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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352868 10/14/21 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!
Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352870 10/14/21 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!

In tournaments, it's not even (always) holdbacks. One team from VA, Norfolk Collegiate (aka "757 select") enters into tournaments with wishy washy age/grade language on purpose. In fact the language for the upcoming Madlax tournament, "If your roster is a mix of more than 1 graduating year, register your team for the graduating year where *the majority of players are* "

In the case of 757 Select, that meant that last summer at a tourney, according to their parents on the sidelines, the 2027 team was primarily 2027s with some 2026s and 2025s mixed in (to make it worse, they played in a combined 2027-2028 bracket against 2028-29 teams). And if you think it's legit to have 14 year olds playing against 10 year olds, OK then. Those 14 year olds' parents were super proud of their championship lol. Way to beat the 5th graders!

Their 2026 team was primarily 2026s with some 2025s and 2024s!

Their 2028 team was primarily 2028s but almost half 2027s.

When I saw this fall's Madlax tourney liability waiver language, "Graduation age of the majority of your team" I screenshot it and sent it to some other dads for the LOLz and said, "Hey it's for those 757 guys!" Somebody texted back.........."Sure is......they registered for this tournament!" So in their case, they're out there LOOKING for opportunities to dodge graduation year requirements with their squads.

If you asked their coaches, I'm sure they would say, "we don't have holdbacks in southern VA, this is how we equalize the playing field against all the MD teams with holdbacks."

This is where the holdback situation is going if it's not addressed. CA and TX clubs, as they become a "market force" for the tournament economy, are not going to sit by and take it, flying up to MD and NJ to play kids consistently 1-2 years older than theirs.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352875 10/14/21 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!

In tournaments, it's not even (always) holdbacks. One team from VA, Norfolk Collegiate (aka "757 select") enters into tournaments with wishy washy age/grade language on purpose. In fact the language for the upcoming Madlax tournament, "If your roster is a mix of more than 1 graduating year, register your team for the graduating year where *the majority of players are* "

In the case of 757 Select, that meant that last summer at a tourney, according to their parents on the sidelines, the 2027 team was primarily 2027s with some 2026s and 2025s mixed in (to make it worse, they played in a combined 2027-2028 bracket against 2028-29 teams). And if you think it's legit to have 14 year olds playing against 10 year olds, OK then. Those 14 year olds' parents were super proud of their championship lol. Way to beat the 5th graders!

Their 2026 team was primarily 2026s with some 2025s and 2024s!

Their 2028 team was primarily 2028s but almost half 2027s.

When I saw this fall's Madlax tourney liability waiver language, "Graduation age of the majority of your team" I screenshot it and sent it to some other dads for the LOLz and said, "Hey it's for those 757 guys!" Somebody texted back.........."Sure is......they registered for this tournament!" So in their case, they're out there LOOKING for opportunities to dodge graduation year requirements with their squads.

If you asked their coaches, I'm sure they would say, "we don't have holdbacks in southern VA, this is how we equalize the playing field against all the MD teams with holdbacks."

This is where the holdback situation is going if it's not addressed. CA and TX clubs, as they become a "market force" for the tournament economy, are not going to sit by and take it, flying up to MD and NJ to play kids consistently 1-2 years older than theirs.

Absolutely! It is time for US Lacrosse to step up!! Address the “holdback” situation and change the youth lacrosse rules to age based! It is getting totally out of control now. Everyone running with their own rules out there and you get 13 yr olds playing 10 yr. Olds! It’s totally Ridiculous!!! And, only getting worse!

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352878 10/14/21 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!
Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

Sure. Every kid that holds back is the next Cole Herbert. Just like every kid that swings a decent golf club at age 4 is the next Tiger Woods.

Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation and causation are often confused because the human mind likes to find patterns even when they DO NOT exist.

I've seen it in the league for the past decade+. There are way more holdback struggles and washouts than Cole Herberts.

It's a major reality check when these holdbacks go from competing against mostly younger kids in Middle School to mostly older kids in High School. They more often than not struggle and it happens in high school.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352894 10/14/21 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!
Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

Sure. Every kid that holds back is the next Cole Herbert. Just like every kid that swings a decent golf club at age 4 is the next Tiger Woods.

Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation and causation are often confused because the human mind likes to find patterns even when they DO NOT exist.

I've seen it in the league for the past decade+. There are way more holdback struggles and washouts than Cole Herberts.

It's a major reality check when these holdbacks go from competing against mostly younger kids in Middle School to mostly older kids in High School. They more often than not struggle and it happens in high school.

Great argument if you are talking about when there was only 1 or 2 holdbacks in MS going into HS playing against older kids. Reality is, soon it will be the majority of kids wanting to play at a higher level will be holdbacks. More HS kids will be holdbacks as well!! It’s getting out of control.

Developing years should be aged based and the cream will rise to the top in HS. Just make it a fair playing field in the developing youth years. Give the kids a chance to develop at the same ages. Plenty sports are age based at the youth level. It’s the right way to do it!

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Re: holdbacks
TM@BOTC #352898 10/14/21 11:04 AM
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Cole Herbert would be fine playing up. But obviously, not every kid is Cole Herbert. Last year there were 41 freshmen lacrosse players at Calvert Hall and just 13 seniors. So what, approx 70% of the lacrosse players there wash out? And a lot of them are holdbacks.

Holding your kid back is fool's gold. It's a recipe for dominating in middle school and struggling in high school, when the built-in advantage is gone.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352900 10/14/21 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Cole Herbert would be fine playing up. But obviously, not every kid is Cole Herbert. Last year there were 41 freshmen lacrosse players at Calvert Hall and just 13 seniors. So what, approx 70% of the lacrosse players there wash out? And a lot of them are holdbacks.

Holding your kid back is fool's gold. It's a recipe for dominating in middle school and struggling in high school, when the built-in advantage is gone.

My oldest is still young (not a hold back), but weren't kids able to commit to colleges in 8th grade not too long ago? With that now pushed back to 11th grade, I would think that this should slowly reduce holdbacks, but maybe I am wrong.

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Re: holdbacks
TM@BOTC #352901 10/14/21 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!
Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

Sure. Every kid that holds back is the next Cole Herbert. Just like every kid that swings a decent golf club at age 4 is the next Tiger Woods.

Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation and causation are often confused because the human mind likes to find patterns even when they DO NOT exist.

I've seen it in the league for the past decade+. There are way more holdback struggles and washouts than Cole Herberts.

It's a major reality check when these holdbacks go from competing against mostly younger kids in Middle School to mostly older kids in High School. They more often than not struggle and it happens in high school.

Great argument if you are talking about when there was only 1 or 2 holdbacks in MS going into HS playing against older kids. Reality is, soon it will be the majority of kids wanting to play at a higher level will be holdbacks. More HS kids will be holdbacks as well!! It’s getting out of control.

Developing years should be aged based and the cream will rise to the top in HS. Just make it a fair playing field in the developing youth years. Give the kids a chance to develop at the same ages. Plenty sports are age based at the youth level. It’s the right way to do it!

CH has a huge varsity roster. Bigger than most colleges at 53 kids. Teams usually only play about 20-24 kids in competitive games. So most of those kids don't get much playing time.

At some point the kids who are just bigger or more coordinated in MS earlier wash out. Most of them hit their peak much earlier.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352916 10/14/21 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!
Hmmm…Cole Herbert from CHC…never saw a non-athletic coward when he is on the field for CHC or UNC. That’s just one example out of a couple hundred of how ludicrous your statement is.

Sure. Every kid that holds back is the next Cole Herbert. Just like every kid that swings a decent golf club at age 4 is the next Tiger Woods.

Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation and causation are often confused because the human mind likes to find patterns even when they DO NOT exist.

I've seen it in the league for the past decade+. There are way more holdback struggles and washouts than Cole Herberts.

It's a major reality check when these holdbacks go from competing against mostly younger kids in Middle School to mostly older kids in High School. They more often than not struggle and it happens in high school.

Great argument if you are talking about when there was only 1 or 2 holdbacks in MS going into HS playing against older kids. Reality is, soon it will be the majority of kids wanting to play at a higher level will be holdbacks. More HS kids will be holdbacks as well!! It’s getting out of control.

Developing years should be aged based and the cream will rise to the top in HS. Just make it a fair playing field in the developing youth years. Give the kids a chance to develop at the same ages. Plenty sports are age based at the youth level. It’s the right way to do it!

CH has a huge varsity roster. Bigger than most colleges at 53 kids. Teams usually only play about 20-24 kids in competitive games. So most of those kids don't get much playing time.

At some point the kids who are just bigger or more coordinated in MS earlier wash out. Most of them hit their peak much earlier.

Aside from the holdback BS that US Lax really needs to fix....CHC kids should consider looking at other schools so they can actually get on the field and play so they can get better. There is lots of talent on the depth chart from 20-30 that could play/start elsewhere in MIAA. This has been going on for way too many years. Parents wake up!!!

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352924 10/14/21 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Aside from the holdback BS that US Lax really needs to fix....CHC kids should consider looking at other schools so they can actually get on the field and play so they can get better. There is lots of talent on the depth chart from 20-30 that could play/start elsewhere in MIAA. This has been going on for way too many years. Parents wake up!!!

You have to make an impression as a freshman, or it's tough to climb out of the hole.
I know of at least one kid who went to CH and got buried on the depth chart early due to the opinions of a F/Soph or JV coach.
His sophomore year he didnt make JV. He had to play F/S again. He transferred to a "bottom half" team his JR year and ended up being 2nd team All Metro in the Baltimore Sun.
Forget these places with a million kids. I'm sending my kids to where they have a better chance of playing.

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Re: holdbacks
TM@BOTC #352968 10/14/21 08:24 PM
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Where are Calvert Hall's dorms? Several kids from CO and others from Michigan, TX, SC, VA, southern MD, Pittsburgh.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352979 10/14/21 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Where are Calvert Hall's dorms? Several kids from CO and others from Michigan, TX, SC, VA, southern MD, Pittsburgh.

You will see that a many of the holdbacks from 2022 posing at 2023s at Duke and UNC and other top programs will be bench riders most of the time they are there. It helps to have dads in the game, but it wont get you playing time.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352985 10/15/21 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!

In tournaments, it's not even (always) holdbacks. One team from VA, Norfolk Collegiate (aka "757 select") enters into tournaments with wishy washy age/grade language on purpose. In fact the language for the upcoming Madlax tournament, "If your roster is a mix of more than 1 graduating year, register your team for the graduating year where *the majority of players are* "

In the case of 757 Select, that meant that last summer at a tourney, according to their parents on the sidelines, the 2027 team was primarily 2027s with some 2026s and 2025s mixed in (to make it worse, they played in a combined 2027-2028 bracket against 2028-29 teams). And if you think it's legit to have 14 year olds playing against 10 year olds, OK then. Those 14 year olds' parents were super proud of their championship lol. Way to beat the 5th graders!

Their 2026 team was primarily 2026s with some 2025s and 2024s!

Their 2028 team was primarily 2028s but almost half 2027s.

When I saw this fall's Madlax tourney liability waiver language, "Graduation age of the majority of your team" I screenshot it and sent it to some other dads for the LOLz and said, "Hey it's for those 757 guys!" Somebody texted back.........."Sure is......they registered for this tournament!" So in their case, they're out there LOOKING for opportunities to dodge graduation year requirements with their squads.

If you asked their coaches, I'm sure they would say, "we don't have holdbacks in southern VA, this is how we equalize the playing field against all the MD teams with holdbacks."

This is where the holdback situation is going if it's not addressed. CA and TX clubs, as they become a "market force" for the tournament economy, are not going to sit by and take it, flying up to MD and NJ to play kids consistently 1-2 years older than theirs.

If they had a 2027 team with 14 year olds as you say playing 2028/29 teams - who was the 2028 team playing?

These are rather hefty accusations on this team that I’ve never heard of but I’m trying to follow.

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Re: holdbacks
Anonymous #352995 10/15/21 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
holdbacks may be within the rules but they are mostly non-athletic cowards. Everyone knows it. It's why the holdback parents here always deny it or make excuses about it.
Listen to them dance around it in the stands- It's hilarious!

In tournaments, it's not even (always) holdbacks. One team from VA, Norfolk Collegiate (aka "757 select") enters into tournaments with wishy washy age/grade language on purpose. In fact the language for the upcoming Madlax tournament, "If your roster is a mix of more than 1 graduating year, register your team for the graduating year where *the majority of players are* "

In the case of 757 Select, that meant that last summer at a tourney, according to their parents on the sidelines, the 2027 team was primarily 2027s with some 2026s and 2025s mixed in (to make it worse, they played in a combined 2027-2028 bracket against 2028-29 teams). And if you think it's legit to have 14 year olds playing against 10 year olds, OK then. Those 14 year olds' parents were super proud of their championship lol. Way to beat the 5th graders!

Their 2026 team was primarily 2026s with some 2025s and 2024s!

Their 2028 team was primarily 2028s but almost half 2027s.

When I saw this fall's Madlax tourney liability waiver language, "Graduation age of the majority of your team" I screenshot it and sent it to some other dads for the LOLz and said, "Hey it's for those 757 guys!" Somebody texted back.........."Sure is......they registered for this tournament!" So in their case, they're out there LOOKING for opportunities to dodge graduation year requirements with their squads.

If you asked their coaches, I'm sure they would say, "we don't have holdbacks in southern VA, this is how we equalize the playing field against all the MD teams with holdbacks."

This is where the holdback situation is going if it's not addressed. CA and TX clubs, as they become a "market force" for the tournament economy, are not going to sit by and take it, flying up to MD and NJ to play kids consistently 1-2 years older than theirs.

If they had a 2027 team with 14 year olds as you say playing 2028/29 teams - who was the 2028 team playing?

These are rather hefty accusations on this team that I’ve never heard of but I’m trying to follow.

The 757 2028 team was a mix of 2027s and 2028s......and they struggled with 2028 competition. The parents seemed pretty at home with the fact that they "always travel together" and it's "always been a multiple year team." The 2028 team (2028s and 2027s) had to play their 2027 (2027+2026+2025) team due to the joined 2027-2028 brackets and the 2028 parents seemed pretty sour over it .

The 2027 parents (this is July 2021) talked about some of their kids being 13 and 14 and "the end of middle school" etc.

It's really not a "club team" per se but a way to get the school's teams together to travel and get exposure, acc to a 2027 parent I talked to. And again, I get the fact that they BELIEVE at the A/B level, they are competing with massive numbers of MD holdbacks at the middle school level, which I don't think is the case (I don't think Zingos kids planning to play at Centennial are reclassing lol). So that's their justification.........find tournaments with weak language about grad year breakouts. It's the next logical step.

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Re: holdbacks
TM@BOTC #353050 10/15/21 12:48 PM
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I would say somewhere between 40-60% of the best players in the MIAA the last decade were holdbacks. Almost all the stars in the 2020 class were.

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