US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2022- 7th Grade Fall 2016/ Summer 2017

I absolutely disagree with this statement - "The college coaches recruiting your kid only want to see freshman play against freshman not 15 year old play against 15 year old." In NY, in the summer, a freshman/rising soph will be a youngish 15 year old, or 14 but close to turning 15. But yet most other hotbed states use a school age system that makes their kids a bit older, and if the kid is a holdback, that compounds it. Thus, it would not be uncommon for a freshman/rising soph from MD or MA to be, say, a summer birthday kid who turned 17 a few weeks before the event. This can be a huge difference for most kids. If the 17 yo (albeit a young 17) is dominating the young 15 yo (or maybe old 14 yo), is it because he is better, or is it simply because he is older. The college coaches don't care how good you when they are looking at you. They only care how good you will be when you are in college. They are in the projection business. They are trying to identify kids who project to be great college players when they are older. If kids are two years (or more) apart in age, at a time when the younger kid is not yet physically mature, then how in the world can you protect whether either of them will be great when they are men and age differences mean almost nothing. If I am a college coach, I want to watch apples play apples and oranges play oranges, which means have the kids go up against kids their same age. Then I will have a better idea who has game. And even then, I will have to use my noodle, because amongst 15 year olds, I will take special notice of a kid who looks very good but still has the body of a 12 year old. I would expect a higher upside for that kid.

not wrong...friends son on the team and the parents completely complained about it !!! so your wrong ! now igloo doing the same thing ! typical hypocrisy..

well said and such an easy concept...

The big reason/difference is that in Hockey the end of the rainbow is the NHL draft and it is age based were as the pot of gold in lacrosse is the verbal commitment to a roster spot and admissions and that is grade based. I am not saying this is good or bad, just that it is what it is.

People that don’t want to talk about reality or shine light on the extent of this [lacrosse]-backward system like to conflate issues. What does college recruitment and even HS play have to do with how youth sports should be organized as far down the line as 3rd grade and even younger? The fact is - for “2022” boys (at least in the state of NY) a player who is turning 15 within a week will be just fine for HS sports unless things have changed. Most on age kids are 13 and the USLax age cut off has another 2 months to go before some 12 year olds even turn 13. So this July you WILL have a younger 2022 still 12 playing against an older “2022” who can already be 15 and the older boy is in no jeopardy as far as HS sports are concerned. I know I am taking extremes, but the extreme case is greater than 2 full years. The regular reality is that the difference is generally closer to 2 years than 1. So please with the its only 1 yr.

If things ever went age based, “uber elite” players could always play up and then they and they alone would have to deal with the consequences of their decisions not everyone else. Someone please make the argument that this system is better. You won't because you can't - so you'll resort to name calling, insulting me and/or my kid, blah blah blah... As if anyone cares about the insults from an anonymous blog. Save it - only one side of this argument has any merit the other is just a round about way of saying - "that's the way it is and for some of us it's currently advantageous so we like it".

Inflating numbers doesn't help your point. If one is a holdback, he is likely a summer birthday so up to 15 months different, and that is only for the very young 2022. Those are likely 0-5 on a team. The kid that is 2 years older (or greater like you said) just isn't out there. Sure you heard about 1 kid somewhere so I'll give you there might be 1 or 2 in an entire league or tournament, but probably zero. I'm not saying grade is better than age based or vice versa. But if you don't like the system petition the league, club, tournament directors, etc. to have it changed. Just don't make up excuses and say that other teams are all holdbacks 2 years older than another team or make assumptions about how old a kid is based on size. And don't call people cheaters that are playing by the rules of the league or tournament you are choosing to pay and have your kid participate in.

It is all grad year based to make it easier for college coaches to evaluate kids for different incoming classes. That's why no one plays up. Now that the colleges have 3 less years of kids to worry about there is no excuse to use grade based through middle school. No college coach is even looking at 7th or 8th graders anymore. (Just look at the sidelines of these "recruiting" tournaments for 7th and 8th graders - no folding chairs at all)

Clubs and tourneys need to implement the age cutoffs until high school starts.

Is there any truth that in NY a senior in HS cannot turn 19 before the day of graduation or they are not permitted to participate in athletics?

Go back an read what was initially written.

A.) I never made up an excuse for anything.
B.) I never said “all holdbacks” were 2 years older – I simply pointed out that under the current system they can be in “extreme” cases - without putting HS in jeopardy.
C.) I never mentioned size once.
D.) I never called anyone a cheater for exploiting the rules to their advantage – I just pointed out that the current system allows them to exploit the rules to begin with and the ones that do it are very happy with the status quo. That’s not calling you a cheater – I guess I’m calling you an exploiter – better?

See - when you say that you’re not saying grade is better than age based you are actually telling us all exactly where you stand – doesn’t take a genius to make that read. I can’t help it if you don’t want to recognize the reality - which is many times the difference in age between a true holdback and a younger kid on age for his grade is closer to 2 years than 1. It is the reality - especially when you start playing teams from other states with other school calendars to begin with and they add on their 3 or 4 months for Jr. because “he wasn’t really ready for kindergarten at the time – so we thought it was best to give him another year to mature”. If you really believe what you wrote - you should do a little digging about what “holdbacks” really are – they ain’t only a few months for a kid with a summer birthday here and there. And for you guys who’s first kid this is you are in for a treat – this year coming up is a very special and fun year for your son – he’s going to have a bunch of new classmates. “ Jr. just wasn’t ready for HS (for some made up reason or another) so he’s going to repeat 8th Grade for academics or for a little more maturity” - so on top of the holdbacks - next summer your son gets to begin enjoying even more “re-classes”. Great system for youth sports – total Joke.

If your kid likes this game and shows any real promise where maybe he can play at the college level – get him to a proper teaching environment, tell him to hit the books as hard as he hits the gym. He can get there without this garbage – that’s the great big secret nobody wants you to know. You don’t actually need to do any of this nonsense if you play for a good HS team and have great grades. So - regardless of the age differences, the scores of these games and what club your son was or wasn’t on when he was in the 7th or 8th grade means absolute squat. My initial point was and remains this is a jackass way to organize youth sports and nobody has stated one valid reason why it isn't. I am going to go petition my club and all the tournament directors I can think of – so I’m signing off. Done wasting my time on this - but it’s been sort of fun.

Many are one to three months older but rules are rules .

Stop igloo dad your not fooling anyone. I know parents at igloo too and the decision was a big issue for them.

Easy there. I think you need to reread what was written. You said in extreme cases but also said "many times the difference in age between a true holdback and a younger kid on age for his grade is closer to 2 years than 1." which isn't true. You call it garbage, nonsense and jackass way to organize. Yet you pay into it. Why not just do rec if that's how you feel? Good luck with your petition, I hope you're successful. PS my kid isn't a holdback. Just tired of the complaining.

TB stay on the porch with the B ball

I live in Maryland and this is holdback central . This is the private school game pre k then reclass later for boys. Theirs a lot of those kids ...

Is this why you don't see these teams at the WSYL. I know the Diamondbacks are going and Crabs went to the inaugural one, that's it.

No it's because WSYL changed the rule after tryouts. So teams picked kids based on one set of rules and then it was changed. So those teams chose not to change their teams based on one tournament that has changed its rules every year.

Rumor has it that next year the cut off date will change from Sept 1st to July1 st.

im sure it was ...lol

Lie I said. It will be the norm, trust me. They will run these teams in the future as separate teams. Separate tryouts, separate practices and extra fees. And that way there will be no whinning about some kid that is replaced for an younger kid in the grade above. All.good from where I sit. You play win a tourney like this.

Safe travels and good luck to all attending WSYL this weekend. Our team chose not to go, but I hope it's a great experience for all involved. Will be watching on TV.

I really think the Millon Championship will continue to grow and wsyl will continue to have fewer and fewer of the top teams.

Interesting. But where do people get these rumors from?

Millon will do a national championship for 2022 and 2024, which are the two years his sons play. He will not expand it bryond those two years. WSYL will continue to be a U13 showcasing vehicle.

With the new recruiting rules, there will probably be some U15 championship that will be hyped like the World Series is. And nobody on these boards will agree that it is set up correctly.

The Maryland teams like Hawks which is the best grade team this year has 5 holdbacks, the crabs same , Fca the same , Bethesda 4 ,Roughriders 3...also some A teams . That is why they can't go to many holdbacks and they wouldn't be good with out them...Don't let them tell you different ... million's tournament is to be holdback central . Remember these are best teams because their players older and play down to be good. It's very sad

I have disagree. WSYL has the same founders and sponsors of the MLL. I think it's going to be around with that type of influence. Everyone on this blog will be watching the final or dvring it. Why? It's really cool that the kids get this opportunity. Millon, high quality tourney, but that's it. This has branding and PR opportunity for a club that translates to revenue. The WSYL will grow. The Crabs, Madlax, Laxachusetts and others will jump on board at some point.

That logic is not in the spirit of the games. Teams are supposed to compete, not a group of boys (in the case of Igloo and Legacy, a handful high school-bound players on each) who are recruited to join a middle school team just for one tournament. I imagine that this assembly of boys for both programs did not play in any other games, leagues, tournaments but WSYL. Just put a roster together for one tournament. That is not what the overwhelming majority of participating programs did, rather they chose to compete as the true teams that they are, which is both honorable and respectable.

Hawks only has 4 kids older than 9/1 cutoff. 3 of the 4 would have been able to play wsyl last year when they had a 5/1 cutoff but couldn't this year because of wsyl last minute age requirement change.

As long as wsyl has age requirements different than the vast majority of teams, they will be a 2nd rate tournament. Either the teams will have to change to match wsyl or wsyl will have to change to match the teams to be considered a legitimate championship.

Hopefully, the teams change to match WSYL.

When you say the wsyl has "age requirements different than the vast majority of the teams" - do you mean that the wsyl has actual age requirements and that these teams have specified age requirements that are just different? Or do you mean that wsyl age requirements just don't line up with the ages of the players on these teams because they are older?

Junkyard Willie be back. Y'all just a bunch a jive turkeys. Talking bout we did this and dat. We ain't dun nothin but cause beef in a forum. Kids be playin and u ain't. Jive turkey flapping off at da lip

18-6 Diamonbag daddy

I hope igloo wins WS because their reputation already lost. Stuffing a team for one tournament teaches the wrong lesson to a "team". Legal? Yes. Ethical? No.

I think certain people are scared to death that you're right... and I think you are. Such a small group has had their way for a long time and can see it slipping away.

"spirit of the game"... honor and respect.... there is none of this in the current grade-based system, nor is there true fair competition. You like it the way it is, fine, but to call the status quo "honorable and respectable" is such a farce.

Surprised that Igloo/ Cromwell would do this. Is this true?

I'm sure it wasn't Cromwell's fault. That came from the top. AA

The WSYL require a team to play in two tournaments after the qualifier. How did this Igloo team with Black ice players satisfy this requirement? Lost all respect for this program.

respect is earned and igloo never had it

Uh, brainiac. Igloo has grade based teams but for this one event Igloo has a WSYL team. They train together all-year (in addition to) the grade based team they are part of...and then they have additional practices for the WYSL age-based team. They do double duty. A lot of lax.

How did they satisfy the requirement? When a weekend was open for all WSYL players to go to a tourney outside their main grade based team, the WSYL team played in tournaments. Is it that hard to understand?

WSYL is an age-based tourney...CHECK THIS OUT, YOU MAY UNDERSTAND.

https://youtu.be/mlv7Bp-L2MM