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Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse #3758
09/21/11 12:09 PM
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The recent discussion currently taking place on the Long Island Express and Team 91 threads reminds BOTC strongly of discussions that we saw on our soccer sister site, Back of the Net, about ten years back.

Lacrosse is moving to (or already has become) a year-round sport and the existance of Elite or Premier Clubs is fostering the business side of that equation. The market is already ripe with parents and players having a tremendous appetite for the increased competition and training on a year-round basis.

The town team concept will eventually be completely relegated to instructional or developmental efforts in the younger age groups if it has not been so already. Players will begin migrating to the Elite Club structures at younger ages (perhaps Grade 3 or Grade 4 at the latest) and town players will most likely only come back together during their High School Junior Varsity and Varsity seasons.

This is precisely what we saw in soccer from 1998-2002 as regional "Premier Leagues" were formed to service the very best teams and those teams remained together throughout the calendar year to compete and showcase at the highest levels. BOTC fully expects that some type of regional league structure will emerge sooner rather than later to bring down the overall cost to parents in chasing tournaments while building a more consistent, competitive structure for the longer term. BOTC expects that a top premier league covering Maryland/Virginia northward through New Jersey/New [lacrosse] will happen in the next two to three years with state based feeder leagues introduced thereafter to build a proper promotion and relegation system.

Right now on the Long Island girls side, you have already seen some market consolidation with very few "super clubs" emerging. Interestingly from soccer, you saw the girls Elite Club pecking order emerge before the boys.

During the next three years, you can expect to see some consolidation on the boys side as the truly top Elite Clubs begin to emerge. The lesson here is that those of you hoping to see the re-emergence of the town team structure are going to be sorely disappointed. The genie is already out of the bottle.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #3769
09/21/11 01:03 PM
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You sound like a really good guy to get advice from. I am looking into Lax clubs for the first time, my son is 13, has been playing since he was 6 for the town along with summer travel which usually is a disater. He is a good lax player, not elite, the competition at 91 for his age group was off the hook. In your humble opinion where should I go next. I am thinking Riptide, Jesters, Recon, Long Island Park.I just want him to play with kids his level and better, enjoyable, local and no real drama would be preferable. I just don't know which clubs are actually looking for better skilled players and which are looking to collect the 25, 40, or $50.00 Fee.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Anonymous] #3771
09/21/11 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
In your humble opinion where should I go next. I am thinking Riptide, Jesters, Recon, Long Island Park.I just want him to play with kids his level and better, enjoyable, local and no real drama would be preferable. I just don't know which clubs are actually looking for better skilled players and which are looking to collect the 25, 40, or $50.00 Fee.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
To be fair, we are not going to be able to call out one program over another as these programs each offer their own unique features. What we can suggest is that you research each of the clubs you have mentioned here on BOTC's Tryout Forum and make a couple of phone calls asking each program director to describe how they handle their 13 year-old programs. Check their training and club philosophy against what your family has found useful and enjoyable at the town team level. In short, researching the "easy stuff" before you get to the tryout fields will both save you money and make your son's tryout align with your own expectations.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #3912
09/24/11 12:06 PM
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Hope someone can help us out. We are looking for a highschool level winter league for girls.The further east the better but will consider all options. Thanks

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: sectionxi] #3914
09/24/11 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sectionxi
Hope someone can help us out. We are looking for a highschool level winter league for girls.The further east the better but will consider all options. Thanks
BOTC knows that Globall is putting together a Fall/Winter lacrosse league right now and BOTC will be carrying the details. You can call them directly by clicking on their sponsor's banner (top row, center square) - please ask for Meghan Frey when calling.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #4424
10/10/11 08:57 AM
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But there are a few hold outs. Three Village lacrosse has its head in the sand on this issue, and according to their board meeting from a few weeks ago, you will not be allowed to play "elite" teams and if you do, you will face being "shunned" in the community along with hopefully not playing on the HS team if their candidate for varsity coach gets the position. Politics mad

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: 2ndsportLAX] #4441
10/11/11 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by itismeyesme
But there are a few hold outs. Three Village lacrosse has its head in the sand on this issue, and according to their board meeting from a few weeks ago, you will not be allowed to play "elite" teams and if you do, you will face being "shunned" in the community along with hopefully not playing on the HS team if their candidate for varsity coach gets the position. Politics mad


the only thing that can stop the trend is the varsity coaches and that is if they even want to. by trying to emulate WI or WM they can sell the kids on whats better for the High School team is better for everybody and also the cost savings - right now kids are predominately still being recruited through the HS coach although they are being seen with their summer teams, the HS coach still has huge input and there for leverage. this is the difference between Lax and basketball, hockey and soccer where the recruiting is all through the club or AAU teams. there are good arguments to both sides, playing on club teams gives you the opportunity to play with different coaches, different types of offenses and defenses and it is better to play with kids on the same playing level A/B or C. on the other hand staying with your high school team will make the team better and the program better and that in turn should help everybody. at the end of the day try to make the best decision for your own kid for what is best for them. personally I think play on your town team and get an SAT tutor with all the money you saved on not playing travel.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Anonymous] #4443
10/11/11 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
the only thing that can stop the trend is the varsity coaches and that is if they even want to. by trying to emulate WI or WM they can sell the kids on whats better for the High School team is better for everybody and also the cost savings - right now kids are predominately still being recruited through the HS coach although they are being seen with their summer teams, the HS coach still has huge input and there for leverage.
To prove just how wrong this observation is, let me ask you a couple of questions. First, do you think that collegiate lacrosse coaches are taking off from their daily Spring season training to go and see a Long Island High School Varsity game? Second, do you think that that unevenness of Long Island Varsity competition is the proving ground on which any coach would actually make a roster decision for their college team?
Originally Posted by Anonymous
this is the difference between Lax and basketball, hockey and soccer where the recruiting is all through the club or AAU teams. there are good arguments to both sides, playing on club teams gives you the opportunity to play with different coaches, different types of offenses and defenses and it is better to play with kids on the same playing level A/B or C. on the other hand staying with your high school team will make the team better and the program better and that in turn should help everybody. at the end of the day try to make the best decision for your own kid for what is best for them. personally I think play on your town team and get an SAT tutor with all the money you saved on not playing travel.
BOTC certainly agrees that the academic profile of the player will be as or more important in the long run acceptance process at any university.

We disagree that the town team approach in order to bolster a High School program is the right approach. Fifteen years back, soccer was managed in that manner. With premier teams emerging, soccer migrated away from town team approaches to premier play. BOTC has observed that lacrosse is about ten years behind soccer in this youth sports evolution, but evolving it is and perhaps more rapidly than soccer with the rate of increase in private education tuition.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #4452
10/11/11 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
the only thing that can stop the trend is the varsity coaches and that is if they even want to. by trying to emulate WI or WM they can sell the kids on whats better for the High School team is better for everybody and also the cost savings - right now kids are predominately still being recruited through the HS coach although they are being seen with their summer teams, the HS coach still has huge input and there for leverage.
To prove just how wrong this observation is, let me ask you a couple of questions. First, do you think that collegiate lacrosse coaches are taking off from their daily Spring season training to go and see a Long Island High School Varsity game? Second, do you think that that unevenness of Long Island Varsity competition is the proving ground on which any coach would actually make a roster decision for their college team?
I think you missed his point entirely, unless I am reading this wrong he is saying that the HS coach is still the main conduit to the college coaches for recruiting but they are seeing the players in the Summer with their select team, you are both saying the same thing that college coaches do not scout HS regular season games, to the point of the HS program still being important there are plenty of scouts at Stony Brook and Hofstra for the county championships so if you get to the championship game because you played together all summer and fall to make your school team better you are now in the Long Island Championship game in front of 100 college coaches then not only have you helped yourself but you have also helped your teammates and friends, there is nothing the matter with having a primary goal to win help your school win a HS championship as opposed to your primary goal is to get into a college for lacrosse.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #4453
10/11/11 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
the only thing that can stop the trend is the varsity coaches and that is if they even want to. by trying to emulate WI or WM they can sell the kids on whats better for the High School team is better for everybody and also the cost savings - right now kids are predominately still being recruited through the HS coach although they are being seen with their summer teams, the HS coach still has huge input and there for leverage.
To prove just how wrong this observation is, let me ask you a couple of questions. First, do you think that collegiate lacrosse coaches are taking off from their daily Spring season training to go and see a Long Island High School Varsity game? Second, do you think that that unevenness of Long Island Varsity competition is the proving ground on which any coach would actually make a roster decision for their college team?
Originally Posted by Anonymous
this is the difference between Lax and basketball, hockey and soccer where the recruiting is all through the club or AAU teams. there are good arguments to both sides, playing on club teams gives you the opportunity to play with different coaches, different types of offenses and defenses and it is better to play with kids on the same playing level A/B or C. on the other hand staying with your high school team will make the team better and the program better and that in turn should help everybody. at the end of the day try to make the best decision for your own kid for what is best for them. personally I think play on your town team and get an SAT tutor with all the money you saved on not playing travel.
BOTC certainly agrees that the academic profile of the player will be as or more important in the long run acceptance process at any university.

We disagree that the town team approach in order to bolster a High School program is the right approach. Fifteen years back, soccer was managed in that manner. With premier teams emerging, soccer migrated away from town team approaches to premier play. BOTC has observed that lacrosse is about ten years behind soccer in this youth sports evolution, but evolving it is and perhaps more rapidly than soccer with the rate of increase in private education tuition.


Often, how good a town team and school team are, seems to be a reflection of how many top level players they have on the team that were developed and fed through the travel or club teams. Each boys and girls have certain schools that are successful and independant examples of good training and development. I would be extremely upset if my son or daughter's town/school team tried to block them from playing travel/club ball. The truth is, I see the kids on the town/school team that stand out and it is because these kids are playing club, I see the kids on the field for town/school ball and there is a massive difference in athletic ability. It is very hard for a town/school team to put together an elite group of kids because they have boundries or limited number of kids to draw from. Meanwhile a club team can pick the top one or two (or none) from of each town team to put together a roster. Of course every town team would like to be west islip, but they are not and should welcome and encourage the travel atheletes and try to build on top of that. I bet you many of these programs would actually deteriorate by banning the travel programs. The kids would very rarely see the level of competition they see at the tournaments, it's kinda like home-schooling.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Anonymous] #4454
10/11/11 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I think you missed his point entirely, unless I am reading this wrong he is saying that the HS coach is still the main conduit to the college coaches for recruiting but they are seeing the players in the Summer with their select team, you are both saying the same thing that college coaches do not scout HS regular season games, to the point of the HS program still being important there are plenty of scouts at Stony Brook and Hofstra for the county championships so if you get to the championship game because you played together all summer and fall to make your school team better you are now in the Long Island Championship game in front of 100 college coaches then not only have you helped yourself but you have also helped your teammates and friends, there is nothing the matter with having a primary goal to win help your school win a HS championship as opposed to your primary goal is to get into a college for lacrosse.
No, BOTC did not miss the point and it is why we disagree. In short, the High School coach is NOT the main conduit for college coach access for some simple reasons. Off-Island college coaches will not travel to Long Island for a High School Varsity match during their own regular Spring season - period. As for "scouts" at Hofstra and Stony Brook at the Long Island Championships, you get us the listing of those schools and we will publish it from the rafters here on BOTC. We will guarantee you that you could draw a 30 mile ring around either of those two colleges and the coaches will all reside within that ring. This is not a regional tournament and without that regional pull, you are not attracting "100 college coaches".

We agree that playing for your school has HUGE value for your High School profile beyond lacrosse and specifically shows engagement with your High School and School Spirit. However that is NOT the discussion at hand. We are discussing the role of the High School coach in lacrosse recruitment and BOTC takes the position that the recruitment is driven through the premier clubs.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Anonymous] #4455
10/11/11 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Often, how good a town team and school team are, seems to be a reflection of how many top level players they have on the team that were developed and fed through the travel or club teams. Each boys and girls have certain schools that are successful and independant examples of good training and development. I would be extremely upset if my son or daughter's town/school team tried to block them from playing travel/club ball.
BOTC completely agrees with this view.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The truth is, I see the kids on the town/school team that stand out and it is because these kids are playing club, I see the kids on the field for town/school ball and there is a massive difference in athletic ability.
Again, we agree. This is where premier and elite lacrosse programs are pushing the sport at the youth level. As we have said, fifteen years back, soccer was similarly just seeing the dawn of real premier caliber, cross-state leagues. Lacrosse, due in part to the expense of constant summer tournaments and vague competition levels, will come to the conclusion within the next three to five years that an organized premier level of competition will be a better solution for the top clubs.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
It is very hard for a town/school team to put together an elite group of kids because they have boundries or limited number of kids to draw from. Meanwhile a club team can pick the top one or two (or none) from of each town team to put together a roster.
Hence, the root of the "town" versus "elite" label.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Of course every town team would like to be west islip, but they are not and should welcome and encourage the travel atheletes and try to build on top of that. I bet you many of these programs would actually deteriorate by banning the travel programs. The kids would very rarely see the level of competition they see at the tournaments, it's kinda like home-schooling.
BOTC agrees that the elite clubs are training players at a higher level and on a more regular basis (year-round, hence the initial posting on this thread). Elite clubs operate year-round due to the financial aspect of running a business; the beneficiary is the High School Varsity and Junior Varsity programs that are inheriting these well-trained, top players. Town team players generally wind up with a background role. The Newsday coverage will focus on the powerhouse High Schools and you will find over time that more and more of those top teams will have the top players who are all part of elite programs. Again coming back to the original opinion piece in this thread, it explains why town teams will be relegated to developmental roles in the intramural years as the next five years unfold.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: CageSage] #4456
10/11/11 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I think you missed his point entirely, unless I am reading this wrong he is saying that the HS coach is still the main conduit to the college coaches for recruiting but they are seeing the players in the Summer with their select team, you are both saying the same thing that college coaches do not scout HS regular season games, to the point of the HS program still being important there are plenty of scouts at Stony Brook and Hofstra for the county championships so if you get to the championship game because you played together all summer and fall to make your school team better you are now in the Long Island Championship game in front of 100 college coaches then not only have you helped yourself but you have also helped your teammates and friends, there is nothing the matter with having a primary goal to win help your school win a HS championship as opposed to your primary goal is to get into a college for lacrosse.
No, BOTC did not miss the point and it is why we disagree. In short, the High School coach is NOT the main conduit for college coach access for some simple reasons. Off-Island college coaches will not travel to Long Island for a High School Varsity match during their own regular Spring season - period. As for "scouts" at Hofstra and Stony Brook at the Long Island Championships, you get us the listing of those schools and we will publish it from the rafters here on BOTC. We will guarantee you that you could draw a 30 mile ring around either of those two colleges and the coaches will all reside within that ring. This is not a regional tournament and without that regional pull, you are not attracting "100 college coaches".

We agree that playing for your school has HUGE value for your High School profile beyond lacrosse and specifically shows engagement with your High School and School Spirit. However that is NOT the discussion at hand. We are discussing the role of the High School coach in lacrosse recruitment and BOTC takes the position that the recruitment is driven through the premier clubs.


listen to the people that have been through the process and not to the youth lacrosse corporations that sponsor you and pay your bills, an example, this year is a kid who has never played for a corporate team and only his town team and has verbally committed to a top Ivy League School. based on his High School career and being seen at a lacrosse recruiting camp that he attended on a recommendation from his HIGH SCHOOL coach - you have started a very interesting thread but this is an exchange of ideas, don't take it so personally when people have different opinions, kids are still recruited through their HS coaches, this does not mean that college coaches are going to high school games it means that if they are interested they talk to the HS coaches to gauge interest, get unofficial transcripts and in some cases video, and just because you are sponsored by these youth lacrosse corporations does not mean the high school coach is no longer involved in the recruiting process. your attempt to minimize the HS coach is silly and make you look uninformed.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Anonymous] #4459
10/11/11 06:52 PM
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Every lacrosse player I know who has been recruited has been recruited through showcases with his or her club team. That is my experience.

In the example you cite, you state the coach referred his player to a recuitment camp. I don't consider that being very involved in the recruitment process. Then you state that the college coaches reach out to the HS coaches, which again, is not the HS coach actively working on recruitment for the students. Parents, IME, drive a lot of the recruiting process, FAR more than HS coaches.

My feeling is that unless your team goes to states there is going to be little attention paid to it by colleges, and even then it's going to be primarily local coaches.

But hey, I'm all ears. If a bunch of people chime in here with stories of HS coaches proactively working on getting their players recruited, I'm all ears. And ready to let my kid's coach know. Haha.

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Re: Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse [Re: Powderfinger] #4461
10/11/11 08:20 PM
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My son was recruited as he was seen at 2 different recruiting camps by the same college coach. These camps are by HS coach recommendation only. Not to say that it was tremendously "involved" but that's where it starts.

Just like the powerhouse HS teams get noticed so do the powerhouse Elite teams. Interesting to note that the powerhouse HS teams in Nassau have multiple players on multiple Elite teams. Seems to me these coaches will put personal agenda's aside to put the best team on the field. Shame on the town programs strong arming their players. There is also a substantial number of competent players on HS Teams that will never see a county championship. Go with what works for your child

Without question the most "involved" people are the parents and players themselves. In the end, there is always someone as good or better than your child. It comes down to grades and what you can afford. Lacrosse is an excellent opportunity to broaden your college selection. It also affords instant comradery for your child when they get there. Injuries end lacrosse careers, coaches switch programs, and schools change their athletic departments all the time. The best advice I was ever given was to be sure the player will be happy at the school even if they were NOT playing lacrosse.

If you can get an honest assessment of your child's ability, you will be better prepared to choose the right school. Education is still the primary purpose of going to college, right?

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