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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Should a child play on 2017 if they play for HS team?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Should a child play on 2017 if they play for HS team?


No. You are probably better off playing on a U15 team if you are talented enough in 7th grade to play varsity. Haven't heard of too many 7th grade HS players. 8th grade is uncommon enough. Now, if your question is should someone on a HS team play down on a 2017 team - definitely NO!

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Of course he should be able, why tell a 7th grader that is good enough to play on his or her High School team, whether it be JV or Varsity, that you cant play with the 2017 club team? imo crazy to punish a kid..

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That is a bad HS TEAM.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
That is a bad HS TEAM.


Our a good player. I know of a 7th grader more then contributing on a jv team. Varsity would be a little much.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Throwing the Hot Shotz team into the summer mix. Very well coached by Eric Dunne, Chris Martocchia and Yale soph Brandon Mangan. The whole team is made up of scrappy Wantagh boys who started raw and have come a very long way under the guidance of Coach Dunne. Not the best team out there, but in terms of a true town team that plays ALL of the better travel teams they play well. Kudos to the little punks from Wantagh!

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I thought there were US lacrosse rules (could be wrong) about which level you should play on if you play ANY HS level lax. Cage please confirm.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I thought there were US lacrosse rules (could be wrong) about which level you should play on if you play ANY HS level lax. Cage please confirm.
US Lacrosse has Age and Eligibility Guidelines available at this location :

US Lacrosse Age and Eligibility Guidelines

The ruling on which you seek more information follows.

Players who are participating in any high-school level program such as a high school freshman, JV-B, junior varsity, varsity or club team should not be eligible for U15 competition in the same season. This means that a player who is age-eligible for U15 but plays on a high school level team should not concurrently play on a youth league U15 team. At other times of the year this player may be U15 eligible, for example, for summer ball or fall ball play, depending on the guidelines of the sponsoring league or organization.

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So a 7th grader or 8th grader should not play 2017/18 (of course no 8th grader should play 2017 anyway) if they play JV ball in the spring but of course who is following US lacrosse rules.

I am not sure if this should be enforced with so many 7th/8th graders on JV teams across the island.


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Originally Posted by Anonymous
So a 7th grader or 8th grader should not play 2017/18 (of course no 8th grader should play 2017 anyway) if they play JV ball in the spring but of course who is following US lacrosse rules.

I am not sure if this should be enforced with so many 7th/8th graders on JV teams across the island.


If I understand it correctly, seems like the Tri-State tournament may be a good model. It has both a U15 age based division that is adhering to the US Lacrosse guidelines while also having a Grade based division for AA Elite Travel Clubs.

http://www.trilax.com/pdfs/523611265111019_National.pdf

This is an excerpt from the link above:
AGE BRACKETS | Age guidelines must be STRICTLY followed.
Divisions and brackets are grade or age based. For age based
brackets, the cutoff date is 08|31|11. For example, if your player
was 10 on 08|31|11 then he qualifies for the U11 division. If your
player is 11 on 08|31|11, then he does not age qualify for U11 and
must play in the U13 division. U15 players fall under both our U15
and Rising Sophomore divisions. The U15 consists of Youth
brackets and players cannot have had any HS playing experience
prior to Summer 2012 (no Rising Sophomores). The Rising
Sophomore consists of HS brackets and is for players who have had
HS playing experience prior to the 2012 Summer or have completed
their Freshman year of HS. All AA brackets require tournament
director approval. Rising Senior AA is by invite only.
At all levels, players can play up but NEVER down!

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Originally Posted by 429lax
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So a 7th grader or 8th grader should not play 2017/18 (of course no 8th grader should play 2017 anyway) if they play JV ball in the spring but of course who is following US lacrosse rules.

I am not sure if this should be enforced with so many 7th/8th graders on JV teams across the island.


If I understand it correctly, seems like the Tri-State tournament may be a good model. It has both a U15 age based division that is adhering to the US Lacrosse guidelines while also having a Grade based division for AA Elite Travel Clubs.

http://www.trilax.com/pdfs/523611265111019_National.pdf

This is an excerpt from the link above:
AGE BRACKETS | Age guidelines must be STRICTLY followed.
Divisions and brackets are grade or age based. For age based
brackets, the cutoff date is 08|31|11. For example, if your player
was 10 on 08|31|11 then he qualifies for the U11 division. If your
player is 11 on 08|31|11, then he does not age qualify for U11 and
must play in the U13 division. U15 players fall under both our U15
and Rising Sophomore divisions. The U15 consists of Youth
brackets and players cannot have had any HS playing experience
prior to Summer 2012 (no Rising Sophomores). The Rising
Sophomore consists of HS brackets and is for players who have had
HS playing experience prior to the 2012 Summer or have completed
their Freshman year of HS. All AA brackets require tournament
director approval. Rising Senior AA is by invite only.
At all levels, players can play up but NEVER down!


That's well and good, but how do they enforce it. I am sure there are plenty of 8th graders who get moved up to JV. Doesnt mean their travel team they play with over the summer is going to 1. Take them off their roster or 2. Moved the whole team up to a rising sophomore level. I would guess each travel 8th grade team would have more then a few JV players on each team.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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What about those 7th graders on JV teams. Uh Oh. Makes us 2018 parents think twice about next year and things to come.

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This is a 2017 thread. Sure move a qualified 8th grader up to JV.

But there are a few 7th graders ( deservedly or not ) on JV teams. Some of these boys are on these so called LI elite travel teams. You know who you re.

So the question is Is it right for them to play summer u13. I say who cares where they played in the spring, they all want the best summer experience and that means playing against the best.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by 429lax
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So a 7th grader or 8th grader should not play 2017/18 (of course no 8th grader should play 2017 anyway) if they play JV ball in the spring but of course who is following US lacrosse rules.

I am not sure if this should be enforced with so many 7th/8th graders on JV teams across the island.


If I understand it correctly, seems like the Tri-State tournament may be a good model. It has both a U15 age based division that is adhering to the US Lacrosse guidelines while also having a Grade based division for AA Elite Travel Clubs.

http://www.trilax.com/pdfs/523611265111019_National.pdf

This is an excerpt from the link above:
AGE BRACKETS | Age guidelines must be STRICTLY followed.
Divisions and brackets are grade or age based. For age based
brackets, the cutoff date is 08|31|11. For example, if your player
was 10 on 08|31|11 then he qualifies for the U11 division. If your
player is 11 on 08|31|11, then he does not age qualify for U11 and
must play in the U13 division. U15 players fall under both our U15
and Rising Sophomore divisions. The U15 consists of Youth
brackets and players cannot have had any HS playing experience
prior to Summer 2012 (no Rising Sophomores). The Rising
Sophomore consists of HS brackets and is for players who have had
HS playing experience prior to the 2012 Summer or have completed
their Freshman year of HS. All AA brackets require tournament
director approval. Rising Senior AA is by invite only.
At all levels, players can play up but NEVER down!


That's well and good, but how do they enforce it. I am sure there are plenty of 8th graders who get moved up to JV. Doesnt mean their travel team they play with over the summer is going to 1. Take them off their roster or 2. Moved the whole team up to a rising sophomore level. I would guess each travel 8th grade team would have more then a few JV players on each team.


I see your point. As you stated above - their are a lot of 8th graders who play JV and in rare cases Varsity for High Schools that are not lacrosse powerhouses. Although there is always the rare exceptional standout, most of these 8th graders play at the same level as the rest of their grade based travel teammates.

I always end up going back to the fact that I think the age brackets are set up wrong. Should be U10, U12, and U14. The vast majority of 8th graders would fall into the U14 category. After U14 make it all Rising Sophomore, Rising Junior and Rising Senior which coincides with college recruiting camps, etc.. The U15 bracket blurs the line between Youth and High School which makes no sense. Seems like a pretty simple and basic fix.




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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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For youth sports, I think it should be age based not U or grade based. Pick cutoff dates and stick with it. Someone will always be older someone will always be younger.

But the issue is the child who is not in HS who is playing HS level, maybe if you play JV or V and are on a 7/8, U13, or U15 team then that team most becomes an "AA" team, where it is understood who may be playing on those "AA" teams.

If you are not on a "AA" team should you really be playing HS level. Rules stipulate you should not be pulled up to fill a spot. My understadning is also that the 7/8 grader cant just be the best play that is left (or available) but better than more than half the existing team trying out.

but like everything else the lines get blurred.





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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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I don't understand why you would want a 7th grader playing JV level lacrosse. JUst the size difference alone. Many 7th grader would be giving up alot in height and weight. Not only that, I find it hard to beleive that most 7th Graders would pass the puberty test (tanner test) to compete anyway

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When an 'experienced' youth player is confronted with a choice between playing on a 7/8th grade modified team with no cuts (anyone may participate, even those who have never played before), and being undersized but playing and practicing with a JV team whose members can consistently catch and throw, it can be a difficult decision. What is an experienced player going to get out of practicing with kids who have never played before? In any case, we felt it was more important for him to be with his classmates, help his friends develop as players and contribute to growing interest in our town and school's lax program by staying in the modified program with his immediate peers. He will play on a good team this summer.

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Good on you, your town is Lucky to have you

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
When an 'experienced' youth player is confronted with a choice between playing on a 7/8th grade modified team with no cuts (anyone may participate, even those who have never played before), and being undersized but playing and practicing with a JV team whose members can consistently catch and throw, it can be a difficult decision. What is an experienced player going to get out of practicing with kids who have never played before? In any case, we felt it was more important for him to be with his classmates, help his friends develop as players and contribute to growing interest in our town and school's lax program by staying in the modified program with his immediate peers. He will play on a good team this summer.


Great parenting with sound logic! I think many of the people who make this more are caught up in the status of the move, and are willing to overlook many of the problems it creates using the developement argument to justify it. It's good to see rational thinking prevail once in a while.

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I pushed the issue because i heard the State test was given (at some schools) to players behind closed doors and other players in front of Admins. The ones who did it behind closed doors passed the ones who did it behind closed doors passed.

Then I saw how those boys (who passed) if following the US lacrosse rules could really be putting their travel team at risk by playing U13 or U15 during spring.

I get the whole iron forges iron and you only get better by playing better. But the system is broken and that is why noone follows the TRUE rules.

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The school team the boys play on in school should have no bearing on the travel team he plays for in the summer. As stated travel teams mess with rosters, players age etc during the summer travel season (ie. cheat). What makes anyone think that travel teams would disclose the level of school play the players on their summer team participate at. Also why should a travel team care, they want to get the best available player. The topic is nice to talk about but has NO chance of being enforced.

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NOBODY will follow the rules until they are enforced and that will never happen. Lacrosse is DECADES behind travel soccer, baseball and even PAL football. Tournament directors don't care as long as payment is made. Someday a kid will be injured by an "older" player and those involved will be held accountable. Till then lacrosse will be continue to be the subject of jokes regarding age, rosters etc.

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Re: Boys 2017 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
NOBODY will follow the rules until they are enforced and that will never happen. Lacrosse is DECADES behind travel soccer, baseball and even PAL football. Tournament directors don't care as long as payment is made. Someday a kid will be injured by an "older" player and those involved will be held accountable. Till then lacrosse will be continue to be the subject of jokes regarding age, rosters etc.
This is actually a brlliant post. You are correct that it will take one massive lawsuit to change the operational model en masse. That lawsuit will be founded in some tragic event (similar to something like soccer goals blowing over or football uprights collapsing) where insurance and field usage starts to get questioned.

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Agreed, although goalposts falling etc can be viewed as accidents. Purposly using older/bigger players just to win is a premeditated decision by a coach/director and in many cases accepted by parents on that team. In the case of an injury the litigation would be interesting because all involved would have known about the infraction. Again just commenting on the lack of age enforcement. Can't wait for the summer season and nonsense to start.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
NOBODY will follow the rules until they are enforced and that will never happen. Lacrosse is DECADES behind travel soccer, baseball and even PAL football. Tournament directors don't care as long as payment is made. Someday a kid will be injured by an "older" player and those involved will be held accountable. Till then lacrosse will be continue to be the subject of jokes regarding age, rosters etc.


BEST post I have ever seen on this board. totally agree!!!!!

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Anonymous
NOBODY will follow the rules until they are enforced and that will never happen. Lacrosse is DECADES behind travel soccer, baseball and even PAL football. Tournament directors don't care as long as payment is made. Someday a kid will be injured by an "older" player and those involved will be held accountable. Till then lacrosse will be continue to be the subject of jokes regarding age, rosters etc.
This is actually a brlliant post. You are correct that it will take one massive lawsuit to change the operational model en masse. That lawsuit will be founded in some tragic event (similar to something like soccer goals blowing over or football uprights collapsing) where insurance and field usage starts to get questioned.


What is with all this gloom and doom? We need a travesty to start making a change? The Tournament Directors would have no problem accepting proof of age. It starts with providing the proof. Nothing is stopping us from getting our children their own Player Passes and volunteering them. Most of us are required to have US Lacrosse memberships anyway so why not ask them to provide a Player Pass service? Easier yet, have US Lacrosse distribute member ID #'s by age and require a copy of a Birth Certificate when registering. Tournament Directors can then make this a required field in the roster forms to cross reference.

From this point break the Tournaments up into 2 Categories:

YOUTH and HIGH SCHOOL

YOUTH
Age requirement plus player may not have attended any High School class. Age Groups should be yearly (U14, U13, U12, etc.). Age cutoff date as US Lacrosse has it now. Players can play up but never down.

HIGH SCHOOL
Grade based by year of graduation (2012, 2013, 2014, etc.) plus must have attended a High School class. Players can play up but never down.

The above is not a drastic change. Really more of minor revision to what we already have.

No system is fool proof but to say NOBODY will follow the rules until they are enforced is pessimistic. My boys have been on 7 teams with 4 different Clubs and not one has ever had an ineligible player.

Should 7th and 8th graders playing for their High School programs? That's a personal choice for the player, his or her parents and the school. It has absolutely nothing to do with Club Teams.

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No doom and gloom.....REALITY.......Please forward the tournament/director which is going to require the information that you have laid out and then review/enforce the requirements. I think we all would like that info !!!!!! Unfortunately I dont think you will find one.

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Please if you were in a real towm your kid would be lucky to made the 7th grade team.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
No doom and gloom.....REALITY.......Please forward the tournament/director which is going to require the information that you have laid out and then review/enforce the requirements. I think we all would like that info !!!!!! Unfortunately I dont think you will find one.


REALITY is no one is going to do it for you. If you want it so bad then do something about it. Stop passing the buck.

I'm not saying to give up or shut up only that it is a process. Maybe BOTC can moderate the process. If it is only 10 people who are willing to petition a change it will not get too far. If it is a 1,000 people then I'd say there is a chance. Unfortunately anonymous only counts as one signature. As moderator, BOTC can then present the consensus to Club Directors and Tournament Directors for their feedback. The process will take time but at least the ball will be rolling. Soccer has their way, Baseball has theirs, Lacrosse needs its own.

IMO, the process starts with defining what we'd want enforced then we can discuss how it can be enforced. I think the US Lacrosse guideline missed the mark, at least for Long Island. I've offered an option as to what I think is viable. Anybody else care to get involved? No deadlines, just a discussion at this point.


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Originally Posted by 429lax
Maybe BOTC can moderate the process. If it is only 10 people who are willing to petition a change it will not get too far. If it is a 1,000 people then I'd say there is a chance. Unfortunately anonymous only counts as one signature. As moderator, BOTC can then present the consensus to Club Directors and Tournament Directors for their feedback. The process will take time but at least the ball will be rolling. Soccer has their way, Baseball has theirs, Lacrosse needs its own.
BOTC already started these dscussions with the Long Island Metropolitan Lacrosse Foundation. Our interview and frank discussions with Harry Jacobs were posted in March 2012.

Advances and Movement on Player Passes

In essence, the Long Island community should not expect movement within this seasonal year (though July), but could start organizing inputs for LIMLF starting with the new seasonal year. BOTC would be happy to present any and all ideas submitted and attributed to LIMLF. Please e-mail any detailed points to cagesage@backofthecage.com.

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What is the typical mix of a Uxx team? example: is a U13 team half 2018 half 2017?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
What is the typical mix of a Uxx team? example: is a U13 team half 2018 half 2017?
Let's assume that we had a "pass system" in place and the cut-off date was August 1st.

Therefore, the U-age group system would range from August 1st of one year until July 31st of the next year.

Graduation years depend on the registration date of the kindergarden classes; let's say that December 1st is the cut-off date.

Therefore, the "older" players in the U-age system would be born between August 1st and December 1st. That covers four months.

So all things being equal, a U-age team is about 1/3rd "older" players and 2/3rds "younger" players. (Translation : A U/17 team would be 1/3rd High School Seniors and 2/3rds High School Juniors.)

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Stack as many kids that make the cut-off, 1-2 younger who are the coaches kids and their dad thinks they are the next Rabil, and 3-4 older kids so that you can win as many tournament games as possible. Then deny that you had any older kids. In some cases borrow a few kids from another team in your organization.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Stack as many kids that make the cut-off, 1-2 younger who are the coaches kids and their dad thinks they are the next Rabil, and 3-4 older kids so that you can win as many tournament games as possible. Then deny that you had any older kids. In some cases borrow a few kids from another team in your organization.


Lol!!! That is the funniest post ever.... Reason being is its dead on.

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True blue vs Gladiators today should be a good game

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True Blue played Gladiators last Sunday already. Gladiators beat them in a competitive game.

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It was the TB 8th grade team.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
True blue vs Gladiators today should be a good game


Not a game today - scrimmage/practice.

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Is the TB 8th grade team not a good team?

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True blue actually pulled out the win in the end.... And the gladiators I don't think even won a faceoff.

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