US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Greater Howard Club Lacrosse Conference (HoCo)

absolutely happened, kids asked to repeat 8th

This is the dumbest discussion. Maybe RM does what you say, maybe he does not; but those parents, not me, must, decide to have a son repeat a grade.

A parent of a former 2020 Crab player told me that they were told by the coaches that their son couldn't stay with the Crabs but he would have to repeat a grade and move to the 2021 team. Now, maybe that parent was lying, but this is what they told me. They also said the reason was there were kids joining the 2020 team that had previously been on their 2019 team. That is pure craziness, people repeating a grade just to look better than they are in youth lacrosse.

the year Crabs 2020 beat 91 Crush at the Beach Lax final, there were about 5 kids from the 2019 team who came down and played that day. When 8th grade finishes school that's when they can reclass and switch teams.

Crabs coaches have most definitely encouraged families to reclass their kid.

I agree that ultimately it is the parents decision to reclass their kid. However, when the club coach tells you your kid is not going to make the team and won't get the attention of college coaches - BUT - would absolutely get an offer from UNC, Hopkins, etc. if he repeated a grade -THAT is on club owner - and THAT is what the Crabs are about. Selling the dream and damaging youth lacrosse at the same time.

The fact that any of you are surprised by this is laughable.

Its laughable and sad as RM and Crabs are one of the drivers for the mess we have now called grade based club lacrosse. Letting select kids play down prior to school teams is wrong. Listen to his interview in with Balt channel 2 " in the crease" . Snake oil salesman at its finest.

Why hasn't MM been kicked out of the HoCo league for telling his kids to break the other kids' arms?

If the leagues did an exact birth year age bracket system, it would take about 1 minute for some parent to complain that a kid is 11 months older than their kid. The late birthers would be accused of planning pregnancies to game the system.

it works in most other sports, it would work in lax. the only parent complaining would be the ones forced to have their kids play on age rather than down.

Spoken like an true apologist for holdbacks. Only people complaining would be the parents of the holdbacks. They would have to play at their age bracket. Cant have that.. Need an advantage other players exact same birthday dont get.

I like the idea of 6 month age bracket vs. a full year. It keeps the kids developmentally closer together.

Perfect..That along with certain weights and heights. 5000 different leagues each year..

Grade base along with some age restrictions like maybe May 1? or June 1? cutoff. That along with ANYONE who wants to play down with a Birthday after May 1/June 1 can just like the holdbacks do. That would put an end to all these older teams and stop people ( rightly so) of complaining that why do these select kids get an advantage when others dont. Certain teams attract majority of holdbacks. Now anyone who wants can play at that age, can. Many wouldnt do it and some may take advantage of it. But this would level the playing field at YOUTH CLUB level. With ER not happening in 8th-9th grade anymore having exact grades of players isnt as important. Of course it will never happen.

Any parent with the least bit of common sense can understand that there will be age differences in HOCO. The problem is (and why USL is pushing for age based classification) is that organizations like Crabs are abusing the system. When virtually your entire starting line up in the 8th grade is full of 15 year olds - some who will turn 16 before Christmas of their Freshman year you have dramatic difference in the physical/mental development of the kids on the field. It's unfair and unsafe.

The reason it is unsafe is that refs don't call the game safely. There will alsway be size differences.

Refs never call Cross checks anymore. Every series there are blatant cross checks by every defense which are allowed.

Slashes to the legs are never called. Slashes to the arms and even backs are allowed even when it is obvious the defender is hitting no where near the kids stick.

Pushes are allowed as long as no one falls over.

Letting all these calls go leads to injuries.

No team cuts from tryouts based on age. Lower ranked teams would love to grab some older kids at tryouts, but most of the better players end up at higher ranked clubs.
MIAA sets the 19 year age eligibility limit for start of Senior year, so why are so many people surprised that pre-first and repeating in private are common. It's not about Crabs, FCA, or Looney's abusing anything, they just happen to get the best players, and some happen to be private kids that repeated at some point. USL is not a league, so why would anyone hold a private grade-based club league to a higher standard than the MIAA rules? It is not about "your" kid being the best at the youth level, it is about learning, developing, and getting better. They aren't going to change to age based, or else teams will get split up every year at the 8th to 9th grade levels. Even at age based, it would take the lacrosse equivalent of liberals about 1 minute to start complaining about kids 11 months older than their kids. It would never end, there will always be something to complain about.

My son has an August birthday, 12 yo on a 2022. I am fine with, and used to, him playing against other kids nearly a year older, on teams with normal age boys. The problem is playing against a hold back team, he is now competing against several players up to 2 years older, and possibly some even older than that. Yes, I call that unfair. I always say to him, the other team is not better, they are just older, just like you playing against your older brother. I stopped complaining because I do not expect anything to be done, at least before he is through high school and this mess. It will probably take an unfortuate death or severe injury, and a whopper of a lawsuit to make a true change. One silver lining is he is getting better playing against older kids. I am hoping it will be more honestly competetive in highschool when the growth rates level off, and the size difference due to age is less of an issue.

I do not blame the elite clubs for this practice. I believe this is due to the private school system. They have figured out a way to get gullible parents fork up another year of $15k+ tuition. The elite privates are under huge pressure to succeed in lacrosse, at least in MD. Having older kids on the team is an edge. So if I was a coach at one of these programs I would try to get my whole team held back. If the parents are willing to pay, why not? The elite clubs are just pipelines for these high schools. Thus the pressure on the incoming kids, parents and coaches on the pre-HS elite club teams to have their kid held back.

My son is happy, playing with his friends on a non-elite team.

You miss the point entirely. Who cares what the MIAA does. It is their business. And if they start a MIAA YOUTH league, go for grade base. Their middle schools teams do now. Look at BL, McD, etc.
We are talking about ALL YOUTH CLUB lacrosse until the 8th grade. We are talking YOUTH SPORTS.

When it YOUTH sports did it become ok to have select heldback 5th graders playing against 4th graders?? or teams of mostly 9th graders playing against teams of mostly 8th graders?? Really that is what we want in youth club lacrosse?? Spin it any way you want Youth sports was always made to play pre puberty at a age restrictions.

Then he is probably better off than 50% of the kids on the elite clubs who are not enjoying their experience.

Can the HoCo Dept of Recreation extend the league to 8 -10 weeks? A good team (that for example, missed players during spring break) with a 4-2 record will probably not make the playoffs, due to the short season.

This is the premier league for the region and when you have divisions with 10-12 teams, some teams end up playing really weak schedules which gives them an unfair advantage to get to the playoffs. I would think that it is better for each team in a division to play all of the teams in their division (at least once), so that the truly top team make the playoffs.

You miss the point entirely, actually. You are arguing against what currently exists, so the answer to your first question, is that is how it is now, assuming you are talking about grade-based club. You can't call a kid in the 8th grade a 9th grader, just because it fits your agenda. No, he is actually an 8th grader, if he is in 8th grade. You can call him old for typical public school 8th grader, but the league has rules, so it is not up to you to call someone something they are not. You don't have to like it, but an 8th grader that did pre-first is still an 8th grader. It's not spin; it's reality. If you get the rules changed back to age, than it will be like rec again, you are older one year, and younger the next. They aren't going to do a league for birth year, so careful what you wish for..

The end game is the same but the path changed. At least in revenue sports. It used to be, and still is other than lacrosse, talented players either attend a post high school prep year and/or redshirt first year of college. The Baltimore lacrosse clique figured out a way to spend the extra $25,000 for their child to do pre-first for early recruiting bragging rights.

At 6 years old, don't think so. What do the rest of the parents do it for, fun? It's a school curriculum, ding dong, you know like reading, math, stuff like that..

Any advantage - ding dong.

Is this your first time around youth sports?? Are you some recent private school parent of a prefirst kid??
When did age and rec go hand and hand as you state?? This grade based club lacrosse is only a few years old. Prior to that all youth Club and rec was age base. Are you aware of that?? Crabs had U15 , U13 top of the line age based Club teams just a few years ago. Crabs club High School lacrosse along with everyone else was always Grade based in prior years and is now as it should be.

Get what I wish for?? A simple U15, U14, U13 down to U9 would be a simple method for club lacrosse. The worlds largest sport soccer had a huge problem with cheating and kids playing down due to prefirst/failures/reclass/etc and guess what they did..Yea a simple age based by year with cards. No high competitive soccer games at any age level has any the garbage you hear at youth lacrosse levels about age difference and cheating.

Of course you are within the rules if your child is a holdback playing in his grade now.?? who said otherwise?? The rules letting teams of kids that should be in 5th grade but due to failure/prefirst/reclass are now in 4th grade play against teams of legal age 4th graders
( is that better for you) is not how youth sports was meant to be played. Common sense tells you that.

I am surprised some holdback apologist hasnt given us "that is what college coaches want for recruiting". That excuse is now lame as Early recruiting is now 11th grade as of April 26 .. That was the big reason grade based proponents wanted it. Thats gone..So come on give us some good reasons why ALL Club youth lacrosse need to be grade base instead of a simple U base? The rules? Help out all the private school prefirsts? Is this a MIAA youth league?? LOL..

Actually, a lot of people say that. I think that's what gets people so riled up about this issue. Call someone or their kid a "cheater" and watch what happens.

HoCo is a grade-based league. Here is the actual rule from the HoCo bylaws:



Key terms here:

• "A player's current grade level" meaning what grade is he in right now
• "normal progression" meaning when will he graduate relative to what grade he is in right now

Some people say that holdbacks/prefirsts are not following a normal progression. And while that might have been true when they started or when they were held back, what this really means within the scope of the rules is you can't, for example, be an 8th grader this year (should be playing 2021) but play on a 2022 team this year knowing that you'll be repeating 8th grade after this year.

I'm not saying this is "right" or this is the way the league should be run, but this is the way the league is run. My kid is a pre-pubescent 8th grader playing against some of those should-be 10th graders, so believe me, I get it. But until the recruiting landscape actually changes, it is what it is.

People talk "US Lacrosse this" and "US Lacrosse that." US Lacrosse has no power to do anything with local leagues. If a local league (like HoCo) wants to have its own rules, it is certainly free to do so. What HoCo can't do is rely on member clubs to be able to use US Lacrosse's insurance program... each club has to have their own liability insurance. That's really the only thing that US Lacrosse's rules are for... if your league uses their set of rules, your program can be covered under their umbrella.

Is this your first time around youth sports?? Are you some recent private school parent of a prefirst kid??
When did age and rec go hand and hand as you state?? This grade based club lacrosse is only a few years old. Prior to that all youth Club and rec was age base. Are you aware of that?? Crabs had U15 , U13 top of the line age based Club teams just a few years ago. Crabs club High School lacrosse along with everyone else was always Grade based in prior years and is now as it should be.

Get what I wish for?? A simple U15, U14, U13 down to U9 would be a simple method for club lacrosse. The worlds largest sport soccer had a huge problem with cheating and kids playing down due to prefirst/failures/reclass/etc and guess what they did..Yea a simple age based by year with cards. No high competitive soccer games at any age level has any the garbage you hear at youth lacrosse levels about age difference and cheating.

Of course you are within the rules if your child is a holdback playing in his grade now.?? who said otherwise?? The rules letting teams of kids that should be in 5th grade but due to failure/prefirst/reclass are now in 4th grade play against teams of legal age 4th graders
( is that better for you) is not how youth sports was meant to be played. Common sense tells you that.

I am surprised some holdback apologist hasnt given us "that is what college coaches want for recruiting". That excuse is now lame as Early recruiting is now 11th grade as of April 26 .. That was the big reason grade based proponents wanted it. Thats gone..So come on give us some good reasons why ALL Club youth lacrosse need to be grade base instead of a simple U base? The rules? Help out all the private school prefirsts? Is this a MIAA youth league?? LOL..
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Easy one, but you should know this with all of your superior youth sports knowledge. Youth lacrosse is less than half the size of soccer, even in this area. So that would be great in the few very densely populated suburban areas, but the overwhelming surrounding rural areas would not be able to support rec leagues with teams at every literal birth year. Club could do it and make it work, but their is no incentive, as there has been no problem filling up the one grad year team per grade to date. By middle school, even with the new legislation, top clubs want to build scout-able teams that are ready by HS, rather than having to rebuild starting at 9th grade. Not so simple, as you state, to compare the largest sport in the world, to essentially the smallest (but best!).

Your whole basis of argument is that public school curriculum should mandate a private club sports league. There is no "should be". Prefirst is a common curriculum in almost every private school now. Public schools are essentially third world institutions, with some minor exceptions, so let's please not use that as the gold standard to start mandating private (paid) anything.

Wow! How did you get that from all of the above?? HOCO league is a government run league by Howard County Recreation? It is obvious that they either wanted to curry favors from private schools or had prefirst children in private schools or ??. Why would they go grade base when ALL other HoCO leagues went by age? EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE EXCEPT LACROSSE!

I am very aware of prefirst as my children go to Private school. But I do have a higher thoughts on public education than you do. Some good some bad. But that has nothing to do with private youth lacrosse clubs and the leagues they are in. The issue is letting select youth kids play down due to being heldback while similar children with same exact birthday play at a different grouping ( grade above).

Easy one, but you should know this with all of your superior youth sports knowledge. Youth lacrosse is less than half the size of soccer, even in this area. So that would be great in the few very densely populated suburban areas, but the overwhelming surrounding rural areas would not be able to support rec leagues with teams at every literal birth year. Club could do it and make it work, but their is no incentive, as there has been no problem filling up the one grad year team per grade to date. By middle school, even with the new legislation, top clubs want to build scout-able teams that are ready by HS, rather than having to rebuild starting at 9th grade. Not so simple, as you state, to compare the largest sport in the world, to essentially the smallest (but best!).[/quote]

So are you saying it is easier to field club teams by every grade in sparsely populated areas than by U every year?? Not sure how that makes sense? In sparely populated areas the club team is the rec team or an all star of rec teams. It is U15 becoming a 8th grade team with both 8th and 7th graders ( they play at U15 too) .

So top clubs need these grade base teams in youth from 3rd grade up to 8th to be elites and ready to be scouted by HS. Hilarious!! With recent ER changes by NCAA most serious scouting will be 10th grade. That is ONE full year prior . There will some looking at 9th but 10th will be the big year.

What ever happened to tryouts each year where the best get on the team. Look at Crabs or any team. Roster changes every year until about 10th or 11th grade.

You sound like some club director saying """ By middle school, even with the new legislation, top clubs want to build scout-able teams that are ready by HS,"""" Seriously Ryan??

Easy one, but you should know this with all of your superior youth sports knowledge. Youth lacrosse is less than half the size of soccer, even in this area. So that would be great in the few very densely populated suburban areas, but the overwhelming surrounding rural areas would not be able to support rec leagues with teams at every literal birth year. Club could do it and make it work, but their is no incentive, as there has been no problem filling up the one grad year team per grade to date. By middle school, even with the new legislation, top clubs want to build scout-able teams that are ready by HS, rather than having to rebuild starting at 9th grade. Not so simple, as you state, to compare the largest sport in the world, to essentially the smallest (but best!).[/quote]

So are you saying it is easier to field club teams by every grade in sparsely populated areas than by U every year?? Not sure how that makes sense? In sparely populated areas the club team is the rec team or an all star of rec teams. It is U15 becoming a 8th grade team with both 8th and 7th graders ( they play at U15 too) .

So top clubs need these grade base teams in youth from 3rd grade up to 8th to be elites and ready to be scouted by HS. Hilarious!! With recent ER changes by NCAA most serious scouting will be 10th grade. That is ONE full year prior . There will some looking at 9th but 10th will be the big year.

What ever happened to tryouts each year where the best get on the team. Look at Crabs or any team. Roster changes every year until about 10th or 11th grade.

You sound like some club director saying """ By middle school, even with the new legislation, top clubs want to build scout-able teams that are ready by HS,"""" Seriously Ryan??
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It is easy to generalize and try to criticize and/or make fun, but what facts did you actually address? Yes, because club kids travel to the club they want vs. rec kids usually play in their direct community. So for example, and I'm just arbitrarily picking some clubs, nothing negative, Balt. City/Gamber/Westminster/St. James, etc. - they don't really have enough kids year in and year out to field teams just by birth year. That's just the history and reality, so youth rec lacrosse has always been U15/U13 etc. Conversely, clubs practice where they want to practice, and typically get enough kids at tryouts to field at least their standard one team per grad year. Not sure why you are so passionate in your criticism, but you actually don't dispute the facts, just seem to restate what I said, but indicate it is absurd, I guess - not sure what your point was. Your next point, which you found hilarious for some reason, no, it would be 3rd through 5th, because I said by middle school (6th-8th) they want to start building and developing teams by grad year, so 6th through 8th wouldn't fall under your hilarious part. Now, sure, I don't really disagree or care what they do at 3rd through 5th, but what they do now is exactly what I said, keep it at grad year for continuity. Again, not sure what was hilarious, because it is what exists. Once you get to HS, sure there could be a few roster changes on the best teams, but that is different than completely building a team, so not sure what your point was there either. Most of the best kids are already there, and a few develop along the way and eventually get added. 9th grade teams will get scouted, and recruiting boards will get developed throughout the year. 10th graders will get recruited. This is all exactly what is going on, so not sure why you are getting so butthurt about it..

I am surprised some holdback apologist hasnt given us "that is what college coaches want for recruiting". That excuse is now lame as Early recruiting is now 11th grade as of April 26 .. That was the big reason grade based proponents wanted it. Thats gone..So come on give us some good reasons why ALL Club youth lacrosse need to be grade base instead of a simple U base? The rules? Help out all the private school prefirsts? Is this a MIAA youth league?? LOL..
[/quote]

Your whole basis of argument is that public school curriculum should mandate a private club sports league. There is no "should be". Prefirst is a common curriculum in almost every private school now. Public schools are essentially third world institutions, with some minor exceptions, so let's please not use that as the gold standard to start mandating private (paid) anything.[/quote]

Wow! How did you get that from all of the above?? HOCO league is a government run league by Howard County Recreation? It is obvious that they either wanted to curry favors from private schools or had prefirst children in private schools or ??. Why would they go grade base when ALL other HoCO leagues went by age? EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE EXCEPT LACROSSE!

I am very aware of prefirst as my children go to Private school. But I do have a higher thoughts on public education than you do. Some good some bad. But that has nothing to do with private youth lacrosse clubs and the leagues they are in. The issue is letting select youth kids play down due to being heldback while similar children with same exact birthday play at a different grouping ( grade above). [/quote]

People are complaining about what they deem "holdbacks", which you are now making worse by calling them "select". The only basis to call someone a "holdback", in a grade-based system, is that they deviate from the public school grade 1-12 curriculum. Private schools are very prevalent in the area, so why are we considering public school kids ok, and private kids not? It's not playing down either way! If anything, just let public school kids subtract one year when they register to head off the year of the painful drivel. I'm not explaining to my 3rd grader why some butthurt parent of one of his teammates keeps calling him a 4th grader! Get the rules changed, or accept it when you pay the bill, and shut up about the kids. And yes, third world.

How about some of you just pull up to the field and say get out. You'd be amazed at what would happen. It's this amazing thing called growing up and dealing with sh*t. They invented it like back in the 30's.

But you pre-first, holdback, reclass parents don't pull up to the field and say get out; you say let's pass and come back next year to play the younger kids so you don't have to face reality. So the private schools created a new reality to suck another $25,000 from the snowflake helicopter parents and called it pre-first.

You holdback complainers should give it a rest. Do you really think your kid would be the superstar if there were no holdbacks in the world? And does it even matter in the first place? It probably doesn't bother your kid nearly as much as it bothers you. I played my kid up for years. He rode the pine. Some games he didn't get in at all. But it made him tougher, and he practiced harder until he was a starter over kids 1-2 years older. If your kid can't hang with the increased competition from the holdbacks, and it really bothers you that much, you should probably sign your kid up for rec. Then they will definitely be the superstar. Won't it be great?

Well, if you are on the competitive teams, actually playing against our classmates from school.

Or, the world class cheapskates are stuck in the 100 year old defunct public system. Whichever argument fits your agenda, but most things important in life evolve, get better. It's just education, I suppose.

What are you talking about? So much to answer.. You try to mix rec and club..You dont care about 3-5 grades but care about youth 6-8 grades? Why so caring about letting kids play down then and not earlier?/ Or thats right recruiting in 10th grade! Still Hilarious argument

And you dont understand what?? That teams have tryouts for teams and change rosters ?? But that is another excuse to be grade base and let certain select players play down ?/ Still Hilarious

Here this is easier for you. When did you think it was right for two different kids born on the exact same day to have to play at TWO different levels in YOUTH SPORTS?? Is the what they taught you. Some kids born on the exact same day get the advantage of playing at one level and some players get the disadvantage to play at a different level irregardless that they share the same birthday.

Just a side note. 10 graders will not get recruited . They will get scouted only. If they get recruited it will be illegal. If a NCAA coach even tells the club coach he is interested it will be illegal. The landscape will change in next few years. Lets hope some sanity comes back to club lacrosse at the youth level.

Only one getting Butthurt is you trying to explain that had to do prefrst.
I can see you bought into the whole prefirst logic spewed out by the school.

Only problem is that it has nothing to do with what we are discussing. You feel your prefirst should get an advantage ( play at one level) another child born on same day doesnt at youth sports. So you think that is ok in youth sports, The majority of people dont feel your prefirst should get an advantage others dont get.. Pretty simple except to butthurt apologists like you! LOL

Actually, most of us don't care and are tired of this argument. There was a 2 year spread in the U9, U11, U13 model. Grade based ends up with kids closer in age than that as it is very rare for prefirst kids to have a birthday earlier than spring.