I see your point on the 5+ years out scenarios. I am talking about kids having the best first job opportunity.

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!!
Have you had a child in their sophomore, junior or senior year of college compete for on-campus interviews or internships? When you present a resume to a potenial employer, do you think a 2.5 or 3.5 GPA will be more likely to get a look? Do you believe that a recruiter attending a Georgetown Open House will be looking for an athlete's background?

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa.
Establishing a hard dollar value - no. Establishing that there would be more opportunities for interviews - yes.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line.
Do you have students that have entered the job or graduate school markets in the last five years? There is a residual impact as the same opportunities will simply not present themselves.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves.
Just as you cannot monetize the value of a 2.5 over a 3.5 GPA, you cannot assert that a sports-influenced 2.5 demonstrates a stronger work ethic. As an interviewer, you are looking for skill sets in an entry level candidate and the competition is fierce.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies.
Incorrect. You are ignoring the pull that an alumni network has in the region surrounding an institution. For example, attending UVa hoping to land a New [lacrosse] based internship is not a solid strategy.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement )
If what you say is true, the development of an 18 year old High School senior with and without college would follow the same trajectory. Clearly, that is not the case.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much.
We disagree.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance....
Agreed with the work ethic, but Nowhere U's student is less likely to get the same opportunity.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.
A credible CEO would not typically refer to another's opinion as garbage, much less associating a price tag with it. If you are a CEO from the "real world", perhaps you should be more concerned about your corporation than pontificating here on BOTC?

Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Visiting lecturer here again. I was only trying to be helpful and share my insights. Take all of it with pounds of sand. I am not an authority and can only share my optic. Yes, it is true that where you went to school and what your GPA was does fall away in relevance over time. By the way, I am not an academic, I am a business owner who is a visiting lecturer only.

I have seen Georgetown grads with All-America decorations struggle to get a first job. Some of that is a tough economy and some of it remains that they were 2.4-2.7 students competing with better students for a first job. Few employers care that you were All-America in a sport much beyond seeing that as a work ethic plus. They care about an academic record. Getting a first job with a weak college record is acutely difficult today I think and have seen. Your disagreement is noted, and I see your point on the 5+ years out scenarios. I am talking about kids having the best first job opportunity.
Thank you again for your contribution.

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!!
Have you had a child in their sophomore, junior or senior year of college compete for on-campus interviews or internships? When you present a resume to a potenial employer, do you think a 2.5 or 3.5 GPA will be more likely to get a look? Do you believe that a recruiter attending a Georgetown Open House will be looking for an athlete's background?

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa.
Establishing a hard dollar value - no. Establishing that there would be more opportunities for interviews - yes.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line.
Do you have students that have entered the job or graduate school markets in the last five years? There is a residual impact as the same opportunities will simply not present themselves.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves.
Just as you cannot monetize the value of a 2.5 over a 3.5 GPA, you cannot assert that a sports-influenced 2.5 demonstrates a stronger work ethic. As an interviewer, you are looking for skill sets in an entry level candidate and the competition is fierce.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies.
Incorrect. You are ignoring the pull that an alumni network has in the region surrounding an institution. For example, attending UVa hoping to land a New [lacrosse] based internship is not a solid strategy.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement )
If what you say is true, the development of an 18 year old High School senior with and without college would follow the same trajectory. Clearly, that is not the case.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much.
We disagree.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance....
Agreed with the work ethic, but Nowhere U's student is less likely to get the same opportunity.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.
A credible CEO would not typically refer to another's opinion as garbage, much less associating a price tag with it. If you are a CEO from the "real world", perhaps you should be more concerned about your corporation than pontificating here on BOTC?


Cage, the assertion that a student who gets a 2.5 will not go far in life is "garbage". To say that to a parent or a kid is not only garbage, it is down right irresponsible. Has the vaunted professor performed a study over 30 plus years of individual graduates to back up his opinion? I think not.

I never said the student with higher grades wouldn't receive more opportunity immediately after graduation. I said 5 years after, there would be very little difference.

Let's be clear, as the CEO of a company I built from ZERO, I am far less concerned with where a candidate went to school than with what they achieved in the real world. I have hired many people over the years for six figure plus positions, the school they went to was never a deciding factor, nor were their grades. Further, I have had this discussion with my contemporaries, to a person, school name has very little if any impact on hiring and individual 5 plus years after graduation.

You sir, have posted on this site numerous times about your own children's academic success. Which you should be proud of. Perhaps you feel given the achievements in the classroom, they or you are owed something in life. Perhaps the academic achievements didn't quite yield the desired or anticipated results.

BTW, don't worry about my company, doing just fine and I'm semi retired in my late 40's. I come on here because my two son's love lax, as do I. Further, I will respond to whatever I want, whenever I want to. If I feel compelled to give folks a different perspective on things than that of an ill informed professor, I will.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.


Get real Mr. CEO. That 2.5 in today's world is useless. You'll never get the opportunity to show what a "hard worker" you are because there are thousands of 3.5's and up that worked their tails off and are smarter. Your first impression with a 2.5 means your either not too smart or lazy.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.



I disagree with the substance and tone of your post. GPAs matter a lot for a kid beginning his/her career. As you get older what you did in college becomes less and less relevant. You will eventually have a Yale guy reporting to someone from a SUNY school, etc. That happens.....a lot. In terms of starting out, though, there are employers who won't interview you (even with a 4.0) unless you come from a top tier school. And there are other employers who won't interview you unless you have a certain GPA. That is reality. Now maybe lax networking will give a kid the inside track for a job...it often does and that is a great collateral benefit to playing. However, you are at a disadvantage when beginning your career if you are sporting a 2.5 GPA.

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"Cage, the assertion that a student who gets a 2.5 will not go far in life is "garbage". To say that to a parent or a kid is not only garbage, it is down right irresponsible."

I did not see that statement in Cage's post. Looks like you are making an assumption based on his statements.

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I hire a lot of computer science majors right out of school. I hardly notice their GPA. I'm more concerned with real world experience (internships, summer jobs, etc.).

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Most lacrosse players are not computer science majors. They want to be bankers consultants etc... Most won't look at you unless you have a 3.5. In some cases you make sneak by with a 3.3 or 3.4 if you're from a Top 5 school. GPA matters!

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Isn't the point that is being made is that those internships and summer jobs typically go to the kids with the higher GPA's?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
"Cage, the assertion that a student who gets a 2.5 will not go far in life is "garbage". To say that to a parent or a kid is not only garbage, it is down right irresponsible."

I did not see that statement in Cage's post. Looks like you are making an assumption based on his statements.


What are you talking about? The Economics poster specifically said "an athletes 2.5 gpa will not carry him far in life" That's the garage I referred to. It is garbage and irresponsible to say such a thing. His assertion is that one won't get anywhere if there college gpa was 2.5. As if the next 40 years of your life are doomed because of a 2.5 gpa. Such an insane statement.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.


Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.


Get real Mr. CEO. That 2.5 in today's world is useless. You'll never get the opportunity to show what a "hard worker" you are because there are thousands of 3.5's and up that worked their tails off and are smarter. Your first impression with a 2.5 means your either not too smart or lazy.

Or maybe they just don't love school.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Most lacrosse players are not computer science majors. They want to be bankers consultants etc... Most won't look at you unless you have a 3.5. In some cases you make sneak by with a 3.3 or 3.4 if you're from a Top 5 school. GPA matters!


To assert that a kid that comes out of school with 2.5 GPA is doomed is just nuts. Five years after school it all evens out.
However, GPA doesn't matter all that much, perhaps you should read the WSJ. Recent article depicts hiring trends of the very professions you speak of. They are hiring athletes in droves with lower grades than non-athlete. Why? They are mentally tough and have essentially worked full-time while going to school. They have the ability to handle pressure, and don't crack under it. They are more well rounded and tend to have a strong work ethic. By the way, not every lax kid want to be in banking either. Major generalization on your part.

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