US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Cascade R helmets not certified

this will be fixed in a week or so.

maybe NOSCOE could look into age verification next!!

This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. If NOSCOE reversers their decision they will almost be implying that they are not competent enough to run their own tests. I would imagine that there were multiple closed door meetings before they essentially sank the most popular helmet in the sport.

I am betting on a recall.

Would love to know the real story here. The helmet was NOCSAE certified by two independent labs, so it's odd that the certification would be pulled so long after the helmet was introduced.

[quote=Anonymous] Cascade will go bankrupt on this

Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.

Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.

The beautiful disaster for STX. That helmet is a great product. Quite honestly I don't know how this goes any other way than game, set match to STX and Under Armour if they can come into the helmet market without screwing it up.

Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.

d3o is the orange foam material going into the STX helmets. it is a well known material that goes into motorbike armour and some other applications, and is quite good. it is also a very expensive material and is only produced by d3o.

Cascade is in trouble...single product company. Warrior has other places to look for revenue in lacrosse and in ice hockey, but a debacle for them as well.

so if you are a Warrior sponsored team like Princeton, Duke or Denver, what helmet do you wear this season? an STX would be the ultimate insult to Warrior with the kind of cash they pour into sponsoring NCAA programs.

Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.

STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/

I received an email back from noscae very quick reply regarding the CPX-R model it stated that at this time it is not included in their decertification so anyone with that model is safe for the moment. The investigation is ongoing though.

It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.

Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.

...and "your helmet failed...but we are not releasing some of the test results on some of OUR helmets". Wonder why that is.
Article is a good read.
Think everyone just needs to take a breath here...

Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.

It shows there is a huge issue with the NOCSAE if helmets that were fine for 2 years are now not certified.

Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.

You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.

Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.

So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit

If anyone has an STX helmet, can you please weigh it and post that weight? I am curious how much heavier than the Cascade. If the STX is 30% or 50% better on impact protection but is heavier, I would tell my sons to get used to wearing a heavier helmet. I hate the trend of skimpier lacrosse gear in favor of fashion. You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.

solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.

Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?

My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I

If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.

If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.

STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.

Not sure why STX is the bad guy here. As a consumer I want the safest equipment possible. If STX did not report the failures to NOCSAE and it came out in the future that they ignored this, what would that say for their integrity for consumer safety? Yes, it appears that they used this opportunity to throw Cascade and Warrior under the bus, however NOCSAE did not just take their word on the failure. Read the article in the link above. NOCSAE immediately conducted their own certification tests and analyzed all of the test data from the manufactures. Based on those results the helmets were de-certified.

STX is not responsible for the helmets failing the certification tests. They are responsible for making the consumers aware that the helmets that they purchased may not be as safe as they expected.

Is this the LOW ROAD? Maybe. I don't know. (Not sure I care) Bottom line is the consumers were at risk and Cascade and Warrior weren't saying anything.

Heard throgh the grapevine that the CEO of Schutt is also on the NOCSAE board.

If that is true the testing is not worth the paper it is printed on an a complete embarrassment to the sport.

Can anyone verify if that is accurate?

Yes, it is true.

http://nocsae.org/board-of-directors/

On this list the industry seats are one Schutt executive and one Nike executive.

I again dispute what some have written here: there should not be such a thing as non-intended use or incorrect use of a helmet. A helmet must be designed to strap on in one usable condition that is correct. The tightening dial for a helmet should not be designed to lock in tilt or other non-intended use. We have not seen this issue with football or hockey helmets, and the dynamic of kids being able to manipulate and then secure an unsafe positioning of a Cascade helmet makes that same helmet non-conforming to the NOCSAE standard under those usage conditions. NOCSAE is not the bad guy for doing their job, but can be blamed for taking so long to point this out.

I appreciate your thoughts and I want the safest equipment possible as well.
Here is the issue with STX/SCHUTT
The data STX referred to and you have cited is incomplete. Independent labs have also certified the Cascade R as being safe. It appears the failure reports generated by specific labs were being investigated by Cascade and NOCSAE prior to STX using the partial results in their advertising campaign. STX then figured out that if they report the failures (disputed due to tilt position during testing) to NOCSAE and create public panic then they would damage the other brands. It seems to have worked on those that take the report and decertification on face value and refuse to put the pieces together. They also are preying on the parents who innocently want the best and safest equipment for their kids. That is the low road reference because the report appears to be incomplete and inaccurate. There has not been a single case of injury reported due to Cascade or Warrior helmet failure in the year plus the R has been used by many thousands of players.
Remember data and reports can be manipulated to favor a company, organization or government.
This whole issue wreaks of personal interest and corruption. You decide.....

One more thing and this is a swipe at NOCSAE...I include myself in a large set of parents who have 1. liked Cascade products for years, 2. had kids playing in Cascade helmets as recently as two weeks ago, and 3. now know that NOCSAE at least knew of some safety concerns or bells to ring at least months ago. Some safety warning from NOCSAE -- and not from Cascade's website diagram that suddenly appeared in early November -- about head tilted fitting being non-conforming would have been good before the biggest club play month of the year.

If you look at NOCSAE's website you do learn that companies like Cascade and STX pay a very rich royalty for each product item sold with a NOCSAE certified seal to NOCSAE. The idea is that NOCSAE keeps up with the resources to monitor and regulate the industry. The more industry grows through products and volume, the richer the royalty stream to NOCSAE. I would love to see NOCSAE financials and would guess they cash flow very well. But then it appears that NOCSAE is a very small group in the Midwest of a few people who answer their own phones. Do they have NOCSAE contractors in the field doing ongoing quality testing and confirming? Did they only first get off the blocks when STX tattled on Cascade and Warrior, then hustle out to the local Lax Unlimited or [lacrosse]'s and buy some helmet samples to catch up on what they were not really monitoring for over 16 months? If there were no Schutt/STX helmet and no negative ad campaign, would NOCSAE have stood still another 16+ months on this without ongoing testing? Would we still have had kids wearing these helmets in an unsound fit not knowing the dangers for another 16 months?

Ok, NOCSAE is not a government regulator but they are a private industry regulator well paid by the same industry. All NOCSAE standards come out of research and testing where the brands industry is the underwriter. All ongoing testing and assurance that the NOCSAE seal means something is a good faith bargain and it now looks like it is reasonable to ask this question: had NOCSAE allowed itself to keep cashing royalties without keeping up with the demands of all their certified industry products? When was the last time NOCASE did field tests and random samples of Cascade R helmets in the 16+ months prior to November 2014.

The best question for NOCSAE now is did you allow yourselves to be outgunned in the field to the point where the industry you are supposed to regulate is left to self police? If the answer is yes, then drastic reforms are needed.

In one of the above statements it was mentioned that the fit of these helmets is important. Well I have to say when you go to a retailer and buy one of these helmets being a lacrosse helmet or a football helmet and so on, half the time if not most of the time the person helping to fit you with these helmets doesn't really know how to fit you. My son was basically asked is it comfortable or shake your head to see if it moves to much. I think the companies of these helmets should send out trained sales persons to the retailers to not only give product knowledge of what they are going to sell but also certify them as fit tested specialist once they get trained on how to do so. This will ensure that the helmets are properly fit and will eliminate any of these so called fit issues.

Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.

Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.

While the approach taken by STX seems incredibly self serving I appreciate the data turned over. I don't appreciate the fact that NOCSAE seems to have zero liability in this situation despite being the SOLE regulator of helmet safety. It's also quite disturbing that although NOCSAE apparently does minimal if any field testing or actual inspecting yet receives millions in royalties for their certification and safety seal. The single entity that needs to be investigated and possibly replaced is NOCSAE. Our kids have been playing with these allegedly dangerous helmets for over 18 months, all the while bearing the NOCSAE seal. Disgusting!! Why is there not more outrage pointed squarely at NOCSAE. We should all be calling for resignations and certification responsibility changes moving forward to an organization that is involved and thorough. Thoughts?

Sounds like the sound argument you are making leads us to (gulp) a Federal oversight agency for sports equipment safety. Maybe this falls into the arms of OSHA. While I am never a supporter of more government, here is an instance of a crying need for truly independent safety commission and not an industry funded self regulatory body.

Test results in a controlled environment are all well and good, but I would like to know exactly how that translates to a real life situation. What exactly is the risk posed by wearing a Cascade R and Warrior Regulator? How much of a percent greater is that risk over the STX? Layman's terms would be helpful here. Further, how was the certification standard developed and does it make sense?

After reading this article, how much longer before we find out that the CPX-R, Pro-7 and others with the "seven technology" or similar are also de-certified?

In the spirit of we are all in this mess together, in the spirit of this Festivus holiday season let's commence the Airing of Grievances. At this point we have seen the data and the timeline and the only fair conclusion is that NOCSAE bungles and Cascade and Warrior had at least deficient and less than thorough ongoing testing. That has been outed well by the informed posters on this board and by the excellent articles in 24sevenlax.

1. Cascade and Warrior retailers
If you a family customer of a local lacrosse store where you have bought gear, advice being communicated through Cascade and Warrior through those channels to you is hold tight. Cascade and Warrior are talking it over with NOCSAE and this will all blow over sometime soon over the next few weeks. This is clearly a NOCSAE error or oversight and also an STX conspiracy. How about this LaxWorld, LU, et. al. to lacrosse parents: Lacrosse sucks. It it too expensive for the poor, and it is barely affordable for the middle class and then it is just another country club fee equivalent. For the latter, get your big boy pants on and buy a certified helmet to keep your kids safe. It costs as much as the greens fee you will pay twice this week before caddy tips and cheaper than the dinner tab you will pick up when out with your wife and the people she calls friends.

2. US Lacrosse
Somebody turn off the lights and the phones when you leave tonite. Absentee landlord over the game.

3. NOCSAE
See #2.

4. Club and events guys
We have 3d's response to this, which is basically the equivalent of NASCAR saying we have a race this weekend, and if anyone wants to drive their stock car with brakes we know are faulty, then sign this waiver and all comers welcome. It is as if the only duty of care expected of lacrosse parents is to provide a debit card that will keep swiping. I am curious what the status quo is with other major club or events lacrosse organizations. If 3d has set the standard, this is a weak standard. In terms of being stewards of the game, also see #2 at least as far as 3d is concerned.

5. Bleeping high school coaches.
Gee, did your public high school or private prep school have you order colored Cascade Rs? Mine did too! Actually, my son's school has home and away Cascade Rs and they are both non-whites. Did high school coaches never get word of sticker wraps? Then a kid can re-sticker his helmet between club or school seasons. It would make the game somewhat more affordable for kids who want to play high school. I may go to my grave believing the best under the table deal is from Cascade or retailers and these high school guys to move some colored helmets. I am yet to meet a lacrosse mom or dad who is anything but p.o'ed about buying a yellow, blue, red or other colored lacrosse helmet.

6. NCAA coaches
If a high profile NCAA coach has commented on this atrocity, I would be all eyes to read it or ears to hear it. In the throat of this the only news of the day is one article penned by a lacrosse college coach making soothing comments to parents about encouraging kids to play other school sports. See again #2.

7. Lawyers
Admit it, we all hate them. If you are one admit that you hate yourself and would run away with the blond hostess at your TGI Fridays in a New [lacrosse] minute save for the moral issues surrounding that. Behind every great class action or other civil suit is a lawyer with prior experience in the subject matter. Give some bad paid advice today -- the sweet nothings from Cascade and Warrior, the 3d letter with all the small font disclaimer legalese -- and you are the chosen counsel for the protracted and expensive messes this will create saying nothing of the continued risks to the kids playing this game. I call that the lawyers' forward employment act. Have some balls counselors...your clients are asking for comfort letters to keep a status quo that we know is unsafe and unsound. $400 an hour to you makes that a risk you can live with?

7. Us, the bleeping lacrosse parents
In the recent couple weeks we have learned that Cascade and Warrior are at least incompetent, have communicated half truths to the retailers about this being no biggie which should blow over soon. The retail guys repeat that to you, and the next layer of comfort is the club and events guys saying for now just wear non-certified helmets because hey...we can't even remember the last time we bothered to to a US Lacrosse sanctioned event under USL insurance policies (snort, snarfell, giggle). We privately insure anyways and what's more fun this winter, box lacrosse or pilates for your sons? Just poke at the alpha dad in all of us since most dads were either insecure junior varsity guys in high school or lacrosse players from back in the day when lacrosse was basically a club sport masquerading as a real college sport, and the tradesmen (see #1 through #6) know that hits us where our macho pride can really hurt.

Really, it is ok to put away that circa 1970s Hopkins 'ship ring, stop listening to all the cheerleaders (see #1 through #6) and think about your kids. I am middle class with three kids playing the game and I am getting new helmets this weekend. That sucks. This sport is always filling my email box and voice mail with exciting opportunities to part with $150-$250 a day playing lacrosse events of some kind, club fees due reminders, club apparel gear for new seasons, clinics or all those flattering and exclusive prospect days or showcases. The bottom line is if your kid loves lacrosse like mine do, you suck it up. I hate it when clubs do winter training in 20 degree weather for Sundays in December through January. That means 4-6 broken heads that need to be replaced. I am probably a lot like many of you. I watch the sales and inventory stuff at home so that I can have a few replacements of items that will wear and break. Think about this...if a club coach called and said Hopkins wants your boy but they also need to evaluate him on their field at a prospect day. 99% plus percent of the lacrosse parents still reading my drivel would pay that prospect day fee and pay for travel to get yourself and your son there. You don't like it, because Petro and the rest can and should damn straight evaluate kids at tournaments and could invite prospects at no cost to a prospect day (or for a $40 type "tryout" equivalent fee) but they don't want to because they want that money for their assistant coaching staff. From you. Ok, my assumption is nearly all of us would do that. Because you believe it is consequential if you passed on it. Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential, and your son's health is a lot more consequential than a roster spot at Hopkins or anywhere else. Think about the day your son was born and the greatest gifts he keeps giving you for being his son, and put on your big boy pants and do what is needed to keep him safe because you love him.

After reading through your post (as unbelievable as that is) I'm stuck on this:

"Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential"

Really? You're that certain of the charge and put so much faith in the banana republic of a certification regime?

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are inherently unsafe in on-field situations and/or are materially less safe than the STX creation.

Enjoy spending $750 this weekend, assuming 3 helmets for your brood. I'll sign a waiver and reserve judgment for more concrete information.

Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.