I know the NCAA Div 1 season is still quite young, but there have been some stunning upsets by mid-majors over two well established ACC teams.

UVA 11 HPU 12 Hofstra (LI's Univ.) 10 UNC 5 Also- Harvard with two one goal wins. Ohio St 9 UMass 16 --- Loyola 9 Hopkins 8

Is this an example of the demise of early recruiting? UVA UNC and JHU are 3 of the most aggressive early recruiters. Are the 8th grade club studs getting beaten by kids that get recruited in 10th, 11th or even 12th grade? Are the late bloomers the ones that ultimately do better once they get to Div 1? I doubt High Pt, Hofstra or Loyola get 9th graders to commit to their progs.

Early recruiting is killing this sport. But people will come on here and think your jealous because your kid is not getting recruiting yet in 9th grade. Late bloomers in many cases catch up. Early bloomers in terms of growth look like studs now because they are men playing with boys. Seen it time and time again an early bloomer bypassing that early matured kid.

Its causing parity which is good.
Kids playing for UVA where mostly recruited in 9th Grade
Kids now playing with high point were recruited in 10th/11th
And the Winner is? Schools like High Point
The LOSERS The schools and coaches of these so called top programs.
They recruit a 9th Grade Hold Back because he's dominating. Now 4 years later, It all evens out, and some kids just pass them by.
Those programs that recruit too early are getting exactly what they deserve

Here is what I said in the 2016 College thread.


In my opinion the early losses by some of these high profile teams is just the tip of the iceberg. There is more parody in the sport than ever before. Too many programs taking kids on the word of a travel team coach before the kid has matured. What dont these guys get(college coaches) its the job of these travel team guys to get kids committed early and as many from their program as possible. The coaches are hedging their bets on these early recruits hoping some are as good as the travel coaches say they are. For the most part the early studs will be good players later on, but I have seen it all too often kids getting the early recognition because they were early to mature and were dominating at an early age get all of the accolades. As time passed many of the unheralded kids now were passing the so called best players. It doesn't happen all the time but it does happen a large percentage of the time. There are many factors to consider like growth, speed, athletic ability, game iq, drive etc. Two thing s I have always heard you cant teach size and speed. with all this training you can only enhance them. You will only be as tall as your meant to be and as fast as your meant to be. Drive determination heart are the uncontrollable factors coaches can not measure with a stopwatch or a tape measure. This is good for the sport and will help it grow.

This is from a girls coach, but the message is the same for either gender:


February 24, 2016

Early Recruiting: Seeing It from the Other Side


By Sue Stimmel, Associate Head Lacrosse Coach at Upper Arlington High School

After more than 25 years as a college coach and athlete, I began teaching high school mathematics and coaching high school lacrosse. When recruiting for a Division I collegiate lacrosse program, I thought I understood high school students. After 4 years as a high school teacher/coach, I have concluded I really did not have a clear picture at all!
Photo courtesy of the author.Photo courtesy of the author.
Kids and High Schools Do Not Benefit from Early Recruiting

If you spend time daily with high school freshmen, you would determine quickly that they are clueless about high school, social development, individual identity� even personal hygiene. They want to be independent, yet need an overwhelming amount of guidance and direction. The maturity observed between underclassmen and upperclassmen is stunning. Their bodies change. They begin to have an idea of who they are and who they want to be. Seniors often reflect on decisions/things they did as an underclassman and laugh. The best part of teaching seniors, especially those I also taught as freshmen and sophomores, is the ability to see how they have evolved individually and to be able to have more mature and candid discussions. And even interacting with seniors, I realize how naive they still are. I feel early recruiting is bad because kids need time to grow without developmentally inappropriate external pressures. They are not ready!

In addition to these pressures, early recruiting discourages multi-sport participation, resulting in less well rounded athletes, specialization in one sport, and overuse injuries. Early recruiting also introduces a social dynamic to high school teams that focuses on individual performance. This is a time when kids should be learning to work with others, learning to deal with adversity, and forming lifelong friendships.

Parents Do Not Benefit from Early Recruiting

Communities that offer a wide array of athletic opportunities for young children are good for physical and psychological development. However, specialization at an early age through year round travel teams and camps creates a financial burden. This may also create emotional stress on the parent/child relationship. Even in conversations with parents who have had older children go through the college decision process without athletic involvement, they report feeling much more overwhelmed. They feel pressured to visit multiple colleges to create early interest and to make significant decisions without all the desired information, fearing their window of opportunity may close. The timing of these visits supersede family, academics, and athletic schedules. A well rounded student-athlete needs a balanced academic and social experience in addition to athletics. Early recruiting creates unnecessary pressure at a time when balance is already difficult to achieve.

Colleges Do Not Benefit from Early Recruiting

The IWLCA submitted two recruiting legislative proposals to the NCAA, addressing concerns about early recruiting. Support of this proposed legislation is important for collegiate recruiters. In my opinion, the potential negative effect on the individual athlete, family, and high school far outweighs the perceived benefits of early recruiting. Early recruiting is likely to result in recruited athletes who are not vested in the decision but lack the maturity to navigate subsequent change. With early specialization, I am seeing more and more overuse injuries at the high school level. Because of this students are more likely to arrive on campus with chronic injuries. Others may arrive burned out. College coaches are more likely to miss economically disadvantaged kids, who cannot afford camps, visits, and travel teams. Late bloomers are heavily penalized. College coaches are forced to make decisions without knowing the dynamics of a future team. This creates a false sense of security for both athletes and coaches because significant change in four years is inevitable.

In the past high school athletes played multiple sports for fun. By the time they were looking at colleges, if they excelled at one of their sports they went on to play at the next level. Exceptional athletes received scholarships. However, at some point playing in middle/high school became a means to an end. When I ask high school athletes why they quit a sport, many reply because they do not want to play in college or that they are not good enough to play in college. When did one become a vehicle for the other?

There are so many things that are great about scholastic athletics, but early recruiting is not one of them. It creates external pressures that are subversive to healthy adolescent development. No one wins.

Sue Stimmel is currently a math teacher at Franklin Heights High School and the Associate Head Lacrosse Coach at Upper Arlington High School, the 2013 and 2015 State Champions. She coached collegiately for 21 years, including 15 as the head coach at the Ohio State University.

this says it all.... Paul Rabil didn't play until 7th grade. Rob Pannel was a late bloomer. I am sure that there are many more examples...

I'm sure a lot of the best players now were the best players back in 4th grade also

Thanks for the corrections. I meant parity but sometimes spell check has its own mind. I still believe everyone got the gist of what I was saying.

everyone on both sides of this debate paints with too broad a brush...some athletes will be late bloomers, some athletes will always be the best-not because they are bigger than the other 7th graders (that is the holdback trap) because they have natural physical abilities that other people don't have.

if a college coach recruits a young kid, why do the others who weren't recruited care? If a college coach doesn't recruit any young kids, why does anyone care?

early recruiting has been going on for years in many sports, lax just seeing it now because the sport has more visibility than ever before.

for the record, both hofstra and loyola recruited and verbally committed 9th graders last year.

the clear advantage will be with the early recruited kid that continues to be the stud. he or she will have more leverage entering 11th grade and be able to get more $ from some other great school...

the rest of the argument or debate is pointless and silly. parents and kids that want to be recruited early-for whatever reason, will chase the dream. parents and kids that don't think it is a wise move, will simply wait. why anyone seems to think it is the downfall of lax is beyond me.

the game is expanding, not shrinking. more d-1 teams...but no professional game so why comment on decisions of others? unless of course you wanted your kid to be recruited and he or she wasn't...

See the tough guy dad who has to say the ones complaining are the kids not getting recruited. No it's many people who love the game and now see the craziness of holdbacks, early recruiting and travel programs making hand over fists. It's not growing the game it's ruining it.

Good players in fourth grade? What truly defines a good player in 4th grade?

It's my opinion that if a player has had good training he can be a standout in 4th grade. This used to be the children of past collegiate players, the younger sibling of a player etc. As time has gone by now everyone is dreaming of their kid playing college ball and as a result kids are being introduced to the game at a very young age. There will be less dominant 4th graders because so many are playing the game. What will eventually happen is the athlete who is a standout athlete who truly loves the game and is playing because they love it and it's not mom or dad's dream will separate themselves from the pack. With so many people now playing the sport is growing and as a result more colleges can field competitive teams.

I think you make some very valid points. Athletes are athletes yes but at a very young age athletic ability is truly not reached until puberty. Yes yhere are the kids who just have it, and will always have it. That it factor can not be taught. The athlete who is playing with other players his age that has hit puberty or matured more quickly will of course stand out. I don't think people have an issue with the early recruiting aspects I think that people have an issue with the so-called old guard not doing as well as they normally do because of early recruiting failures. Look at the teams that have been early recruiters Virginia, Hopkins, and Syracuse, they have not done that well for them. These schools will always get interest from the best players but they are taking a risk on taking players in 8th 9th and maybe even 10th grade. When their roster slots are full this leaves room for other teams like High Point and other colleges to get great players that might have not fully matured until 11 or 12 grade and were passed over. Not all great players play for great teams either so they don't go to the best showcases or tournaments. As a result they are not seen maybe until later on in high school. The expansion of the game is great. Makes for really exciting Saturday lacrosse.

Not really directly on topic, but Loyola very recently won the national title (2012) before the early recruiting kicked in,so the hounds playing even with and beating JHU should not be a shocker when Hopkins hasn't won it all since 2007.

So it wasn't really working all that great before early recruiting either.

Early recruiting has been around for a very long time. Most of the top players knew where they were going even back in the day by 11th grade. It's the publicity of early recruiting that's the phenomenon that we are seeing. This is all due to the Internet, social media, and coverage of the game. The 9th and 10th grade recruiting is new, this is changing the game but not really hurting it.

It's not about the 9th grade players committing early and the consequences of a 14-15 yo picking a college. It's about mom and dad standing under the club team tent, after having spent thousands of dollars, feeling like their investment paid off. They can puff their chest out and say, "you're just jealous your late bloomer can't go to Hopkins." And why would the club directors counsel them to wait? They can't wait to list it on their website to get more suckers in the pipeline as early as possible. Whole process is whacked.

on the other side of the coin Drexel coach Voelker has been vocal in his refusal to early recruit and it is commendable, but they lost to UVA 14 - 7. making the argument that early recruiting is so bad one would think that with the later recruiting they would do better, I am not for or against early recruiting but you need to look at both sides.

Share a sideline with the parents. Early recruiting is hurting the game because its not a team game anymore. Gotta get mine

Of course Drexel is against early recruiting. Schools like Drexel don't have the pedigree that let's say the Ivys, Hopkins, Duke, and Virginia have so they don't get the pick of the litter. Things is with more players playing and only 12.6 Scholarships there will be enough talented players to go around. Also with the schools that do fill their rosters up early they often overlook very good players in 9th and 10th grade because the haven't reached their potential yet. The thing is some of these early recruits might have reached their max potential in 9th grade and now everyone else is passing them.

As for Loyola they caught lightning in a bottle that season. The stars aligned and they won their title. Won't happen for a while the way they did it.

Loyola beating Hopkins is not a major upset. Hopkins should have lost to Navy. Loyola is legit and will be around come May.

Hofstra always comes up with a big regular season win and then disappears come the end of the season. IMO UNC really needs to start looking at their coaching staff, with the talent they stockpile every year its bewildering that they havent made a final four in forever it seems.

Virginia appears to be on a downward slide and one can only wonder if the game is starting to pass Starsia by. They can get any recruit they want for the most part so I dont think early recruiting is their only issue.


Although I am not am early recruiting advocate I think there are different forces at work here as well. I think there is so much talent out there now that parity was inevitable. Coaches have expanded their recruiting to non traditional markets and kids from all over are starting to play and excel at the game.

I think a fascinating study would be to look at a Top 5 lax program and look at their impact players. Look at when they verballed and where they played high school and club lacrosse and see if any patterns emerge.

Having said all that, does anyone here believe that this years final four will be dramatically different than years past? I think come May the same top programs will be at the final four . Looking at the last 5 years, the same teams end up playing on championship weekend so Im really not sure how that proves or disproves the theory that early recruiting is hurting the sport. It will be fascinating to see what happens over the next few years and if any changes are made.

To be fair, Rabil and Pannell are both freaks of nature. Not fair to compare them to regular humans

Rabil is a physical specimen, yes. He's not the first one either but he has embraced his stardom better than most and as a result has launched himself into the limelight of a sport that is begging for a superstar. Someone that can put lacrosse on the map.

As for Pannel what makes you call him a freak. He was recruited to play at Quinnipiac decided to PG and went to Cornell. He's basically the Rudy of lacrosse. He's 5 foot nothing weighs a hundred and nothing and is considered one of the best to play the game. He also has grasped the limelight and is a charismatic figure in the lacrosse world.

Another person that is doing great things for lacrosse is The Beast Greg Gurenlion. It's personalities like these we need at the helme of lacrosse to help it grow. There were many before but these are the guys now doing it in the world of social media and blazing a trail.

i guess i am missing your point. you are annoyed because some people want to pretend they are better?

isn't that what some people do in all aspects of life? Avoid them and move on...has nothing to do with early recruiting...

example, if boy down the street was committed verbally to Harvard, but told no one, would you or anyone else care?

Really, i gotta get mine is the attitude ?

Two boys and one girl-one in college (d-3 at great school) and two in process, one of which is an early commit to d-1 with $. if you are on the team you describe-my advice-leave and find another. we have been lucky i suppose and the kids are there to play and enjoy and have fun. when the fun is gone-move on...

now, if you go to maverick or jake reed, that attitude is to be expected...

good luck

Pannell is a freak of a lacrosse player, just a rare and special talent and happens to be an exceptional athlete. (oh and Rudy had absolutely no physical gifts or special athletic ability, just the heart of a lion)

I wasn't knocking Pannell. I said he is one of the faces of lacrosse and one of the best to play the game. Rudy is my all-time favorite movie. Like you said the character in the movie exemplified heart. Rob is considered one of the best to play but his path to get there wasn't a typical one. Think about it he wasn't wooed and picked up by a Duke or even Cornell right out of school. He did what worked for him. Now if you lined up Perkovic ND, Jones Duke, Rabil and Pannell. Odds are Pannell would be the last guy picked. Yet he tore it up on the lacrosse field. In his own words" I was never the fastest, strongest, biggest, or most dominating figure" "I matured physically from junior to senior year from 5'6 to 5'9 165 to 185" (lacrosse magazine 2012)

To take your point further, I have heard many D1 coaches state they hold spots for the late bloomers and kids they may have missed. They may be stockpiling kids early but they arent discounting the late bloomers or kids that went under the radar. The 2017 class has had several kids switch their commitments from mid and lower D1 programs to Top 10 programs and I may be wrong here but I think thats the way it has always been. Although I think early recruiting is an issue, I just think its the fact that their are so many talented kids playing now and the mid and lower level schools are scooping them up and becoming competitive.

But, the oldest....

per Ty Xanders--- the 100th 2019 just committed. 100 public commits by Feb of their freshman years! How many have committed but have not made it public yet? Md has like 12 kids already.

With the exception of the kids from Texas and Florida, most haven't even played a high school game yet.

Duke doesn't want the kids to announce because it might be a little embarrassing especially if you are one of the 20 kids. It's like being in a room of 30 kids and being told you are the one we want and find out that 10 kids were told the same thing...you will have 150 kids commit and half will change by junior year if they can. At this point if Maryland comes and wants you to commit , how can you say yes

Danowski will take the best underclassmen all day long. As opposed to being at Hofstra and begging for LI kids to stay. Even his own son headed south.

According to recruiting rundown website, Maryland has 14 commits from 2019

To be honest I wouldn't want my son to be one of them. It's just a numbers game to the university obviously.

If I was the parent of one of the 14 I wouldn't be putting the video camera away just yet.

But seriously, to a degree I get early recruiting, but not recruiting an enitre class when they are freshmen. Kids are playing more lacrosse than ever before, are getting more advanced and better coaching at an earlier age so they are more polished than the players of even five years ago.

Early recruiting is hurting this sport. My son is a freshman and being recruited by D1 schools and inside I know there are a few juniors on the HS team that are better , physically and maybe skill too , that have no offers yet. Why ? I spent a lot of money on exposure. This is hurting the HS teams. Kids don't get fair chances because of "hype" from other underclass men. When I was HS in the 80's very rare that a freshman was on varsity. It was seniors and juniors and the younger waited their turn. Now it's a rush to "pull them up".

They are better right NOW. Do you think your own will be better then them in 2 years ? Thats the question. Coaches would love the NCAA to ban recruiting at such a young age, the NCAA won't do it because they thing enforcement will be a nightmare. The colleges are then put on a position to try and project where a a 14 year old kid will be in 5 years. On the bright side for som of the lesser colleges so to speak, the big dogs being forced to gamble on younger players means more misses and while those misses will fill up rosters by default other colleges can find late bloomers who emerge in Jr or even SR year.

Who's son headed south?

Danowski's kid went to Duke.

Come on early recruiting stopping, laughable. How many 2020's have been talked about forget 2019's & 2018's. Please!

But reality tells you, you have a better overall view if you wait till rising Jr. Summer. but like all businesses you need to do your homework and know who those kids will be.

Personally I think early recruiting is a joke but I also think limiting recruitment at any age is a bigger joke. Okay you recruited a 7th grader if it work out great if not your an embarrassment. Get rid of the limits and see after a few years how it goes back to recruiting the best players without a frenzy of potentially marginal players. I think it would be

Freshman year 9th grade 20% would be recruited
Sophomore year 10th grade 35% would be recruited
Junior year 11th grade 40% would be recruited
Senior year 12th grade 5% would be recruited.

Would this be so bad. of course everyone will also try to under cut eachother but high risk high reward.

I'd be very curious what percentage of these early 2019 recruits are repeats/holdbacks who stood out playing younger competition during 8th grade summer. (It's the grade year when most decide to repeat in the northeast) And then again the majority could be grade/age appropriate, and would lessen the outcry about summer teams stacked with repeaters.

From what I'm told a good percentage are holdbacks out of the 2019 class. And the rest are just matured early physically. I mean come on West Point has two verbals already. Very surprised at that.

"freaks of nature" ...take it easy there guy.. this is niche sport. neither of those dudes could make a D3 roster in any of the mainstream sports like football or basketball- sports without all these high priced barriers to entry that lacrosse has. don't get crazy, JJ Watt is a freak of nature.

Never said freaks of nature there sparky. Just said these kids are matured physically. I have seen a lot of those boys. Many look like they are 16 or 17. It helps when you mature physically at this age.

I think he was referring to another comment about Rabil and Pannell

I wouldn't say the LI kids look that much more mature. or I think they have more left to do

Sorry there Johnny Bag O Donuts, I was referring to freaks of nature in the context of them being exceptional lacrosse players. Oh and I completely disagree with you, both Rabil and Pannell could easily play D3 Football or basketball. Rabil especially is an exceptional athlete.

The Long Island kids that have committed are very mature physically. I know them and seen them play many many times.

Jim Brown was a freak of nature and a lacrosse first athlete..... OK there guy

Hate to break it to you Johnny Football, the better athletes are on the Lacrosse field in D3. My son plays D3 Lacrosse, the football coach would take him and his friends any day. In fact, one kid had a couple of FCS D1 offers to play Football. Others are D1 Lax transfers. You'd be surprised at the level of Athletes... A Friend of mine's son is playing top 5 D3 lax next year, he had Patriot league level football offers. Chose to play Lax, FB coach at the school is begging him to play Football too. Trust me, no one is asking any of the Football players in D3 to play Lax.

I do not know if this is completely true. You are saying there are no D3 football players that played very good lax in HS but choose to play football in college and the college Lax coach has not asked them to play on their team? Hey top level D3 lax is pretty damn good, but I think that is a silly statement. As I know first hand it is not true.

I am not stating that for the entirety of all D3 programs. Only my son's school. It is the only place I can speak about. However, in general, save for a few football skill players I think I may be more right than wrong for D3. D1 definitely not true. If you could get some of those athletes on the Lacrosse field it would change the game. Think of Elliott on attack, Henry on Midfield, and Bosa with a pole... WOW!!!

They are developed and mature versus other 14, 15 year olds. That isn't a sustainable advantage. Anyone who has experience with high level college sports knows that except for a few lacrosse coaches. I guess we could suppose that a few college lacrosse coaches really know better, but I'll take the other side of that bet every time.

It is sustainable advantage right now. But let's see 4 yrs from now.

So are you saying the kids that committed in 9th and 10th grade are only doing so because they are more mature? Skill, ability and overall athleticism have nothing to do with it?

Might also have something to do with who they play for? just sayin

You know I think early recruiting is interesting. Do I wish my son was one of those early recruits? Absolutely if he really knew where he wanted to go and what he wanted to do in 9the grade. For some the decision is a no brainer when committing to schools like Duke, Hopkins, and all the other top 20 schools with D1 programs. You would be stupid not to jump at a chance to go to one of these schools if given the opportunity. My son and I are circumventing the treacherous recruiting road as I write this. We came into the travel lacrosse scene a bit late in 7th grade. So many teams had already been established and it was very tough to crack their top teams. We have played for some great teams only to see them cherry picked by other so called AA teams resulting in the team becoming weaker. If the parents just gave the team more time together rather than look for the AA team moniker the team could have competed with any one. We actually gave some AA teams a run in 1 or 2 goal games. The one thing I have learned and seen first hand that you need an advocate for your kid. I know so many quality players that are not committed and others who happened to play for a great team and an established coach get the early commitment. Many of these players were and still are some of the best players because they were a bit more mature and polished. This is because they were very well coached and played on great teams. While in 7th and 8th grade they really stood out physically and even skill wise. As 9th grade has come around many of the kids that were tall for their age or bigger in 6th-8th are now are average in both areas. Some are still bigger, taller and even better but not the full head and 25-30 pounds they had on others and blowing them away skills wise. I am happy my son and I are where we are in the process. I am seeing kids that at one time were so much better than others who were committed in 9th grade to top programs now being passed by. With puberty and a new found drive and work ethic kids are coming into their own mentally and physically and passing the so called can't miss players. I think that at this time my son is in the best possible position for him. Have a few schools he loves in D1 that also have shown interest back. We also have been introduced to a few schools we never would have considered before but are now very intrigued by. In 9th grade he would have never really known what he wants or if he could do it. It's not the end of the world for the parents or player if they aren't committed by 10th grade. I think certain coaches in D1 and club team directors are creating this frenzy. By the recent results many of these teams who have paved the way by committing 8th and 9th graders might be reconsidering listening to the club directors recommendations on can't miss 9th graders. Which I find hysterical to even type. Don't lose faith and stay the course. Good luck to all.

The comment was the Li kids. I don't think they are overtly any more mature. The early commit are more mature because they are older!

No I'm talking about mature physically. If your 6'1" 180 lbs at 14 don't tell me your not gonna be better then the 5'4" 125 lb kid that just started puberty. I have seen some of those boys and they are done growing. Kids catch up. But you do have an advantage if you went through puberty already.

I agree with much of what you say but there are some things that I would like to point out.

Where are all of these late bloomers? If there are so many late bloomers out there then why do high school coaches bring up so many 9th graders? There is talk on another thread about Garden City, Massapeaqua, Syosset etc.. "the prestigious" programs bringing up a bunch of 9th graders. If there are so many late bloomers why the need to bring up the 9th graders. If college coaches can't tell who is going to develop down the road what make you think the HS coaches can? Is it possible that once the HS coach tags the kid as a can't miss (brings him up in 9th grade) the coach will continue to play the kid even if he doesn't pan out? Will the coach be able to admit he was wrong about the kid or will he just keep playing him?

From what I have seen first hand over the past few years Club Directors have very little influence on the college coaches. However, the club you play for has bas become more important. In recent years the top clubs have joined forces and they send their top teams to exclusive tournaments. Head coaches from the majority of Division 1 programs are all over these tournaments all summer and fall paying particular attention to the rising 9th and 10th graders. College coaches will watch a player multiple times before making an offer (they do not make the offer because the club director tells them to).

How many studs can one town have so that's why some towns bring up freshman. Usually the freshmen brought up are the early to mature/the old for their grade kids. Yes they are skilled and not a knock against them but to be competitive some towns need to bring up freshman. The bringing up of freshman has a lot to do with all these club guys being involved in high school teams. What happened to earning your stripes. Play JV and at least one year then play varsity. It's rush them up, it's mom and dad pulling strings, it's club directors influencing who gets brought up. Not to say there are those not deserving. I played varsity in 9th grade. I didn't ask for it, but was brought up. My parents had no clue they were too busy working. Things have changed so much. Why are parents so involved with what a high school coaches does? I think a lot is being forced. Let the kids develop. Haven't you seen the trend of coaches constantly changing. You will rarely see a coach around for a long time like Manhasset and Farmingdale.

In regards to the club directors not having influence, I think your wrong. If a guy like SL from an established club is calling saying he has a can't miss players in 8th and 9th grade these college coaches are listening. These club coaches are using their relationships they have built in the lacrosse community to advocate for their players. You don't think MC is calling every coach he knows to get his players recruited . Try and call college coaches as a parent they really aren't calling you back. Even an established high school coaches has those relationships. Schools like Chaminade, GC, and Manhasset to name a few. I have seen it first hand and been in the room when those calls are made. Yes the college coach and their staff will watch a player play but having your club or high school coach contact them and letting them know your on the map helps tremendously. Playing for the right club and going to the right tournaments or being selectEd to Philly Showcase, Jake Reed or Maverick because your club Coach has 4 automatic bids helps. The best players don't always get these bids. The players on the right clubs do.

There is much talk about the "late bloomers" and where are they? The "late bloomer" is going to become extinct like the dinoaurs. Why is that? Because there is so much pressure to win at an early age on club teams, all the "early bloomers" are put on the A teams, regardless of their size. And when I say "early bloomer" I'm talking lax skill not physical size. A three foot eight kid who can sling it lefty will make the team all day long over a 4 foot four kid who is still trying to figure out what end of the stick to hold. So the tiny tyke plays with the best players and gets the best coaching. Fast forward to 8th grade and that A travel team is rolling, and some of the tiny tykes have monster stats. The team travels and college coaches start taking note. Now the potential "late bloomers" have been on B and C teams and the truth is, the club, the high school coaches and the college coaches could care less about them. So these players must either be at lesser public or private high schools to play and hopefully finally be coached. Now the top college coaches are falling over themselves to scoop up all the 9th grade (early bloomers) in the hopes that they hit the lottery and that player continues to develop, continues to grow, and continues to get good grades. Very few club coaches say, give me the best athlete and I will make him a great player. They say give me the best third grade lacrosse players and let the high school coach worry down the road. The only hope is that parity continues in the college ranks and the lesser D-1 schools make more informed decisions about more mature kids and start to compete with the early recruiters. But in the meantime, the moral of the story is, the train has left the station and the late bloomers have been left standing on the platform. In this fast paced, accelerated recruiting world, and the rise of the club teams, have your child up and running in second grade or find yourself chasing the early bloomers down the tracks.

You write this as if nothing ever changes in life. I could cite you examples as long as my arm of practices in all areas of life that were followed and later reversed. The only way early recruiting continues is if/when those teams that do it become unstoppable. Right now Notre Dame is the #1 team in the country and they actually have a reputatioins for poaching kids later. And you cannot go off 2 weeks of D1 results to proclaim parity or decide what it tells us about the long-term impact of early recruiting. The sample size just isn't big enought yet.

Not saying above is ideal. Saying it is what is happening. Parents aren't waiting for Notre Dame. They are jumping on Hopkins and Duke and the ripple effect is changing how parents operate regarding 9 year olds. I would much prefer the way it was 25 years ago. You know how many of us that played D-1 lacrosse and were recruited after 11th grade, say we would never play D-1 today? Lots. Do I hope that Notre Dame and Ohio State and others continue to poach players? Absolutely! By the way, my theory on why there are so many 5-9 attackman these days? Because no one is waiting until 11th grade and beyond to see who will actually grow. These little guys are not being discriminated against and are getting really good coaching at early ages, regardless of our their size. Add that to the rule changes and there is no longer a premium on size. The days of saying, oh, that kid is going to get killed out there are over. Not saying that it's bad. Just saying this is how the game has evolved. That diminishes a lot of the potential a "late bloomer" could bring into the equation. So yes, when the sample size expands and we have the benefit of time, we will see how it all shakes out. But I will say, most rational people would say that the recruiting of younger and younger kids is neither good for the game, not for the kids that we care so much about.

I can only speak for what I have seen. There are players that have committed to some really top notch programs at an early age that in 7th and 8th grade were absolutely the best players on the field. Yes skill wise and even a bit bigger than most in height and stature even some small players also. Now all of the sudden that kid that was on the B because, lets face it a team can really only carry so many players, starts to mature and develop their skills and all of the sudden grows a bit more and on his own puts in the time and effort to get better. They have had great coaching but were a bit immature at a young age. They now are driven and put in the work. They can and will absolutely pass the kid that now stands at 5'8 and fully grown. Now that kid who was overlooked has a chip on their shoulder is 6'1 and has put in countless hours of wall ball and training will pass the early bloomer. Not due to lack of effort but you can only get so much and so far out of a Honda. Quality yes, last a long time yes but know you have a kid thats was a sleeper turning into a Ferrari. I think this is happening now and more evident due to the sheer number of early commits in 9th and 10th grade. Early commits have been around for a long time but it was for the truly exceptional players. This is the same as club ball years ago the club teams were made up of top players even towns that had great history of lacrosse. When lacrosse became about money it has diluted the overall product. Could you imagine if the best players were selected in an unbiased manner from Long Island to make up one team. I dont think there is an area in the country that would even come close to the talent. I could name a combined team from 91, Express, Team Long Island, Jesters, and fl$ that would destroy anyone. The powers that control these teams would never let it happen because it would hurt their bottom line. So you know my own kid wouldn't be on that team.

I saw a few late bloomers from Limestone scrimmage UNC. They beat UNC's 1s very thoroughly. I saw a few more late bloomers absolutely wipe out UVA's 1s in another scrimmage. Today some top D3 teams can beat ranked D1 teams. The pushing for the best very young youth players hasn't yielded better college players. I am not just pointing to 2 weeks this spring when I note that. There are many 2016 and 2017 early commits in the DMV who won't see the field in college. Some of them aren't seeing the field at their prep schools. I've heard it all that these certain preps have all the best players, so second line middies there are great. Honestly, if you struggle to stand out junior or senior year of high school, early recruiting is a mistake.

Look, if my 15 year old gets an offer from a great school that is not an Ivy such as UNC, UVA or Mich he will take it and we will figure out whether he wants to keep it when he is 18...

That's the right approach..they won't offer you a dime yet..wake up ..geezz that's dumb

Go for the academics--all great schools, so who cares what they offer!

Richmond 12 Duke 10 Richmond has only been varsity for 3 years. PARITY and the sudden realization that recruiting 8th graders is not an exact science.

As irony would have it, we've not seen the fuller effects of ER yet. The HS 2017s were the first class to open the floodgates of 9th grade commits. These 2016s seniors had a few 9th grader commits, and then tons of summer rising soph commits. But what I call ER happened earlier. A lot of HS 2013s committed as rising juniors, then a lot of 2014s and 2015s committed as rising sophs. I would argue we're seeing a PARTIAL effect now with kids who are in college now. This college senior class will be the final chapter of college players who were offered and committed after they played the spring high school season as juniors.

People are free to take their own theories now. The data isn't complete yet, but the partial date in so far does make the point the ER is a poor strategy. Going early to get THE star in the class like Shack Stanwick or Ryan Conrad or Matt Rambo does get your team ONE great player on a given year. Considering Hop, UVA, UMD are all sucking now (and UNC has losses) to start this season before the real conference season starts for them is a REALLY bad sign. The problem now is if you harvest 9th graders and get one star, you're not set you're screwed because you have to field 10.

Also, at some positions like FOGO and goalie which are really important the ER there seems to be the worst. A good number of the top FOGOs and goalies in the college game today were not the Ty Xanders boy band kids from back in the day...you know, back in 9th grade brah!

I wish my team sucked as bad as Hop,Uva and Umd. They will still beat 95% of the other schools. Lets see who's there in the end.

60% of the time your point is correct 95% of the time.

UVA loses to High Point, Hop loses 3 early and needs a miracle to skate by Navy and Duke loses to Richmond. UNC gets doubled up by Hofstra. I'm not a hater of all those teams and I went to UVA and have been a Hoo fan my whole life. The real insiders and followers of UVA lacrosse have been noting the obvious for a couple years now.

Ty Xander's boy band lmfao. Still the facts that the likes of hop duke umd virginia still get the top rated kids according to that idiot and it is not working out. Let him go to the secondary type of recruiting showcases and see if he finds diamonds in the rough then I will give him some kudos. Those teams shouldn't lose games like this if they have these supposed top kids. Sorry those are facts.

The kids are getting a great education right. That should be the important thing.

It not early recruiting that is the problem-it is bad recruiting.
If they make early recruiting illegal it will be a advantage for the power schools. why would parents want early recruiting eliminated?
It would give the advantage to the schools even more than it is now.
The whole system is rigged in favor of the coach.
The big schools will put out feelers for top players under the table it happens all the time in other sports.

New to this so please pardon my I gnorance but could could someone school me on verbal commitments? I realize they are just that and there's no binding contract but what if a young athlete changes their mind in a year or two? Are they blacklisted? Do schools ever rescind offers and are there stipulations such as GPA, SAT scores?
Last question, are there any good sites or resources that can help someone navigate this process that you can point me to?

Kids can change their minds at any time until the sign a national letter of intent (NLI) in there senior year and you only sign an NLI if you are receiving athletic aid so no NLI for Ivy League, Military Academy's or D3. I kid that de-commits from a verbal usually does so with a new offer of a verbal commit from another school. Generally the verbal is between the coach and the player so some schools de commit if the coaches leave the school but that would probably be the younger players so the new coach can bring in his own recruits but every case is unique. A coach will generally tell the younger players that they must get X GPA and X SAT to be accepted and the verbal is contingent on but not guaranteed with admission. Coaches will generally not break a verbal commitment because they have a reputation to worry about and if they people start saying the have not honored commitments they would have a hard time getting them in the future. I have heard of coaches telling a kid that they have committed to another kid at the same position and tell the kid they will still honor the verbal but the kid might want to look for a different situation.

This is all my opinion from going through it a few times but every school and every case is different.

So at what point in the process does athletic aid get discussed? Do these verbals ever come with xxx dollars as part of the offer or is every case different?

Yes. The verbal agreement will include x percent scholarship. Of course at Ivies it's different. At Ivies there are no athletic scholarships and technically you are committing to the "Admissions Process" at an Ivy. Also, you could have a verbal commitment w a coach with no athletic money. They are offering u a spot, but no dollars.

Agree with this. At the time the coach offers a spot, they will give the scholarship dollars if they are offering dollars (if so typically 20-50% of all in cost) and the ACT/SAT minimum requirements, GPA requirement, and at the at the more academically challenging institutions, policy towards AP/Honors expectations.

Not a fan of Xanders at all, but to be fair these teams losing to some of these lesser known teams is more of sign of parity and the growth of the sport than it is an indictment of early recruiting. More kids are playing the sport than ever and there are plenty of talented athletes out there for the taking by these programs. On the other side of it, Denver and Notre Dame are two of the most notorious early recruiters as well as late poachers and its a good bet that both of those teams will be around come final four weekend. Seems to me Virginia is in trouble and I think that has to do with coaching, Hopkins has a young team and Duke and UNC had a lot of turnover on their rosters. Early season losses are one thing, but lets see who is there in May, Im guessing it will be the usual suspects.

Parity is the popular word in college lacrosse these days. Early recruiting seems to be a factor.

From an IL article 3/11/16:

"Simultaneously the recruiting timetable has shifted. Virginia, Hopkins, Maryland and North Carolina are the most aggressive early recruiters. Their coaches evaluate eighth and ninth graders, and have been offering to freshmen and sophomores. The strategy is unproven. It's equal to investing in start-ups instead of Fortune 500 companies."

"You know a lot more about a kid who commits before his senior year than a kid who commits before his sophomore year," Flanagan said. "Coaches loaded up on sophomore commits and missed on the kids who were slower to develop."

You actually made the best argument possible against early recruiting. If this game has grown to nationally played, AND there is talent on all corners of the US, AND it is impossible to canvas the US to diligence all of them in a 6-12 month window starting when they are in 8th grade, AND are ignoring the basic undisputable fact that boys have a lot of volatility in their physical, social and academic growth in their early to mid teens YOU'D PLAINLY AND SIMPLY BE OUT OF YOUR MIND TO RECRUIT AND BE DONE WITH IT WITH MIDDLE SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL UNDERCLASSMEN.

If you are making the argument that lacrosse has recently arrived as a real national sport for youth and high school play, then next look at what other more established sports have come to. There are reasons why the more developed sports don't broadly recruit early. Sure there is the outlier example here and there of some 8th grade prodigy in football or basketball or soccer who gets attention of colleges and it makes the news. But not dozens or hundreds. Big time programs in established sports are not making their bets until during or after junior year.

It comes down to gambling. When do you want to bet? When you have no information or when you have the most information?

Ty Xanders is a carnival barker. I find it incredible there are tens of thousands of people on twitter who could care one bit about his act.

I do agree that early recruiting is a factor, but how big of an impact it is having remains to be seen. When is the last time a team outside the Top 10 made it to final four weekend? The National Championships have been dominated by the programs that early recruit, so until we see a program that doesnt recruit early crack the final four I dont think we can definitively say early recruiting is hurting these programs. I think more than hurting the programs, early recruiting is hurting the kids. These programs are stockpiling kids 15-20 a class with the hope that a few of them actually pan out. The rest are relegated to the bench or practice players. Its up to the parents to make sure their kid is going to a program where he has the best chance to be successful, not one mommy and daddy can brag about at parties.

GREAT ACCURATE INFO ABOVE

Per Ty Xanders

The first 2020 boy will be announcing his commitment on social media this afternoon. Yes, an eighth grader. Let the floodgates open...

crush kid

how old is he?

Disgrace that these schools are doing this to the sport.

unless its your kid right?

Penn St? The #20 ranked team in lax and a state school? Would have thought him being the 1st ever 8th grade commit, he would have went top 5 school lax/academic school.

What are the parents thinking ?

THe kid is good, had to get a full ride in order to verbal to Penn State...Good education, yes...shot at a title in his 4 years, nil.

he is committing to a HS and College on the same tweet

Called ego not a bad thing nor a good thing..just worried there would be no more spots open. It was filling up fast

I'm just disappointed he's going to St. Anthony's...

That is it, if your son is a 2020 and he is not actively talking to a D1 coach he can assume he will not be playing D1 in college. LOL, I am being sarcastic, however, my bet is there are plenty of people out there that really believe that! my kid is a decent player and I can guarantee, he won't be doing anything before 11th grade at the earliest. And no, I don't think it will hurt his chances of playing in college. I actually wholeheartedly believe it will help him. I do wish the young man that committed all the luck in the world and if he and his family feel that it is the right thing to do for him, more power to them!

Any idea what year he is born?

Do you really think this boy said to his parents "I think it's time I commit to a college" . You know where this is coming from. I guess his travel program thought it was a good idea also. He now can skip playing travel save his money and play for the school only. I told my son today and he laughed. Just hard for me to figure this out so I might as well laugh also.. I guess this college coach will be there the next 9
Years. Lol . He must have guaranteed that to the parents. That would sell me. Thanks for the Friday night laughter that lacrosse has become.

The pressure and scrutiny of every bad pass or dropped ball will be unbelievable. I would have advised him to wait a year and the opportunity would have still been there. What position does he play?

If he's that good , which he is ,assuming it's him , why settle for PSU this early ??

So every team in the country will completely turn over twice between now and his college senior year and you're convinced that PSU has no chance of winning the championship? How can you be so sure?

As a Parent with 3 Kids that all played college lacrosse, I would say this is disgusting. Parents should be ashamed of themselves. This is NOT GODD, Let him be a kid. Wait, If he's that good it will not matter. As far as PS Coaches go SHAME ON THEM. This Great sport is in a really bad place.

LOL, who cares about winning a championship?

The pressure, the scrutiny, not letting him be a kid....whatever. See, it could be just the opposite. Maybe he will be more relaxed knowing that he doesn't have to worry about the mistakes and can play with abandoned and get even better. Oh, and now he doesn't have to attend Philly Freshman Showcase, Jake Reed, Maverick Showcase and so on and maybe spend his summers and fall being more of a kid than his friends who still need to hit the recruiting circuit. And mom and dad can probably save a ton of money.

Congrats to the boy, the family, PSU and to those of you who want to crap in early recruiting. Win win for everyone.

I completely agree that early recruiting is destroying the game. I despise the whole club scene, and wish we could go back to a time when official visits counted, when players decided what school to attend in their senior year.

That said, wouldn't you probably make the same decision if put in their place? Free school for four years, to a college that's very well regarded on the East Coast. And [lacrosse], if he turns out to be a real student, he can always renege and commit to an Ivy.

What's the downside for the player/parents?

The pattern on early recruiting seems to be that attack especially seem to get recruited first. The irony is that over time it is beginning to show that the late recruiting programs like Yale and Harvard are getting the best defensemen that are shutting down these early prodigy offensive recruits. Look no further than Yale shutting down Maryland's offense and Harvard with Jahelka and Duvnyak shutting down Duke's offense. Defense is where these programs should be recruiting early.

Or: both offensive and defensive players should be recruiting post-puberty, lol.

Should be shame in University and coach..he and others are using kids as pawns for job security so they can tell the school presidents look I have great kids coming in down the road you can't get rid of me. Banking on 14 year olds maybe 15 is scary

Jelousy is alive and well, only in this sport never seen anything like it. I love it when these parents go into an explanation of why early recruiting is bad but will spend thousands of dollars on showcases and club lacrosse . The only parents who think it's bad are the ones whose kids will NEVER be recruited. Don't criticize worry about your own.

Im sure there are plenty of people whose kids have already been recruited that are critical of early recruiting as well as people that have played, coached, or covered the sport. I think the prevailing opinion is that recruiting 8th graders is wrong, its not about the kid its the process thats broken.

Actually you are completely wrong, my kid committed early and was good choice for him but honestly was too early. Say what you want but these early commits are doing so out of fear and nothing else. The fear comes from a couple reasons, 1) there is a fear that all the spots on a school they may want to attend will fill up fast as a result of early recruiting,2) you need to commit while your kid is at the top of their game relative to others in the age group as who knows where they will be in a few years and or maybe if the coach sees my kid play a lot more they may think he is not as good .When a top school makes you a top offer there is no way to go but down in terms of offers.
In terms of reneging on a commitment that was not really a thought for us as when you make a commitment you are giving your word and that should mean something. Always shocks me that coaches are willing to poach players as it just shows you the character of a kid and his parents when they are so willing to jump programs. (i do get it when situations change as in coach changes etc.)

I agree with the jealous alive and well comment. why would any of you care if some kid gets recruited early? you would not even be on this board if you didn't have a kid playing, so please -look in the mirror before you look out the window.

as far as PSU, it is a great school with a vast alumni network and a top 40 academic school nationally. If that is not good enough for your kid, don't apply there.

I thought it's the kid and parent showing interest in the school first . Does the school contact them first???????isnt that illegal???? . The college coaches tell the kids to come down and checkout the school in 8 th grade???? Seems wrong on every level. My guess is that Penn State will be investigated again for some wrongful acts or maybe the 8th grader did some illegal act started by the parents or school . This is only going to open up Pandora's box ..Way to ruin it for the good clean kids and families

For those who commit early, just make sure that the school is a great fit for your son. There is no guarantee that your son will see the field. The players currently on the team were probably recruited , as well as the players that will be after you. Your son may be good enough to be recruited but playing in a game is a different story. How long is the current coaches contract for? He may be gone when your son arrives.
Again, school is for education 1st, then lacrosse. After 4 years of school/lacrosse, it will be time to find a job.
On a side note, 6 out of the 48 players on the current Maryland roster are from Long Island! How many thousands of boys play lacrosse on LI? Just saying!

Article said he is age appropriate.

Heard he was reclassed.

Anyone know truth. Great for the kid and family just wondering.

To each his own. My concern if it were my son would be if he'd be burnt and fried from the pressure of a grinding 5 years playing against bigger stronger faster 17 and 18 year olds, not to mention the physical toll - would he be grund up and limping onto the campus his freshman year or would he be better for the 5 seasons of of playing kids 3 and 4 years older, not to mention the the physchological grind of staying focused for 5 years and staying hungry. Time will tell if these young kids can handle all that and be the player the colleges expect. That's a lot on a young kid.

Immediately he will be expected to be better than anybody his grade and on par with any upperclassman. The big question will be how he'll handle long stretches of adversity when the points are difficult to come by while the expectations are only going tto be increasingly unrealistic. He'll either crush the skeptics or the pressure will crush him. I hope it's the former.

There will always be haters and people hoping he fails - its just the sad state of youth and high school lacrosse. Even the opposing teams and possibly some of his own teammates will have it out for him. That's the part that I hate to see with regards to early recruiting - all the other crap that goes along with it. Anyway, one of the more interesting sidebars to follow will be if he stays loyal to 91 through high school or does he switch over to the Express darkside.

My money is on staying loyal to 91 while he attends St Anthony's

We personally know two other boys currently in college who gave verbals in 8th grade, the difference was, the parents kept their mouths closed. Why advertise it?
What is 91 trying to up their income?

"as far as PSU, it is a great school with a vast alumni network and a top 40 academic school nationally. If that is not good enough for your kid, don't apply there."

Top 40 , I think not. According to who ,Joe Patterno.

Oh, stop with the drama! Kid is great, will stay great, and regardless he will receive big money from a great school, as the big money tends to go to the high profile earlies. Win-win! Great job kid!

Age appropriate- doing it the right way.

Every situation is different but in this case if you know the player and family this is a great choice. If you knew the kid and what he has done and how he got to where he is, you would be proud of him. He puts the time in and is the hardest working player I know.

As far as friends and teammates being jealous then you don't know him or have never been a true teammate. As far as early recruiting, it is a tricky thing, it should be for special players and people. He is both. Good luck - God Bless!!

Ps... I Still think he'll stay at PSU but play another sport. Return of linebacker U

Is there any family connection to Penn State???. That would help answer a lot of questions????

Happy for the kid and his family. Tough to turn down. Nonetheless, looking at the bigger picture vs. an individual kid, can't we all agree that with kids committing as an 8th grader or even early freshman year there is something seriously wrong with the sport? If a change is not made by the NCAA (the proposal is on the table for both boys and girls to make 1st day of junior year earliest time to verbal), then that institution lacks all perspective on what is best for the kids.

So is he 13 going on 14??? Or 14 going on 15?

.


Is he a hardship case . You say if you knew what he had done to get there..sounds like there were issues along the way? Or are you saying he works harder then any other kid out there?..just please don't tell me he was held back before kindergarten or later for educational reasons, if so then this all means nothing. Just trying to explain to my kid why these things happen at his age and the possible reasons behind it.

I think early recruiting is a beard for coaches who are not performing. If you can point to all the recruits or classes on the way and note they are highly regarded that can deflect the attention away from a program that isn't winning or is declining. It also attracts some notoriety to the program (not for the better I'd argue, but this is a reality TV crazy world). Dom Starsia has been doing this for a couple years now. If I were a Penn State fan I'd be concerned that Tambroni has not made an impact on the program to be consistent and competitive, and now he's gone out to do this. I'd agree that just one kid is more symbolic than a herd, but if you look at the programs who have used ER as a beacon none have done much. Hop -- needed a miracle turn around late last season just to make the NCAA and then made the FF for first time in a long time. UNC -- they have been a decent regular season team for year and years, but no FFs. UVA -- dumpster fire. UMD has had more success and their coach is going earlier and earlier in the past 18 months, so we will see how that rounds out for the Terps into the future. An argument could also be made that these coaches believe that if they have highly ranked recruiting classes stacked down for 3-4 years it will make them harder to fire...which if you think about it is pretty hysterical.

Ty Xanders ‏@Ty 12h12 hours ago
Face-off guys: Turn on the NCAA wrestling championships on ESPN. Watch these guys with their footwork and hands. Unreal. @Faceoff_Academy

Ooooohhhh, do I smell 2021s and 2022s and 2023s uncommitted face-off invite only clinics for kids who wrestle or watched wrestling on TV but also play lacrosse to be multi sport athletes combine? How do they pick all star teams at face off events, or do they all get to be all stars?

Does St. Anthony's allow freshman to play varsity? Is this kid ready for their varsity?

Age appropriate??

Hmmmmm...

That sounds like a fancy way of saying he was reclassified.

Born 2002- age 13... is that better?

He's evidently ready for Bayshore varsity but not even close to ready for St. A's varsity. This may be a way to shelter him for a few years from the physical pounding he would take by playing varsity for Bayshore.

So he is not even one of the older ones for his grade..that's great . Someone who is legit and playing clean with no stories behind him

No, not a hardship case, no not an academic issue (just the opposite as many lax rats are) DOB is 2nd qtr 2002 not a hold back. Wasn't meant to be read that way. He is a dedicated hard worker. Although, I am surprised he is actually playing for the town that DID NOTHING TO HELP HIM progress as a player. Him playing for the town shows a level of maturity that many others may not have exercised.

Tell your kid there are a rare few. Exceptions to the rule. He is an example that if you want something it takes genetics, hard work, mental focus, family commitment and dedicated TRAVEL coaches.

So you recommend he as an with grader say screw the school district??? At this point he is using them to play more lacrosse isn't he? He could have skipped the test .. He should be thanking them for letting him play up. Bay shore has a kid that's better then Rabil and should be proud. Anything less then that would be considered a disaster .

Wish him well, but my guess is if he is this good that everything he's getting now would be available to him in a year or so. And if Tambroni leaves is the next coach obligated?

He should be thanking them, you cant be serious! That is as laughable as you saying he is using them.

Kid is 13 won't be 14 for a couple of months does that pretty much clear it up, can't make it much simpler .

It is simple the kid is a stud plain and simple. Enjoy the ride kid!

Someone said about the town not helping him and he was doing them a favor by playing..which is the biggest joke. No one kid is bigger then any team

Either side is not obligated until Fall of his senior year when he signs his NLI. Kids decommitt and coaches void verbals all the time.

What exactly do you want "the town" to do to help an 8th grader progress as a player that they wouldn't do for everybody else? Exactly what kind of resources does the town have to dedicate to making a single 8th grade player better? Give me a break. You are exactly what's wrong with youth lacrosse.

The rule of pulling up a player exists solely because of players like him. Once in a decade, on age freaks who has the size speed and IQ. So don't tell me he should be thanking them for the opportunity to play up. They would be idiots if they didn't. (understand im not calling them idiots)

I don't think anyone, besides you, said him playing would be doing the town a favor. But now that you say it, I pose this question, who benefits more by the kid playing, player or team? Player doesn't need to play, but players play and he is an absolute player. Team on the other hand desperately needed him to get involved.

Thankfully the boy does have the maturity to know, it takes a team to have a season, and doesn't think he is better than the team.. but you and I know the team is much better because the player decided to play.

Lets not kid ourselves about a 13 year old's maturity regarding the strategy of where he plays and who he plays for. He's taking care of things he can control on the field but I'm sure his parents and club coach are calling all of the shots off the field. He'll miss his Bayshore teammates and friends in town for sure.

Most kids at that age are puppets to their parents and coaches . They are not mature enough to make decisions on their own. It's ok..They are still kids

100% true
He is a stud against his age group but playing in Suffolk A is a big boys league and he will be somewhat of a 'marked man'.
If nothing else, deciding on his college future at this juncture has made him the poster boy for early recruiting and his progress will be watched closely.
I hope for his sake he continues to enjoy the game and continues to mature emotionally and physically.
As far as Tambo is concerned, he should hide his head in shame.
Linebacker U...that's funny.

It is kind of funny that it's Tambroni doing the earlier and earlier recruiting move considering the best player that ever played under him was a kid that barely registered on the D-I recruiting landscape until the kid played his senior season.

"Suffolk A big boy league" ?? C'mon man get a grip. Most likely he will be playing against several 9th and 10th graders because just about all of the teams have them playing Varsity, the league will be full of them. What teams in that league would he not start on? Most of the teams in the league will not be very strong at all. He will do just fine. Best of luck to him.

The jealousy from other parents of a kid committing never ceases to amaze me. Happens on the boys and girls side. Be happy for the kid. It is the system that needs to be changed by the NCAA (boys and girls coaches have submitted proposals) and until that happens or enough data is there to say early recruiting doesn't work, nothing will change.

Moving to St. Anthony's takes care of the problem playing against bigger, stronger, faster. He won't play varsity until a couple of years from now given the system that St. A's operates.

Suffolk A is widely considered one of the best lacrosse conferences in the country. Not going to name them all but he wouldnt start on at least 6 teams in Suffolk A if not more. Im sure [lacrosse] be fine and it will be a great learning experience for him. Best of luck to him either way.

You might consider it one of the best HS lacrosse conferences in the country but that should tell you all you need to know about HS Lacrosse. The reality is that Suffolk A is usually a two or thee team league. I would say the 8th grade kid would start or see significant playing time on all but one or two teams, maybe three. You say six, I doubt that but even if true, there are 24 teams in the league the fact that he would Start on 18 - 22 of them is sad. Most if not all of the teams will be running a fair amount of 9th and 10th graders. So please stop pounding your chest about how competitive the league is. The facts say otherwise. The top few teams are good every year and thats about it. If it were as competitive as you like to believe we would see different teams winning the championship each year. How many teams in the league will be starting three upperclassmen studs on attack this year? It would not be a stretch to say this kid could start on just about any team in the league. Who has the top attack unit ?? Smithtown East? Connetquot? Sachem North? West Islip?

West Islip
Ward Melville
Northport
Smithtown East
Smithtown West
Hills East
Hills West
Connetquot
Sachem North

He wouldnt start on any of these teams. Agreed the rest of the league is mediocre but that group right there can be pretty competitive and has been for years. Not pounding my chest at all, just pointing out that Suffolk A is considered an extremely competitive conference and historically those teams give preference to the older more experienced kids and that is a fact.

Speaking of linebacker U...Does he play football? He's a big 8th grader.

Bay shore only plays 4 games against what you would call top A teams so there will be plenty of games to pad the stats and make it look good

From what you just said it doesn't sound like your kid is that much of a stud. Do you really want your 12 or 13 year old hanging out with 18 year old kids? Your probably in a small school that does not have a good number of kids to choose from and they are bringing up your son. That's what it sounds like to me. There's a big difference maturity wise in a 13 year old and an 18 year old. I just hope your son doesn't get hurt playing with the bigger kids. If I were you I would let him stay at middle school he can go up next year. Well best of luck to your son. Think about it.

Yes, he would start on most or get plenty of playing time on the teams that you list. Please do not act as though it is unheard of for 9th graders to see a lot of time on those teams. He as good or better than most if not all 9th graders that have come through in the past several years.

He would start on WI for sure.

Besides the fact he is in 8th grade .. You are talking about Suffolk county not Nassau correct?

Not even close, they have 4 committed 2017 and 2016 attackmen and the head coach always favors the older kids. Try again

The fact is 2019 and 2020 classes are very strong. A lot of extremely good lacrosse players with outstanding IQ's and stick skills that are better then the older kids. I see it with my high school. The younger kids are better lacrosse players plain and simple.

Bay Shore had a game against Islip yesterday, howd that go?

Bay Shore is lucky to have him play with them. His level of play is way above what Bay Shore is producing. As far as leaving school im sure he will know a good amount of kids going to st anthony's.

Syosset kid played as an 8th grader...worked out pretty well for him as it has him at Hopkins.

would start on GC so he wouldn't go to Chammy

OK, so who is next to come off the board at 2020?

Sorry, you have absolutely no idea what youre talking about. The 2017 and 2018 classes on Long Island are absolutely loaded with excellent lacrosse players. I dont know what high school your speaking of but if the 2019 and 2020 classes are better than the 16's, 17's and 18's, its gonna be a long long year for you.

i agree. this is from some freshman mom at best. what an idiotic post.

Welcome to the world of pressure and stats, not fun for these high profile early commits, you need a thick skin!

to say 2017 and 2016 are not loaded means you haven't followed LI lax for a while. each year has its studs play makers and avg palyers.

I will say there are pockets of 2019 towns and even less 2020. 2021's step it up a knotch again but even at 2019 you never know what you will get in the next few years. Cant compare 2019/2020 to '16 '17

cmon mom. send your little 2019/2020 towards my 2016 kid so my kid can pound your little tyke. But then you will call for a penalty..and complain about playing against older kids.

Better stick skills please can they face dodge, bull rush a guy, blow passed a guy , the answer is no. Please shut up and enjoy watching the older boys that are on your sons team.

Wow big tough guys!! Again fathers who rant on here because they sucked in athletics growing up. Living through your boys!

probably knocked you on your butt too

Lets face it every year has its strong players and club teams. Many of the best club teams are loaded with talent and as a whole the players look better on the team then they are as individuals. These players get the looks because they happen to play on a club team that has been together for a long time and they have won many tournaments and showcases. Each year has had these particular teams.

Now you take some of these early recruits and you see that they mostly play for strong club teams that have given them exposure. A town team player or a player that doesn't play for one of these elite club will not get this exposure at such an early age. Maybe the club coach has connections and is promoting the kid to college coaches at an early age. Most people will say that "well if a player is so good he would get picked up by one of these elite club teams". That is not the case and if you have been around travel ball you know there are many reasons why some kids are not picked to play on these elite teams. Like not trying out, politics and nepotism and or pay your way onto a team etc. It happens all the time. I have seen it many times when you take the so called elite club team player and put them in an unbiased playing situation they don'ts stand out like they do on their club team because plays aren't drawn up specifically for them or they haven't had the chance to practice or play with the other players at the prospect day or individual showcase like they do with their own teammates. I am not saying that there are not studs and regardless of who they play with or against they will shine but there are not as many as people assume or predict. Many so called great players are a product of a well coached team and they fit well into a system that has been built around them and their teammates.

I have said it before early recruiting has been around for a very very long time they just weren't publicized like it is in this day and age of social media and extended coverage of lacrosse. Most early commits were in 10th and 11th grade but weren't publicized until signing day.

Coaches void verbals all the time? I am not trying to be confrontational, I didn't know that. This is the first time I have ever heard anything but the standard line " coaches never void the verbal, even if it is a new coach because its bad for recruiting". I know the kids do it, I didn't know it was happening in reverse as well. This is a little disconcerting as my son is a 2019 and still has two years to go until his NLI - if he even gets there. I understand academic and behavioral issues could lead to a de-commit, but your post makes it sound like it is a little more arbitrary. If anyone else knows about this happening all the time, I would love to be enlightened. Definitely something I would like to know going in.

Rarely happens.

Happens ALLLLLLLL the time in Football, heck there are even twitter account parodies of specific coaches(ahem Michigan coach, Alabama coach) who are notorious for offering 150 verbals a recruiting cycle for 25-30 roster spots. As for lacrosse specific, look at what is going on at U Tampa. The earlier and more frequent early recruiting gets, you can bet your dollars on it increasing.

Ok....so when does it happen ALL THE TIME in Lacrosse?? I only know of one out of the hundreds of kids I'm familiar with. And it was for a good reason, and all the fault of the kid. Can you please cite some examples of your false claims?

And FYI, Tampa not a reputable D1 program, should not even be in this conversation,

I guess reading comprehension is not one of your strengths. It clearly states, as early recruiting increases and becomes more frequent, one can bet over recruiting will occur. And to the other poster, again reading is fundamental. Never said Tampa was D1 did I?

Im around this game more years than I care to divulge. I know what I know.
I guess your not familiar with Penn State circa 2011 recruiting class and verbals.

My reading comprehension is fine. You are on speculating. There are barely any examples of D1 lacrosse coaches decommitting kids. If you believe I'm wrong, please provide some examples! If anything, kids switch their commitment to find a better fit. As long as a kid adheres to the verbal agreement, coach would not decommit.

It does happen a lot. The first thing Tambroni did when he took the Penn State job was to release all the commits and he told them he may or may not recruit them again. That should serve as notice for any HS underclassman who commits to UVA or another program where the coach is headed out the door. It also happens a lot more than people think when kids decommit here and then commit there. This can be a family just upgrading from a Furman to a UNC but just as often it is a kid who is getting a signal that he's not lined up well anymore to get the earlier promised scholarship and he should consider looking into other options. That is a polite way of saying you can come here and walk on but that may not be in your best interests.

The Penn State example is not really a good one, because he did not recruit those kids. Yes if you commit early and the coach leaves for whatever reason your verbal is obviously null, unless the new coach wants you. My point still remains that it is extremely rare for a coach to decommit a kid he recruited. Simply does not happen, provided the kid adheres to the specifications of the verbal. I've been through this with two sons and practically every kid in their recruiting cohort is going where they committed. You are correct that some switch their commitment, either because they did not meet Ivy requirements or they got a better offer because their level of play increased dramatically. This I found to be the exception, not the norm.

Happens a lot? What is your definition of a lot? To me a lot would be 8 out of 10 kids...I think your over the top on your call there.

People are on here questioning why an extremely talented 2020 would early commit, while I'm guessing he got a pretty substantial commitment from PSU.
The one's I don't quite understand are the 15+ 2019s committing to Maryland. (A similar state school to PSU, btw.) So far there are 7 Middies and 3 FO/M. Are they committing just for a chance to try-out? with a good chance of being red-shirted freshman year and possibly the next. I'm guessing 2018 has a similar sized class, which then brings it to how much money is actually available when there are only 12.6 scholarships available per team, with a roster size around 50 the athletic scholarship money can't be much. (I realize there's always academic money)
Again, not sure why some are questioning a full scholarship verbal commitment to PSU and not those who are accepting a rather limited Verbal to Maryland.

As a side note, having gone through this with a baseball son a few years back, what coaches & recruiters always told us "If you could throw a 95mph fastball or hit a 95mph fastball" a school would always be able to 'find' you scholarship money. Unfortunately my son could do neither, and I'm not sure what the lacrosse analogy would be, but even in later years there are slots available, so this whole notion of slots disappearing is not quite true for kids who can really play.

My biggest problem with this recent 2020 Verbal, is that now on my son's 2020 summer team, there will be those 2 or 3 parents, who will feel further enabled to loudly encourage their sons from the sidelines to do it 'all', just to showcase. And not sure how this helps to develop middle school players to play a team based game.

The U Delaware coach this past summer fired all of his assistants and voided all of the 2016 verbals and went and recruited all new kids. While this is certainly not the norm, it is a good example of the volatility of this process and how nothing is guaranteed.

Or dartmouth

Where did it say that this kid got a "Full Scholarship"? PSU carries 43 players. I know many coaches like to give something to each kid. That equals about 0.3 of a scholarship or around $14K for out of state tuition of $48K.

Ok, what happened at Dartmouth?

I can accept to an extent that coaches are loathe to drop recruits. But weren't they also loathe to join the earlier recruiting trend? Wasn't that something none of them ever did 3 years ago? It is also a given none have never had commits who went from 8th or 9th grade to 11th grade without getting better (or have seen other recruits in the same class pass them by).

Quite honestly, are these really men who are beyond reproach? They went early to compete, and if they needed to dump recruits to compete they'd do this as easily. Dropping a recruit will be a bad thing and something that singles out a coach in a negative way only until the next coach does it too and then a herd of them do it after that. Who is the bad guy then?

Even In Bernie Sander's world, if this kid is in the top 1% for both the 2020 & 2019 class, which people on here seem to think, then he would definitely be getting more than 0.3. There would be just a little less shares for the rest.

I don't think it ever did, anywhere. Just speculations on such an early valuable commit. Lets not blow that out of proportion, only the family and school will truly know what was offered to them.

I think de-committing is starting to happen at a more rapid pace as is poaching committed players. There are plenty of stories of kids not getting in to their committed university for a variety of reasons including academics. It would be more interesting to see how many play all four years at college. Many drop out before their junior year

Yes, I shouldn't have speculated 'full scholarship' and stuck with 'substantial', but let's be honest, if he's truly the #1 recruit in the country for both 2020 & 2019 as some have said on these forums, then anything less than 95% for such an early top rated recruit is not what I would expect. And I'm speaking in general terms, not even this particular player/family. Would go for any Top 5 recruit in any sport.

Not true, the very best are getting 50-70% of total cost, I know a few that have been considered the best in their positions and this is what they are getting. Some say full ride because they are getting 100% of tuition, which is not really a full ride. I think any kid that gets upwards of 25% of total cost has done really well.

Agree with this, this has been our experience as well.

The way it was explained to me with my son is that no one gets a full ride, the max you can get is your full tuition covered. Room and board are never covered and unless your dirt poor youre not getting financial aid. Depending on his academics my son has the opportunity to get up to his full tuition covered. From what Ive seen and heard anything more than 25 percent is big

And many are NOT de-committing in the Jr (2017) class. Our son was a very early freshman commit to a top 20 D1 program. he has had a few other D1 programs "lightly" approach him thru a club coaches, but it was NEVER a "rapid pace of poaching". And exact same goes for several of our friends sons in same age. that committed as freshman also.

We read stuff on here 2 years ago that kids like mine would "de-commit" or not be as good as they got older or wouldn't get in due to academics. Well our son KEPT his committed, the coach HASNT been fired, he was approved by admissions an he is nationally ranked player.

So any of you with younger kids committed already, dont believe half the crap you hear or read, dont let these people who's kids are NOT being actively recruited SCARE you. Most are are envious/jealous of you and your son.

Only thing to say to someones son whom commits at ANY age is - CONGRATS.

Exactly the same story over here. You are on Point!

I think your nuts but congrats to your kid who has a good head on his shoulders. Be real man not alot of kids are that focused. I have four and only one knew what he wanted to do. They are all athletic and played hs lax. Just because a kid makes a verbal doesn't mean alot in most cases. If you were a kid wouldn't you want to go to duke or ND? Who wouldn't. Maybe two out of ten really know what they want to do. Don't try to encourage people to tell their kid oh that's great. Your leaving out alot of info. You could probably afford it but others may not. That's just for starters. If I have to explain the rest to you then you have problems. What's good for one may not be good for others so put a lid on it. People like you would make other kids feel like crap nd you would enjoy it I'm sure. Think before you speak. Happy easter. Go say a prayer for those less fortunate. Tone it down a bit.

Congratulations to all of the young men and women who have been recognized by college coaches and have been recruited and accepted offers. You have been blessed with athletic ability and I am sure that you have worked extremely hard on the field and in the classroom.

To all the jealous bitter haters out there. Give it a rest. Be happy for someone other than you child.

That's the key .You think people are jealous of you the parent..Wake up no one cares about you the father.Its about the kid to a lot of us but obviously your ego is more important than your sons well being..Think about it

I really don't get when people say that the kids don't know what they want to do. Most of these big schools have great business programs, science programs and liberal arts. You need graduate/secondary schooling in most cases to go on to be a lawyer, dr, teacher, journalist, therapist, etc. You may be able to land a job in business at an entry level spot, but many go for their MBA as well. It's not like these kids are choosing schools that don't have well established programs that will meet the interests and goals of 95% of incoming freshman. Plus, come sophomore year when you declare a major many kids are still undecided and choose a major that they will not end up working in ever.

I personally think if you are offered a sizable chunk off of any decent school, it's a win! I agree with the previous poster as well- only thing to say to an early commit is congratulations.

Agree with most of what youre saying here, I have a committed son as well but our experience has been a little different as he did not commit as early as your son. If a kid such as yours stays the course and is able to get into a rigorous academic school and keeps his commitment he should get all the credit in the world as it is not easy for a kid that age to stay focused and keep his eyes on the prize.

I think where a lot of the negativity and jealousy comes from are these so called "high school lacrosse experts" who are ranking kids in 8th and 9th grade which puts undue pressure and attention on kids who should be focusing on getting better and enjoying high school not worrying about where they are ranked. As I think you know, those rankings are HIGHLY subjective and in the scheme of things mean absolutely nothing. This is not to disparage your son in any way as I am sure he is a fine player but the reality is most of those rankings are self serving and political. The only true measure of a player is their impact on a varsity field not what some so called "expert" thinks because he saw the kid at some showcase or club tournament. Some kids stand out early and everyone knows they will be great players moving forward, as for the rest I think that story is written as they progress. Some will go on to do great things, others will not.

Finally I completely agree with your last statement, any kid who commits to a D1 program in the current competitive climate as it is deserves to be congratulated and celebrated, not criticized as it is a pretty darn impressive accomplishment considering the statistics of how many kids actually get the opportunity to play college lacrosse.

I don't note this to poke anything negative at families or kids, but the context does beg for a few more details. My son is also a 2017, he did not commit early. He had some opportunities but not ones that were at schools on his very narrow dream list, or they were weaker academic colleges we as parents just blocked off. He is a good enough student and player to go the NECSAC route. Our family does get lightly approached as well about the possibility of being a preferred walk on (a roster spot recruit with no money) by a few now including, to my surprise, one on his very short list from 9th grade.

His very short list in 9th grade had three schools, all of which were fabulous lacrosse programs at good academic colleges, but now his preferences with a blank piece of paper are none of the three.

The 2017 class was the first one where early 9th graders committed in large numbers. But early recruiting was hardly pioneered in his class. There are current college sophs who committed as rising sophs in large numbers. I would argue this trend has reached onto the field and we are getting early data on the early recruiting now.

Hopkins = nailed it with the class that is now sophs, they appear to have found a few freshmen who can play. Their HS early commits in our hotbed area I'd say are some hit and many miss. One Final Four last year after 8 years of no Final Fours.

UNC = kind of a mess. They rode the Sankey / Bitter show (which was last year's college seniors who were from an era before 9th or early 10th grade ER in large #s) with ok results. They are not strong this year and look like a program that will be in build mode for the next 1-2 years. No Final Fours in last decade. I have seen all of the early recruits in our area and most in other areas to UNC and as a whole it is a very underwhelming group. Breschi knows he needs to poach like crazy in the next few years to survive and he is doing it in a big way.

UVA = absolulte dumpster fire to quote Quint Kessenich. Half the kids on the team are considering quitting (my son is very close friends with two first year players and we know one of their families very well). The current players and families seem happy enough with UVA as a school, but there is a pall hanging over the program and it is hard to imagine the coach won't leave after this year. I have seen UVA recruits in our area and around and it has a star or two in each class, but then a lot of mistakes after that.

I think people should suspend belief over "what can't happen" or "what never happened" considering there hasn't been an era like the one starting now where programs can implode fast by recruiting and managing the program poorly for a few years...then it starts to show up.

You make total sense, it all comes down to this: nothing is for sure until they sign the NLI and then it is only guaranteed for a year. If you child "commits" with this in mind, then they won't be totally surprised if something changes. I would say, you ALWAYS need to have a back-up plan. Will early "commitments" work for some kids, yes, will they not work out for others, yes.

I'm not sure if this is true anywhere else, but I have seen the Penn State NLI. It stated in writing that the agreed scholarship amount is guaranteed for all 4 years, and will not be reduced. It can go up based on performance, but not down. Maybe that's a reason that certain schools offers are more attractive than others?

I believe the B1G conference put that 4 year clause into NLIs in 2014. Not all programs or conferences have the same. That written, one further caution. The money can be guaranteed for 4 years, but the coach can still cut a player. That's happened before at some programs in and beyond the B1G. For example, lots of kids transfer out of Maryland after first year. Tillman constructively exits kids by telling them they are out of the picture and he'll give them a release if they'd like to play somewhere else. That's no different from being cut.

From Quint Kessenich's piece in Inside Lacrosse magazine today.

"Early recruiting is disgusting: The evaluation and recruitment of eighth- and ninth-graders disgusts me. Penn State recently reached a verbal agreement with an eighth-grader. It's flat out wrong on many levels. Coaches I respect and admire are participating. They must not see the damage they are doing at the high school level to kids and their families. Nobody benefits from this."

I don't belive the parents on this site. Any kid that gives a verbal so early I guess you can call it good thing. Talk to me when the kid signs a letter then I'll be happy. See most people are true to themselves and of their children. I for one know that my kids can make any travel A team around here. That's with taking the politics out of it and basing it on talent. So what should I do take them to a college that I can't afford or wait that he can't afford. See people this is reality. Most people don't have the big bucks that most of you on this site seem to have. I would never do that too my kids. Why feed them a dream when I know they are above average students and not scholars. You see this is what real people think about when there kid is talking about college. Maybe you should try to have friends that are average as far as income and not as fancy of a car that you have. Don't look down upon others cause carma is a [lacrosse]. People aren't mad that the kid gave a verbal it's more about the parents on this site. You need to get a life and be realistic. You think your kid could go to a 50 or 60k school if you didn't make alot of money. You would not be writing stuff on this site if your position was different. Be thankful you got it like that. The percentage of kids committing to D1 schools is nothing compared to the amount of kids that are playing the sport.

what's carma?

First of all, if finances are an issue for you? You need to look into needs based aid. If you're looking at Ivies and Patriots, and make less than $150,000 a year, you're looking at getting 50% on needs based alone. Bring your income down to $75,000 and you're looking at nearly 100% needs based. Many other schools follow the same program. If money is still an issue, look at SUNY schools. $22-23k a year or less. Further, if your son has decent grades and is an exceptional lacrosse player he may be able to garner upwards of 55% at a $57,000 a year school at a mid-level D1 program.

Here's another novel thought; if money is tight stop shelling out thousands for travel lacrosse, over priced showcases, off season training, personal coaches, etc. Amazed at how many people cannot get the money out of their pocket fast enough to pay for travel lacrosse but then complain they can't afford college. Everyone makes choices.....

Quint is biggest jerk off of all time looks like an elf

You're right. It isn't like he's the greatest living goalie or own national championships at Hopkins. What does he know.

Excellent goalie, Hall of Fame definitely. Don't know about 'greatest living'.

Plus, if he thinks early recruiting is disgusting, how can he say in the next line 'coaches I respect'. That respect should be thrown out the window if he truly believes it's disgusting.

It's just as bad as the coaches who say it's wrong but early recruit anyway.

Glad that Hopkins degree is paying off, lol!

Was there a point in this mess somewhere? Drunk posting is usually not a good idea.......

Hes wrong, the money grubbing clubs and useless showcases benefit greatly from this.........

Just because he had some success on the field doesn't mean he's the all knowing lax god. When he has the opportunity, does he use his time on TV to call these schools out on early recruiting? NO. Does he call for change and an age based system in the youth leagues with all the holdbacks and double holdbacks? NO. How about his girlfriend Carc? He runs the most exclusive Showcase in Lacrosse recruiting. Does he stand up and make the that event age based? NO. That's all you need to know about Quint, he's a coward as is his buddy. Just soaking the game for as much money as they can. Plain and simple.

Ironically, both you guys have a good point....

To be fair I have heard him on gameday blasting the recruiting process and he has always been critical of the club lacrosse circuit. As far as Carc and Showtime, no one in lacrosse runs age based showcases so you cant be too critical of him for that. If your saying he should stand up and be a leader and make it age based, your point is well taken. I think Quint and Carc honestly care about the game. Yes they are both benefiting financially from it, but I think there are other people to point to that need to step up and make the changes necessary.

Sorry, I'm confused now. Does Quint's employer ESPN have a club lacrosse program I'm unaware of? His ESPN paycheck is for covering college lacrosse, but he's one of few guys who has crossed the chasm to be a very successful ESPN reporter and broadcaster in other college sports. He doesn't make a living from lacrosse, and for years ran a goalie camp at Boys' Latin for kids down all the way to age 8. My son did that camp twice and it was fantastic. Based on what it cost and how many coaches were there instructing I doubt Quint cleared much if any money from it.

Quint's job in the booth is not to politic the innards of the game. His job is to cover the game. As a writer for Inside Lacrosse he is covering a wider scope and makes his opinion editorial known. Clearly some don't agree with his views on early recruiting, but is not expressing that view on anonymous chat boards. At some level it might be uncomfortable for Quint to know Petro and others well but also criticize them where he disagrees, but he walks that line and does it. That is not cowardly, it's just a view you don't like hearing.

How do you know what he does and doesnt do!!! Your just assuming you know. What the guy has is years of experience playing at the highest level, years of experience coaching, and years of experience covering lacrosse, and as a matter of fact other college sports for ESPN. What more do you need to receive some credit and respect by all the All American parents on this site. Come on people. What more can the guy do to let coaches know that he hates the early recruiting. He said how he feels and now people are attacking him.

Whats your profession. Arent you just soaking up what you do to make a living because you are good at it. You make no sense

If anyone is interested Penn State over undefeated #1 Denver 15-10 final. In this current enviornment any given day.

I just played the rewind of MSG varsity's All star show where they picked their Metro MVP's for 2015 Carc was saying how he thought HS is much better lax than club HS. How HS is the best way to see how a kid plays. He absolutely downed the notion of Early recruiting to the point that I know may put him in

WHAT? REALLY!

I am sure his tune will change after he sees some of these true young guns play.

Id love to see some of the top 2020 club teams play some of these JV teams tlk about precision and practice till perfection.

Playing on a top club team does get you to the most competitive events against better competition, but in my opinion the better the club team the worse the player development. The top clubs just want the club resume to read success placing kids to colleges, so they rush that early process and then move on. Have you seen a 10th or an 11th grade club lacrosse event in the past year? UGLY. Lots of committed kids who haven't gotten better since 8th grade. Just plain ugly. Top club teams also have the effect of hiding pretty good players and on a top team it gets harder to not mistake them as better players than they are. Filling a narrow role on a club team and playing in only a few games that are better than 15-3 type scores doesn't prepare a kid physically or mentally to play college lacrosse. This is one thing that Quint opined on and he is right.

Everything is relative but to me if that is what you see you not watching a top club play. Question, How many top clubs keep it together past summer after soph year? I'd agree on scond tier

No the kid who was the stud in 8th grade was the early bloomer and looked head and shoulders above everyone else. This is so true in so many cases. Seen it time and time again. And when other kids catch up in regards to growth and puberty it's a different story.

I've had different experieneces. The 8th grade varsity pull-ups I know may have dipped a year (sophomore slumps - it happens) but in my experience are still the top kids in the class . Not to say others in other peoples experience it is different but you say time and time again I don't see time and time again.

I have seen many early bloomers in 8th and 9th grade look incredible because they reached puberty early and became bigger stronger faster and when the other boys caught up they didn't look so good. And a lot of kids surpass them. I think with this early recruiting we will see the parity continue through college lacrosse.

This wouldn't be a problem if only the handful of 8th grade studs brought up to varsity were the ones being recruited early. The issue here is that every single college commit these days is being recruited/committed early.

Obviously, you have some sort of personal connection here. However, I will engage you. So I ask you: Is Lacrosse now just a business? Or is it a sport? To compare it to a regular business is a ridiculous notion. When you make your living off the sport you played, you should, and will be held to a higher standard. You should be a role model for the sport. You should fight for change and use your position to better the game. Can you agree with that?
To your point, these guys reached the highest levels of the sport. With that, comes a responsibility to be a leader. To stand up for what's right. In PC's case, when you line your pockets with the cash of parents of kids who are trying to get recruited, you'd better be squeaky clean. When your camp promotes and allows kids who are two years older than age appropriate players to play down in your event, you my friend are part of the problem. He's feeding the early recruiting machine, plain and simple. When you have the platform (ESPN) and the top camp, you're in a position to help change what's wrong with game. When you instead choose to follow the money, you lose respect with people. You can sugar coat it all you want, but the guy is disingenuous. So what he says, and what does (and profits from) are two very different things. Not sure of where that guy was in 8th or 9th grade, but if he was competing for a spot at SU against kids two years older, like todays 8th and 9th graders have to do at his exclusive camp, there's more than a significant chance he never makes it.

No personal connection at all. We are talking about Kessenich voicing his dislike of early recruiting. Kessenich voiced his dislike of it and how his friends who coach that he respects are doing it. What more can he do.

Gibberish.

Quint is terrible and shockingly enough not respected by people in the sport. Since he started other sports on ESPN he comes out of left field very often ill informed. Sons coach has a few friends on MLL teams and he is despised there which is why he has been taken away from most MLL action. Guy is a fraud. Now Evan Washburn, Carcaterra or even yesterday Ryan Boyke are true professionals. Quint is not

I'm thinking that you are referring to boys lax. Because of you are referring to girls' lacrosse - you are way off. Is this why your 'chose' not to have your kid(s) play on "top club teams"?

Terrible or not he is all we have to grow the sport right now. Do you really think he wants to ruffle feathers and ask the hard questions and cause problems. He wants to keep this career going. There are so many problems in the sport and you can point fingers all day. Change is slow process. You can look back as far as the Gait brothers and how old they were when they played at Syracuse. Early recruiting was not big in those days. Freshmen were 18 not 19-20. You went to a school after you decided in 11 -12 grade and STAYED THERE. You didnt commit early and then only last a year because you don't like where you are. When you have kids that are 21 yr old freshmen things are going to happen. Last thing and I have played the game for 40+ years at all levels IT IS A BUSINESS

I'd never put PC and RB in same category as Washburn. Washburn is the only one of the bunch to truly handle multiple sports, extremely well.

RB is the leader of promoting holdbacks and teaching players and families on how to beat the system, who are you kidding?

As I stated above, Carcaterra says he's against early recruiting, yet he promotes it and profits from it through his Elite Showcase camp. He further is an active participant and facilitator of the holdback and double holdback scourge as well. Not bashing the guy, just stating the facts. Can't say one thing and profit from the exact opposite.

I totally agree with you. Here's another thought: If these same parents spent their thousands of dollars on math or science extra help, extracurricular courses or summer camps instead of travel lacrosse and clinics, their kids could get a much more valuable academic scholarship, succeed throughout college and then land a high-paying job once school ended. Great math skills can get you very far in life as math builds critical thinking skills necessary for any rewarding career. It's the nerds that make the big bucks, not the athletes. For every successful professional athlete, there are many more successful businessmen in the corporate world. I also don't understand why parents spend so much money on a sport in which there is no chance of earning a living playing it. If your son is a great athlete, steer him towards the sports that pack the stadiums and are on primetime TV. Lacrosse peaks in college and then it fizzles. It's a dead-end sport. I've been to MLL games. D1 (even D2 and D3) college games much more exciting.

I agree, the money probably would be better spent elsewhere . That being said, I have a find who's kid is lights out and LOVES the game, so in some ways, he is stuck so I donut blame hi for going Fla and other places. He refuses to hold his kid back a year though.But unless you kid is lights out money spent on other extra curricular activities , Eagle Scout, etc will help more for getting into schools and getting money off. If you are very good student and your borderline for a certain college they may take you if you play lax, practice squad players always needed and players who bring the team average up. I have seen not so good players helped pt get into a place because they play.

I used to agree with what your saying but I'm starting to not believe it anymore. I have a close family friend who's son does extremely well in school. As of right now he is ranked 2nd in his class and has over a 100 weighted average. He is in all honors classes and take multiple ap courses. He also did extremely well on his sat's. He's in some clubs but does not play any sports. He applied to about 10 very good schools including some ivy's. So far he's only got into one school he applied to. There's been at least 5 or 6 that said no or has wait listed him. I know another kid who was a great wrestler in high school and had like a 90 average. He is now a freshman at Harvard. If it wasn't for wrestling he had ZERO chance of going to Harvard.

I'm surprised that your friend's son school acceptances are going tougher than expected with that perfect grade average and high SATs. Can his lack of sports be the only reason? Hard to believe but your story about the wrestling kid confirms it. I'm glad to hear it helped him get into Harvard.

Top schools want unique. Some of the schools he applied to had 50,000 applicants for 2,500 spots. Unfortunately smart white men are not that unique. State wrestling champions are. To be fair the wrestler is very intelligent. Although his gpa was in the low 90's he scored very high on the sat's. Couple that with over 200 career wins and a state championship he could of went to any ivy or patriot league school.

HE IS A STATE CHAMP or a 1 percenter. the rest of us 99 percenters are better off with tutors

Ver few kids in the top cohort are getting into top 10 schools without a special, unique standout talent. That actually trumps good grades by a decent margin. The way it goes now, unless you are a minority, and even they are getting turned away like the white boys!

It's not necessarily that those in the "top cohort" don't get in to these top tier schools (top schools are made up of these top students), it's just that they have to basically roll the dice when it comes to the admissions process. Good non-URM students have to just throw applications all over the place and see what sticks.

Acceptance to the elite colleges is a daunting task, and there are a variety of reasons that extrodinary grades aren't enough anymore.

First is the ever growing number of applicants without increased numbers of spots. Personally, I blame the common application for this. Think about it, in the old days you had to fill out specific unique applications & write an essay that answered a specific question that the school had on their application, This was a pain in the [lacrosse], and most kids pushed back on the work of doing more than 5 or 6. It was always "one safe, one reach, and 4 probables". Couple that with the fact that the cost of applying to college hasn't really gone up much. In the 70s and early 80's it was about $35-40 bucks per school, now it's $60-80 per app. Most parents are okay with sending out a few extra apps, considering the competition for acceptance, and the kids are now only doing one application so they're on board with more too. Now kids are applying to mid teens, just making getting in that much harder.

Then look at it from the admission offices side. And this is what a good friend was told by the Admission head at Duke three years ago. His son was a high achiever at Duke but his daughter was rejected.....Top grades, volunteer work, extracurriculars and team sports. Just not a star in any.

Anyway, the guy said that every year they get their 18k to 20k applications. From that there are certain things that must be done, and certain things that get the attention of his team. They need to replace all the seniors who make things function. By that he meant sports teams, theater groups, band members, choirs, etc. etc.. This is hundreds of kids, and yes they need to meet academic standards, but if they are elite in their respective discipline then those standards may be lessened.

Then there is the legacy pool. All schools will look at legacies with a slightly different prism. Legacies with a history of financial giving will also be acknowledged, no shock there. Most children of graduates from elite school understand this is a help and will naturally apply to their parents Alma Maters.

The next bucket the dean from Duke mentioned is the VIP kids. These are the sons and daughters of influential folks. For example, kids of senators, CEOs, high profile people (not TMZ people)......you understand. This group might also include kids of foreign officials.

Then throw in the age old desire for these schools to have diversity. They want all 50 states recognized, they want a certain percentage of foreign students.
They want a diversity of ethnicities....duh.

Once they get through filling those slots that must be filled, or accepting the kid that they can't reject for "political reasons", they are left with a very contracted number of open seats. Perhaps as few as 50% of the incoming class.

At Duke, in this particular year they made the decision to cull the heard by eliminating anyone who hadn't achieved something at a National Level. Put another way, they wanted kids who had achieved something that garnered them some sort of national recognition or award. All the applicants that didn't fall into the previous buckets had grades that were good enough, all were top 5% of their HS classes. They were all great kids. Heck they were probably extremely well rounded, but unfortunately they weren't great at anything other than schoolwork.

Seems very unfair, until you think like the guy running a school, and you understand that schoolwork isn't the only thing that matters to a colleges success.

I don't believe that. Last year a girl in our high school, a public school in a small neighborhood, made it into 4 Ivy League colleges with academics only. Look at the kid from elmont who got into every Ivy League school. Only academics. People want to believe the "you need sports" because they have to make themselves feel better. Maybe your friend didn't get the SAT score he says he did

And why do you think the (admittedly very smart and very accomplished) kid from Elmont get into every school to which he applied? Let's not derail the thread here. You don't seem to understand how the college admissions process works.

The Elmont kid was a highly academic black Nigerian immigrant, who founded a mentoring program that was regionally recognized. It was his ethnicity and his recognized accomplishment that got him into all Ivies, not purely his academics.

Ughh, I think it was 99% Ethnicity. Do you have any idea how many white kids have much better grades and accomplishments and can't get into one Ivy???? The reverse discrimination is down right disgusting at this point.

As a Duke grad, I had hoped that Duke's "VIP" preferences were a thing of the past, back when they were trying to build an endowment. I would hope that a legacy (and I'd include a sibling in this regard) would be able to get in if they were above the median for academic benchmarks and well-rounded, but what you say is consistent with all the blather about wanting "pointy" students and a "well-rounded student body".

Anyway, back to ER but staying with Duke, what's a bummer is that Duke can only put their thumb on the admissions scale for 7-8 students a year and they fill those spots up before a kid even plays his sophomore season of lacrosse. So if a kid hits his growth spurt at age 15 (which is pretty normal) versus 13-14 (or being a holdback), he might be a stud varsity player and have median or better academics and still have almost no chance to get into his dream school. Well, at least his parents don't have to try to afford $60K a year tuition . . .

His race is certainly why he got into all those schools; in this particular case, however, he seems very deserving.

First LI Female 8th grader committed to BC yesterday.

So the 2020 girls are beating the boys now by 2 to 1 in the class ER if you keeping score at home.

The good news is that if you daughter finishes her freshman year with no offers, she can quickly switch focus to volleyball or field hockey for the D1 opportunity.

so funny how she is already putting BC'24 on her twitter page.. hilarious on some level an eighth grader looking forward to college grad year.. is that weird to anyone else?

I'm waiting for the first '24 / Google Employment '28 Twitter/Instagram page. My 2020 8th grader still hasn't decided which High School he's going to....

LOL. You should see how tough it is for Asians to get in.

No not weird at all. This girl worked her tail off obviously to get this offer. Congrats to her and her family.

I've already discussed it with my daughter, she's almost done with her freshman year and has not gotten any offers yet. She has agreed to just admit that she's not going succeed like all those D1 players and will just settle for D3 and play for MIT instead. It's unfortunate when this realization comes about. I have a feeling that the other parents on the club team will no longer talk to us anymore - I'm not looking forward to the summer travel season.

Well, at least it's not just lacrosse. I see where a Greenwich Ct. 8th grader just committed to Florida State as a QB. Will attend New Canaan HS. And Btw. 8th grader who is 15 years old , 6'1" 170 pounds. (My 8th grader is 13, 5'4 98 lbs) I have to assume before Florida St. would commit, they would have seen him play against similar sized and aged kids?

New Canaan is a bunch of cheaters in lax too bunch of hold back in that area of Ct. but shortly wont that go away. didn't they pass a law about HS sports and ages playing. [lacrosse] go private by jr year so he can still play

Lest not be fooled though, Lax cannot be compared to Football - big money and a business goodluck to this kid

He's actually going private (Brunswick) to public initially. Point taken about the money in college football, but just don't hear about the early recruits much, at least not here in teh northeast.

She used to have a tail? I think you made that up.

My 9 year old is 5'4" 90 pounds. And he is in 3rd grade. You better start stretching your son and feeding him protein drinks.

That's because in football, early recruiting is limited to a handful of exceptional players. The vast majority of players make their final decisions in their senior years.

In lacrosse, you're pretty much out of luck if you're not committed by sophomore year. The system is broken.

Is he the Kyoto University commit for sumo wrestling ?

The game of lacrosse has changed to the point that if a 5'4" 90 pound kid can run and has lacrosse skills he could potentially play. The physical part of the game has been taken out of the game due to player safety and concussions. 25 years ago Spallina could never play his Crush team up a year or two. They would get physically destroyed. I watched opposing teams look at them the wrong way and get penalties. It's only a matter of time before we see a 7th grader verbally commit. It's up to the NCAA to stop this nonsense.

I

It will never happen. The NCAA is a feckless organization. They couldn't care less. As long as they make their money off the basketball tournament, football bowl games and merchandising anything goes. They will never give a program the death penalty again like they did to SMU football back in the 80's, and the colleges know it. They are afraid the colleges will see that they don't need them, so violation enforcement really only comes when the media makes a stink. Read " The System" by Armen Keteyian. It is a great read and shows the nonsense that goes on in college football recruiting and how the NCAA looks the other way. I'm sure basketball is just as bad or worse. If they don't care about the big time sports, they certainly aren't gonna waste time with non-revenue sports like lacrosse.

Any see what Kessenich wrote?
"4 of the 24 McDonalds All American basketball seniors are are undecided. Meanwhile coaches verbal 8th and 9th graders"

I know the bashing will come of Kessenich, but at least he's saying it.

Be careful, unless your wife is 6'2" the growth can really slow or even stop. One of my older son's friends was 5'10" 160 lbs in 7th grade. Was the football star in middle school. He's a soph in College now, still 5'10". Just sayin..

I'm about 6'1 and she is 5'10, so I think he'll be fine. The biggest problem is when he gets aches and growing pains, sometimes it's tough to watch.

Let's see how tough Quint is now Let's see him come out and bash Jimbo Fisher for committing an 8th grader !! He won't and that is why people's le in the lax world think he's a clown. Double standard and are because he's scared ESPN will boot his [lacrosse] off football, he'll be covering rodeo

Give that a rest. Two things for you to chew on. 1. Over the last 30 years some top D1 football programs have offered kids in 8th grade. I grew up in the same town as Todd Marinovich who was offered in 8th grade and Clausen up the road was offered by USC in 8th grade. Saban has done it twice in the last 8 years. Over decades you can look and there might be a dozen or two total instances like that. I don't know why a football prodigy would be offered but do know a D1 football team has 100 guys and there are 300+ D1 programs, so the notoriety of these prodigies getting offered is quite rare. I'm sure this Connecticut kid is an exceptional one for an 8th grader. So was Todd Marinovich and so was Ken Clausen. 2. Quint isn't being critical of a one-off instance every year or so, he is pointing to something not even close to the same. Lacrosse recruiting is almost entirely concentrated on middle school kids and 9th graders. It is a systemic thing and he is absolutely accurate in his analysis.

Quint is not a hypocrite, a wuss or an idiot because you disagree with him. And he has a lot more credibility than some lacrosse dad in the bleachers like me (and probably like many of you). Early recruiting rewards a few families and kids with recognition and some money to help pay for college. Lacrosse is a 12.6 sport over 45 kids these days, so the instances of the full ride can't be too high a count. I don't know that but common sense does suggest it. Early recruiting is also a bad look for the youth game, for the prep game, for the kids who are made to feel worthless if they are not the special ones when they are 14 (and is a very unhealthy ego inflator for a kid who propped as a special one) and it is a horrible look for the universities. As a graduate of Johns Hopkins with a graduate degree I am appalled.

So complain to Petro.

Why bother complaining to Petro? He does his job and apparently can do whatever he wants and the administration is ok with that. As an alum I am not a fan of it is all. I would hope and expect that the admissions people will do their jobs too. 9th graders don't have an academic record worth any reliances. If the grades and scores aren't there and the admissions declines recruits, I won't shed any tears for Petro. This was his choice. His rewards or consequences later depending on how it goes.

They all say they don't want to do it, Petro, Starsia, Tierney, etc. They all still do. Nothing will change. The NCAA will not get involved. Hopefully the 8th grader is a one off, especially for the boys side. Until someone goes deep into the tournament with a team of kids who didn't commit until late, expect more of the 9th grade commits.

The common belief is that the NCAA will do nothing about this

I have a problem. I like donuts. I eat a lot of donuts. There's a donut shop on the way to work and I just can't stop steering in to crush a half dozen in the morning and another half dozen on my way home. My wife sends me out on weekends to get some for the kids and I always get two boxes by the dozen and demolish one of them like a meth addict in the car, then throw away the box. I work out 3 hours a day but I'm still 135 pounds overweight.

I am asking all of YOU to help ME end this thing that is spinning out of control. Other dads see me get excited talking about donuts, and they just can't help themselves either. It has viraled out and now its getting harder and harder to get the Boston Cremes before they are wiped out at all the shops in my county. Just last week I found myself at the Krispy Kreme at 4am after telling my wife I was taking the dog for an early walk waiting for that light to go on. There were four other dads there with their dogs in the backseats too and we all tried to just look down at our smart phones feigning the embarrassment over being seen like this. It's just embarrassing for a grown man to be sitting outside a Krispy Kreme at 4am waiting for Boston Cremes, but the thing to understand is getting Krispy Kremes is a competitive thing now. Not getting those Boston Kremes is a risk. And they are delicious.

Last night I took the taking the dog for a walk thing all the way in to 2:45am. I was in the clear waiting alone at another Krispy Kreme 7 exits up the I-270 waiting for the light. The police came and asked a few questions. They'd gotten a call about the profile of a dealer in a empty lot on a Friday night. Fairly quickly the situation was diffused when they saw I was a white, bald 350 pound middle age man wearing pajamas with a golden lab named Leroy in the back seat. This is Maryland, and trust me, it's good to be white and bald with a golden lab named Leroy.

This was a night of reckoning. I can't help myself. I do like to talk about helping myself. I like to do tha a lot, and so do the other local donut addicts who joined this early donut hunting war with me. I decided to put the responsibility on you. I mean 'you' as in everyone else but me. I have a petition to ban donuts to send to the FDA. I've also decided to start a GoFundMe page to raise money to build early donut procurement awareness. This isn't really just my problem. It's your problem too. And it's all your fault too. So sign my petition and support the GoFundMe website. I promise I won't continue or use any of those GoFundMe proceeds to buy donuts. Aside from that, there is little I can do about pre-dawn donut runs. I mean, everyone else is doing it. People just don't understand how good donuts are as what is at stake here.

If you go even earlier, you can get the day old donuts at half price. Just a thought

UNC, UVA, Hopkins, Duke. The ACC should get 4 NCAA bids, meaning only one of the list misses, but Hopkins with 6,7 or 8 losses this year and no B1G conference tournament win possible. Three years ago if you looked at where these programs are past the middle of a season and you saw this it would be unthinkable. This is like the housing bubble. The inventory of kids who committed as rising sophs are moving through the college system now. In a couple of years the inventory of 9th and then rising 9th graders starts to move through. Just incredible how the lacrosse public isn't seeing this disaster even though it is happening before our eyes.

Wow, you must be really bored or clinically insanse

Gets quite boring in his parent's basement.

Agree somewhat, but then how do you explain Georgetown? They are typically a late recruiter and they are 1-9 this season and they havent been relevant in years. I think when all is said and done the usual suspects will be there come final four weekend. HOP was in the final four last year and Duke has piled up final fours and National Championships. UVA last won in 2012, but I think the game has passed Starsia by a little bit. UNC is a train wreck and I find it amazing that Breschi still has a job. Early recruiting is a factor im sure to a degree but there are other forces at work as well.

When was Georgetown a major program? I think that when you have it all resources and prestige wise to recruit and the results are this poor you do have to look at both recruiting and player development as factors. Duke is highly successful as a program having a bad year. UNC, UVA and Hop there isn't a doubt all have underperformed in the past few years. Hop's late season surge last year bailed them out of missing the NCAA tournament, but due credit they did while also overcoming quite a horrible year off the field. I think if you look at UNC, UVA and Hop over the recent years it is impossible to objectively state they have not slipped. Some is just parity but some is also just these programs not monetizing their great advantages to recruit whomever they want.

Princeton: disaster
Dartmouth: disaster
Georgetown: disaster
Drexel: not relevant
Marist: not relevant
Siena: not relevant
Rutgers: not relevant

All of these schools tend to recruit late and this is just a partial list, the MID to bottom half of D1 all recruit late.

Ask Hopkins if Rutgers is relevant

Princeton is not a disaster. They are not having a good season, but hardly a disaster. Dartmouth and Georgetown have always been weak programs. Drexel - fair point. Marist, Siena and the like aren't middle tier they are the throw ins at the end. Ivies can't go as early as some, but they don't recruit late either. I also noticed you didn't pick on Yale, Brown, Harvard as disasters because they aren't.

The only programs that have gone full early in recent years are UNC, UVA, Hop and MD. Of those 4 you could only argue MD has been a top NCAA program in the past 5 years.

They recruit late because no 9th or 10th grade superstar is going to commit to them early. You think they are late recruiters by choice? Stop it with your child like logic. They are lower tier schools that will wait till later in the process because the top 100 kids are off the board before they blink. They are going to take a flyer on the #200 ranked 10th grader? So dumb.

Princeton has done almost nothing since Tierney left. They were able to get top recruits early on due to reputation and the fact they are an Ivy League School. All the other teams you mentioned have never been historically relevant. Dartmouth never a factor. Georgetown only a few years in. Drexel, Marist, Siena, and Rutgers. How in the world do you even mention them. They have never been relevant. Rutgers will eventually become more relevant due to being part of the Big 10. The other factor is coaching. You can have the best players but if coaching stinks so will the record.

Now lets take a look at Hopkins, Duke, Virginia, North Carolina, and Syracuse. They have always been powerhouse programs where youth players dream of playing. They will always get players due to their history. Yet they are not doing as well as they normally do. These schools also tend to sign players earlier than others. Please do not deny this, especially this year. This year every class at these schools has multiple early 9th and 10th grade commits playing. I don't think many of these early commits are panning out as the coaches hoped they would.

Look at Brown and Yale they recruit later in the cycle and they are doing just fine. Even Loyola, Villanova, Lehigh, and Bucknell are doing well winning some big games. These schools tend to recruit late and don't have the student body size of the big programs.

Yeah , getting a college diploma from Princeton , what a disaster. So much better with a degree from Syracuse

Brown recently (a couple of months ago) comitted a 2019 pole from long Island, early recruiting is a case by case basis and like anything else is not one size fits all. There are always exceptions.

Princeton and Georgetown are lower tier schools? Im sure if either Princeton or Georgetown wanted to get into the early recruiting game there will be plenty of kids lining up to play and go to school there. The Drexel, Marist, Rutgers, and Siena coaches have gone on record in the past as stating they will not recruit early and they dont beliebe in it. Whats dumb is you talking about a #200 ranked 10th grader. It doesnt work that way, and the only people that pay attention to those nonsense rankings are ego maniacal parents like yourself.

Drexel, Marist, Siena, Rutgers were all mentioned because all of their coaches have been pretty outspoken about early recruiting and as programs they have a policy about recruiting early. They all have in recent years made tournament appearances with the exception of Rutgers.

As for Princeton were talking about lacrosse here not academics, lacrosse wise they are a disaster

What an idiot. Please don't ever try and say Princeton is a disaster in anything. A degree from there and you move to the top of every resume pile in the country lacrosse or not. You dadies need to realize that lacrosse ends but a degree from a top 10 school lasts forever. Syracuse isn't even in the same zip code allowing C+ students in these days as long as you pay the $60k tuition

Do you have ADHD?? This is a lacrosse forum. You want to talk employment opportunities find another board. Back of the Boardroom is a great site. Check it out. LOL Some people are here either to just argue, try and act smart, or both. Give it a rest.

For the person who doesn't understand that this is a lacrosse board. We are talking lacrosse not academics.

Ok I got it. Do you understand where I was coming from on my post regarding the teams I mentioned and why.

Do coaches still look at and/or contact athletes after they give verbals?

I do understand your points and agree that I am sure there are early verbals on some of those squads that are not working out as planned. I think that the jury is still out about early recruiting and its impact on the present day game. Every team in the final four last year are notorious early recruiters and late poachers as well. I think in the case of UNC and UVA they definitely have coaching issues. In the cases of Brown and Yale, dont kid yourself, they recruit plenty early, they just arent as public about it because of their admissions process. All of the other schools you mention have multiple 2018 verbals which would be considered "early" as compared to the historical way of recruiting in which kids werent locked up until their JR and SR years. Thank you for the civilized and coherent discussion though, its a rarity on this board.

Yes

So safe to say, YOU didnt attend Princeton as your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. We all get it Princeton is a phenomenal academic institution that any kid would be lucky to be able to attend, but as a lacrosse program they have been struggling. Given their rich lacrosse history the current state of affairs can accurately be described as a disaster. Im sure the very proud alumni base there is not happy whatsoever at whats going on with that program.

They only had a "rich" history with Tierney. He's gone, along with their hopes for ever achieving anything. SAD!

Thank you. I try my best. Love this game and all it has to offer the players that play it and those who have played. So people know I became a moderator and involved with this site after myself and my son were attacked on here a number of years ago. This was allowed by a previous moderator who is no longer involved with back of the cage. I always try and protect the kids and do my best to initiate quality topics of discussion.

The Ivys always sign a bit later yes due to the requirements and the admissions process. Yet it seems they are also signing the right players. Remember due to the rigorous requirements they have a much smaller pool to choose from. This makes it that much harder for the Ivy schools. Not all students can meet the GPA, SAT, or ACT score required to attend these schools.

I just feel that too much early recruiting is destroying the game at its foundation, the PAL and Youth levels. Every game is the National Championship. So much pressure is being put on theses kids by over zealous parents and coaches. Its taking the fun out of it for the kids. The club ball is also a nightmare. Its just diluting the caliber of play with all theses clubs out there. We are rating teams as AA, A, B so people don't get their feelings hurt. What happened to town and travel? What happened to the letters A,B, and C. This AA crap is just that, crap. I also think its making it hard for the coaches with parents overstepping their bounds on all levels club and town. With this his win at all cost mentality yet everyone gets a trophy generation there are so many mixed signals being sent out. I think the signing of a 8th grader is crazy. Now this kid has all this pressure on them to perform, also a target on his back. All the while trying just to grow up and be a kid. I am sure his parents have taken this into consideration and its an amazing accomplishment. I just think this type of accomplishment should be reserved for a select few and not the masses like it has become now.

I love how some of you know who the top 100 kids in the nation are...if you look at Ty's picks from years ago you see that he had some right I. His rating for top 25 but he certainly missed on a bunch which is to be expected since he does not know all the kids or the diamond in the rough because they don't play on these top teams. Point is don't worry if your kid has not decided yet. If he is good the schools will come to him trust me. My son was one of those kids that Ty had no clue about and was an all American . His job is to try and create interest which he does. Almost like a Perez Hilton type

exactly

New Cannan Ct 8th grader has received 2 offers to play Division 1 football. 1 to Florida State and 1 to Southern Alabama. like it or not its being done. This particular football player happens to be a 15 year old 8th grader, unlike the 13 year old 8th grade laxer. Early recruiting in any sport is not a one size fits all and rather than discount it all together it should be done on a case by case basis.

Finally someone telling it like it is

Ty gets all bent out of shape when the early recruiting issue is under fire. Think about it, the guy would be out of a job if it was taken away, so his agenda is his agenda. Push the hype push the early interest in prepubescent boys, gives him more credibility, and more networking to make $$$$ . Which IMO in the end is what it is all about.

Princeton situation: how does this impact the peace of mind for a 2017, 2018, 2019 commit kid? New coach could = do over. I have been thinking this as a downside risk for a couple years. How does this go?

New coach could conceivably come in and void all verbal agreements. Dartmouth coach I believe did that when he came in. Unless your NLI is signed nothing is binding. Doesnt seem that coach is very well liked, not sure he survives much longer.

Very, very negatively. They should be worried, especially since Princeton's relationship with the admissions office has been pretty iffy for the last ten years or so.

His fate might be sealed since coach threw an elbow at a Brown player as he was running off the field and was caught on video. Doesn't look good.

No NLIs at Ivys.

this is 100% true. It occurred at the 1:11 point of the game after the face off. Don't know which Coach it was but he definitely threw an elbow to the players chest.

people getting upset with Ty 'cause little Johnny isn't getting any love. WA WA WA , the insecurity that is so evident in people would kind of funny if it wasn't so sad, If TY mentioned your kid he would be the lax recruiting GURU...lol

You're kidding, right? I'm from MD and should enjoy the home cooking. I have a 2016 son who will play college next year. Ty falls all over himself to pump the tires of kids at our son's IAC school. I find it offensive when he does because I see the bargaining and prodding that goes on. I don't think people get jealous just because their little Johnny isn't getting noticed. What is offensive is kids who can't play do get recognized out of some allegiances to club and prep people. And once a kid commits, it's fawn all over the kid time. Frankly, I've never seen anything so devoid of substance in my life. Which is really saying something considering I'm a venture capitalist who listens to bad ideas 99% of the time in my life.

Xanders gets paid to write up certain kids. I know this to be fact. So, its hard to take anything he writes as serious analysis.

lol "I know this to be fact" you're an idiot

This is taking up more than Ty's 15 mins of fame. He's a lacrosse blogger folks. Of course the club and prep guys will do anything and everything to get some kids pumped. Pounds of salt. Pounds of salt. The season starts so late in New England versus in the mid-Atlantic. Right now most of the IAC and WCAC teams have played more than half their games and the likes of the LI teams Darien and New Canaan have only started. What's next, do CT teams need to start their season in February so that the national rankings don't leave them behind before April 1st? Maybe even that wouldn't matter since the bloggers aren't going to be sitting and watching games in NE 6 weeks a year. The Baltimore and DC teams aren't better, they're just better covered and hyped.

No not at all worried about my son, admitted already Dec. 15th, scored big merit $$, to the tune of 6k grand less than a SUNY at a top 10 university. Im just calling it as I see it. Four kids 2 oldest played college ball, younger two opting to club ball, so could really not care one bit what Ty does say or write. However, I will state, no other reason he fanboys over prepubescent boys is to further his own agenda.

How does Ty make money? I'm sorry these clubs must pay him to show up to certain tournaments.

Ya' think?

Ok so if youre so smart, how exactly does this guy make money? Is he independently wealthy and has just decided to spend his days mancrushing on teenage boys? If he isnt getting paid by the clubs, where is the income coming from? Why does he tend to cover certain clubs and schools more than others? Nobody is taking anything away from the kids he writes about, Im sure they are all deserving, but for anyone to take anything he says seriously is laughable.

He takes payment in the form of Chipotle, gas money or baseball hats

Who says he's wealthy?

I am Elmer J Fudd Venture Capitalist, I own a mansion and a yacht and my son plays lax...sure, whatever you say.

Hey. Knock it off. I invented fuddgy the whale. So there

HAHAHA... THATS OUTSTANDING...WHAT A WINDBAG THAT POSTER IS.

If that was Elmer J he would have said lawcwosse, not lax, so I don't believe it!

Anyone involved is obviously paid

Its a sarcastic supposition based on the premise that if he isnt being paid by the clubs to write up kids then hes obviously got his own money and doesnt need to get paid...... try and keep up I know its difficult with no pictures

If you look at all the events he covers through his travels he writes up the same clubs but different kids each time. So everyone gets a shot. Great marketing.

Did someone say "sarcastic supposition"... wow it is getting serious in here now.

Here we have it, the first extreme ER era firing of a coach who is sitting on a three year stack of kids committed. Good luck to all the Princeton commits and families. Time to hope the new coach will share the prior guys's affections. I think this is one of many watershed shakeouts to come in the next year.

Bates was not very well liked by the alums and was reported to be constantly at odds with the school administration as well. He gave them a gift wrapped excuse to get rid of him. The press release said they will do a nationwide search for a new head coach at seasons end. Will be very interesting to see if they honor their verbals. Since the Ivies dont do NLI's even the 2016's arent safe. Fascinated to see what happens there.

The 2016s are tuition deposited by now. What kid is going to duck away from a Princeton education? I think the 2017s and 2018s are burned. They will need to re-audition. The perils of this early process is this consequence. It is almost never the case there is a coaching change without abysmal performance in the program. Same coach with the abysmal record has recruits lined up? Release them. Princeton can poach away.

I agree to a point- but I think releasing the committed players shows that Princeton is not true to their word. I would not encourage my kid to commit to a school that seems less honorable than others. On the other hand, it could be great for all those hard working students with the grades in the book, as it is hard to build up grades to get in as a junior and senior and if they do try to poach and find new kids, then the kids that excel in the classroom would have a big advantage. In either case, I hope that the new coach honors the verbals and stands by their word.

Princeton committed to the kids? Ummm, no. Coach Bates made verbal arrangements with kids to sponsor their applications with the admissions office in September of their senior year. A coach gets a certain number of applications he may sponsor to admissions and submit them. Then admissions decides.

If you believe there is a bargain beyond that, you're mistaken. Princeton has no bargain with any of the kids. The AD has no bargain with any of the kids. At their discretion coaches can wildcat and 'verbally commit kids' to their program early, but there's nothing formal or implied as binding to it. Bates could have verbally arranged with 25 kids from juniors down to freshmen and that has nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with the buy in or interest of the university or it's admissions office.

Your wrong every coach has what they call slots. Able to get a lacrosse player in that would not be able without lacrosse.

But probably not as many slots as he has the number of kids he has told verbally " with your grades, and with our support, I don't see any reason your acceptance won't be a problem. But I can't emphasize enough that you'll really need to keep your grades up and get the numbers you've been scoring on practice ACTs when it is an official test. I'm looking forward to having you at Princeton, now go work on those grades".

And even the kid who was going to take one of the "slots" still needs the coach to make the case......the new coach may not work as hard as he should trying to sway admissions that the kid can cut the grade if admitted.

My guess is the HS 2016s are fine, all other agreements are open to revision.

Ivy League Schools do nto have "Slots". Ivy League Schools work off of an AI (academic index). There is a minimum score that must be attained by any one student athlete and there is an average that must be met for the incoming class. If you are not one of their top recruits than you better have a score will above the required average.

Better to be a marginal player with great scores. That helps the coach big time in balancing the roster. At non ivies all the kids on 50 player rosters that are ranked 35-50 help the team GPA, notthe team on the field

You're not informed. The coach has slots. The coach can use those slots to sponsor 7-9 candidates a year. If those candidates meet the (very high) standards, they are in. It has the effect of taking kids academically in the strata to be admitted without help, and pulls them out of the lottery of thousands of near perfect applicants competing for few spots.

If a candidate is a lacrosse player, and that lacrosse player would not be a viable candidate for admission without lacrosse -- that player gets declined by admissions. Princeton admissions has declined more than a few committed kids from the Bates era. There are some programs that have latitude. Cornell has latitude. Tierney used to have latitude at Princeton and left when he didn't anymore. Bates didn't have latitude, and where he did it was not very material. We're talking about getting a kid with a 3.7 GPA and a lower AI over a hump when it gets pushed hard. We're not talking about a A/B student with nothing but lacrosse on a college application.

True true... Ivy league schools work on an "Academic Index" which means that any given applicant has to meet the standards of the institution which can be daunting. What sports does is bring that paperwork to the top of the pile. As the previous poster mentioned there may be 5,000 applications for a college like Princeton or Yale or name your IVY. More get rejected then processed, a coach of an IVY league school puts that kids application at the top of the pile. So if the child makes the academic standards then they will get accepted before thousands of other applications are even looked at. Also teams have to keep an mean score (this is true of most D1 programs but is more rigorous in an IVY league school), so some kids are accepted onto a team to bring up the team average even thought they don't have a chance of breaking a lineup. Finally for an IVY league school since there isn't a "scholarship" everyone is accepted academically once admitted the programs have little control over the kids (unlike a scholarship situation where kids are owned by the coach lock stock and barrel). Trade offs on both sides but for kids who are not going to make a career out of the sport that they are getting accepted for, IVY leagues make most sense.

so UVA is a failure, Hop too on their ER gambit. Any ER successes?

What do you consider ER? Denver has 6 2019 committed and 13 2018. Duke has 9 2018s. No 2019 but heard they try to keep it on the down low. Even Loyola has 6 2018. Notre Dame has 7 2018s. Syracuse has 15 2018. Then add notorious ERs UVA and MD and you have every school that has played in the final since 2010. The only other school to play in final 4 during that time not mentioned is Cornell - which has 6 2018 commits. UVA and JHU deserve criticism for early recruiting but there's more in play

sort of to tell on women's side, but if the men's is an indication it doesn't appear like the most aggressive have gotten any particular advantage.

You can all say what you want but Princeton will honor 90 percent of the previous coaches verbals , you may have a few kids use it as an excuse to opt out . My son plays at a Princeton and when he went thru the recruiting process the AD was slightly involved but was made aware at the end of each parties "commitment" and I was told that the school would honor the agreement weather that particular coach was there or not . Yes there are some academic mile stones that your kid needs to meet but they are significantly lower than the average Princeton student and quite honestly if you struggle to meet those standards you do not belong there.

It's Princeton people. Take the education and move on. It's an IVY LEAGUE degree and oh by the way a varsity sport add on for good measure. You go to the top of every resume pile. You 100% lacrosse people are NUTS! Play for satan if that's what it takes to set you up for the rest of your life

The academic standards are high and they should be non negotiable. I believe the number will be far less than 90%. Coaches have the latitude to administer their programs within constraints. Follow rules, graduate players, win. If the new coach doesn't see the upside or quality he wants in the Princeton commits or is unsure, especially the ones down the ladder in 2018, 2019, he likely will and should release them. There is no commitment from Princeton here. Not the AD and certainly not the admissions office. It is a verbal arrangement between a coach and a family. Of course every kid with a chance to attend Princeton should jump at it. But I think you're overstating the depth of the commitment other principals at Princeton have here. If your son was recruited by Bates, I'd be more than a little worried now.

Lots of Talk about Princeton. Who is the new coach? Anybody heard any 3rd had rumor

I think they named an assit. as acting head coach. They will probably wait until NCAA tournament is done to interview top assistants from a top 15 team or a head coach from a rising program. They may just keep the acting guy.

DeLuca will be

"I think they named an assit. as acting head coach. They will probably wait until NCAA tournament is done to interview top assistants from a top 15 team or a head coach from a rising program. They may just keep the acting guy."

Thanks, that clarified things...

I'd expect several more firings and job openings. My question is who are all the new qualified coaches to take these jobs? The assistants who have been the early recruiting bozos? Club guys who have been throwing out lousy / unsightly fundamentals club ball for college placement services? I'm getting really concerned that the college sport will be dominated by only a small few programs run by guys who are actually great coaches, then a huge garbage pile after that.

I've been around this sport for almost all of my 53 years and this was the first year where I went to D3 games and saw teams that could compete with or bear D1 teams. Many of coaches are obviously unable to develop talent. I question now whether or not Starsia and Petro ever did know how or if they just appeared smarter years ago when they could out talent other programs and roll a ball out. These programs are obviously recruiting poorly too. One of the things that struck me watching UVA this year was their body language leaving the field after a game. 45 individuals. And talent wise more than 30 of them didn't belong in that uniform anyways. Hopkins is now a program ever 5-6 kids quit every fall. What kid spends his whole youth chasing this and quits at the end of fall ball? Hopkins has some serious character issues in their program. Petro is a great guy but don't sell me that he recruits well and coaches to the talent. He's gotten a few more stars like the Stanwicks and Tinney,, but then again Starsia has been about as lucky there too over the last several years. It's getting to a point where I don't see how a kid dreams of being a Hoo or a Blue Jay anymore.

Wow, really? Do yourself a favor, go to a high school recruiting tournament this summer and stand in the parking lot and take a poll of the kids coming out. I guarantee you 99 out of 100 of them would trade one of their siblings for a shot to play at either UVA or Hopkins. Yes their programs might be down, but they are both historic programs and excellent academic institutions. Hopkins has a tendency to over recruit which explains why kids will quit or transfer but dont fool yourself, its still Hopkins and kids would kill for a shot to play there. UVA is a disaster right now and I firmly believe they need a coaching change. However, to say that kids dont wanna go there is silly, its still UVA.

this was the first year where I went to D3 games and saw teams that could compete with or bear D1 teams. [/quote]

Top 10 D3 could beat anyone below top 20 D1, definitely hang with 10-20 D1, and probably lose to by 5-7 to top 10 D1. Top level D3 is really really good lacrosse - the coaches can actually coach - not rely on spoiled kids that peaked in 9th grade and were only better than everyone else because they matured first...

I do go to these things with my youngest. Of course all the 14 year olds want to go to the school with the cred, the cool uniforms and play on ESPN. And sure they'd sell a sibling. Their parents would likely sell a kin as well for a sexy commit announcement. I think you are missing the part where 14 year olds become college students later, arrive at these programs and barely hang on for fall ball because the coaches are over recruiting to compensate for the fact that the way they recruit is a disaster. Kids who have these values because they are taught them...look how that turns out. Every UVA and Hop player learned only how to hog it for an individual highlight, didn't care about winning club tournaments and cared more about walking around as a college commit over being a high school player. Hopkins and UVA are the two worst coached, underachieving and culturally cancerous programs in the sport now. Sure they are great schools. I have a degree from one of them. But neither school is a good fit for a lax bro who just wants to stay eligible for four years and play ball. Pretty soon the cool destinations can be Ohio State and Penn State if Hopkins and UVA can stay off TV in games that count in May. If I were the AD at either Hop or UVA, I'd fire both coaches tomorrow morning. Let them sit on the other side of the field at middle school club tournaments coaching some club team.

First, I'd like to say the UVA just looks and feels like a college should and all they need to do is get a kid on Campus with his parents and I suspect they sign up (and no, I did not attend but have been there enough). Hopkins? (lovely Baltimore)? Not so much, so Petro has a tougher sell than many others. Going forward, it is going to be even tougher for him, you can bet on that.

But don't bet against seeing the Hop Memorial Day weekend. They are not good enough this year, but stranger things have happened.

Baltimore, the city, might not be as picturesque as UVA, but a degree from Hopkins is prestigious. Some people actually care about the degree, you know?

If you can get into Hopkins, then you probably have lots of choices. Is it a prestigious, of course, but we are talking about elite lax players who are ER, are we not? And Baltimore is a handicap.

Hey now. There might be some significant social issues, but Baltimore is a cool city -- rich in history, art, and music. Get beyond the superficial and dig a little. It's a quirky town. An artsy, foodie, cool place. Don't diss my hometown, man! Lots of great people in Baltimore.

problem with the hop is you only have lax. Add to that the fact (like most kids do at others) you hang with lax players all the time 24-7. Not much else there. Slim choices with the ladies as well. Go to a UVA football game and enjoy the sun and scenery. The sun dresses are hard to look away from. Basketball team is hot right now as well and as a Varsity athlete you get free admission to all. Nice perk

Well, the mayor is a moron, the county attorney is a moron and WHEN, not if, the next riot strikes, Baltimore is going to look a lot like Ferguson Missouri. But Hopkins is a GREAT school with a historically great lacrosse program. One I feel will recover nicely. Remember ND won a football NC in 1988, then struggled for years before Chip Kelly came along. Same with Bama, now Miami struggling to compete in football. Cyclical, they'll be back.

You people are all out of your mind if you think Hopkins or UVA have any trouble getting the recruits they wants. Both of them can draw from the hotbeds as well as out west and Canada. If Petro calls you and your a high school soph or Jr, youre saying no? Not a shot in [lacrosse]. As for Baltimore, yes there are some pretty shady spots but they also have Inner Harbor, Fells Point, Federal Hill, etc. Not sure if you noticed but NYC has some really shady spots as well and last time I looked Hofstra wasnt in the greatest neighborhood either. In regards to UVA, your talking about a beautiful campus, a great academic institution, a pretty sizable and powerful alumni and a storied lacrosse program. So who wouldnt go there and why???? If your talking about deciding between and IVY and UVA you have an argument, otherwise its a no brainer.

Homewood Field is a dump and so is the JHU campus. I get UVA.

I think you've gotten off track a bit. The discussion is about ER, not about whether or not a 16 year old, two or three time ninth grader will accept an offer. Clearly, the reason these two schools are in the predicament they are, is precisely because they are making offers to 16 yo ninth graders that are accepting those offers. They are not getting the best kids... That is why they can't win. 10 years ago Hop would have beat Rutgers with their 3rd lines. 16 year olds playing against 14 year olds in tournament look like superstars. When the arrive on campus at age 20 they now have to play up. Most will not be able to do it. Remember, if they really were that good, they would have been playing up at 16, not 2 years down. The biggest offenders are all suffering the same fate. UVA, Hop, UNC. Its only going to get worse for them, they have recruited the same type of players in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019. It's great for the other programs, and great for D3. Parity is here to stay, and it will only continue.

I disagree with you. ER may be playing a role but it is definitely not the whole story. In the cases of UNC and UVA, both of their rosters are loaded with talent and athletes, so to me it is a coaching problem not a recruiting problem. Breschi missed his chance last year when he had that all world attack. Starsia looks lost and disinterested and I think its filtering down to his players, definitely time for a change at UVA. As for Hop, they did make the final four last year and they had some big wins this season and it remains to be seen what they do in this tourney, they have a tough 1st round matchup with Brown. You did hit the nail on the head with parity, the talent is much more spread out and more athletes are playing the sport which is why your seeing some of the upsets youre seeing. I think parity and good coaching is more on the money than ER.

If Bill Tierney was the coach at UVA, they would be in the top five. UVA's play has nothing to do with ER or lack of player talent. Hopkins lost two first line mids for the season and still are in the tourney. UNC is in the tourney. These programs are fine and full of great athletes. Not d3 players as hater dad states.

The guy bashing programs and players is only doing it because his son didn't get recruited. Dude, get over it. Hop, UVA and UNC will always be highly respected and desirable places to play. Everyone would go to these three schools in a heartbeat.

There is more talent than ever, and ER has yet to take effect good or bad. Parity is simply more good D1 players and more good D1 coaches getting the most out of their players. This is all a good thing.

And they have great riots! Amazing police and great political leaders.

Seriously, Baltimore might be great under the surface, but I think that my 18 year old from the suburbs might find a bunch of lacrosse powers more appealing. Petro is handicapped by the surroundings. So is Yale, if that makes you happy.

Except for bringing Hofstra into this, your pretty spot on and the NYC comparison it too broad and we are surely not talking Wagner or Manhattan. But if you are a lax ER then you have a choice and Hop is lucky they have the aura to overcome the location.

If Petro called - I'd still look elsewhere. Hopkins location, facilities, campus, etc. is a major issue. They are not the only game in town anymore. Sorry - old news.

Again, sorry but if youre in any way insinuating that someone actually might think twice about going to Yale because of its location you are absolutely out of your mind. It could be on the surface of the moon and people would gouge each others eyes out to have the opportunity to go there. As for Hop and being in a shady neighborhood, let me ask you, do you think Duke has a problem recruiting? Have you ever seen the area surrounding Duke? Not desirable by any stretch. How about UPenn? There are many schools that are situated in bad neighborhoods, but I really dont think its that big of a factor when kids are deciding where to go to school

Congrats, your kid must be something pretty special then. Not many kids have the option of turning down one of the premier academic and lacrosse institutions in the country. Ive been to Hop more than a few times, the facilities and the campus are just fine. I agree the surrounding area is an issue but nothing that would stop me from sending my kid there if he had the chance.

Hopkins in the 80's and early 90's was it. Now even though they are still great, there are a ton more choices and many of them are very attractive. Schools have evolved. NO knock on the Hop

Virginia AD pretty much indicated the end for Starsia today. If your son is a UVA early commit you'd better hope the new guy loves you in the morning.

Although I agree he has to go, I have a hard time believing they will kick him out on his rear. The man has had a great deal of success there and has done wonders for the program. It is time for a change but hopefully they do it the right way.

But these kids are the best of the best at the time they are getting recruited, THEY HAVE A CHOICE! New Haven to Cambridge, Baltimore to Charlottesville and so many in between. You can not look at this as if it is the choice between Binghampton and Yale as a lax player. Kids the ER for lax are not deciding a Government major at Harvard vs a pre-med at Yale or Hopkins.

Bottom line is Petro is handicapped by his surroundings, it can not be denied. At UVA, there is no handicap and I would look towards the coaching. Frankly that place is a bonus for the coach, he is the problem there.

Early or late recruit
The entire idea of athletics for the over whelming majority is help the get to a school that may have not been able to attend without given sport
A degree from many of the schools listed above will aid them tremendously in the rest of the lives not just the 4-5 yrs they spend at the school
And as far as ER what you think you may want at 15
Many times is completely different from what you want as a 18 yr old senior
Good day all

As a former UVA student athlete, here is what I wonder about...George Hugely was a bum and a violent drunk for 4 years in that program. The twins, same thing. Nothing but trouble and more trouble. Back in the day in my team and other teams at UVA the teams and guys took care of each other and their team. If there was a cancer on the team the team members and captains would make sure the coaches knew. Nobody wants it. Starsia knew Huguely and the twins were bad seeds the whole way and he did nothing.

I don't want to hear it that he won this many games and championships. None of that matters when you don't do things the right way and you look away when you have kids committing crimes on your team. 2010 wasn't an isolated incident. It was by far the worst and most horrible think imagined, but it was also the outcome of a pattern which was tolerated for years and was a part of the UVA lacrosse culture for decades. Don't late the door hit you on the [lacrosse] on your way out, coach.

That's a powerful post. And makes me think a little bit about how he decries ER and then offers a rising 9th grader in early July.

It will be VERY interesting to see whether the new UVA coach is an ER guy or not. As someone whose kid would be in-state, I hope not.

UVA -- that summary is 100% spot on. The program has had a bad internal reputation for many years. The tired old beer guzzling bro culture goes back to the Ace Adams years. The University and this program would be best served if there is a change and a complete overhaul. Based on Littlepage's comments it looks like change is a given now.

Kills me to write this, but Frank Beamer at VaTech always said the first pillar of any great college program is recruiting the state. Your program is always better when you respect that fact that if there are in-state kids you could recruit, you want to always keep a wicked bias toward them. Those are the kids who grew up rooting for the Hoos and would appreciate wearing the jersey and give more of themselves. My UVA teams in another sport always had a few walk-ons from the Quantico base. O'Connor is the baseball coach and he believes in this too. Tough and straight military brats who were tough s.o.b.'s. I went to a UVA lacrosse game this spring and that was obviously a group of 45 individuals. That would never happen if you had glue guys, character guys, guys who only want to be a part of UVA success. Blow that sh$t up and start over. Doesn't mean a thing they are loaded with IL ranked recruits and UA All-Americans. That means nothing. Starsia doesn't get it, he always thought he could out talent everybody with LI and Baltimore kids and look at them now. Next guy needs to be someone who cares about the state. Can't be any other way.

I guess that is why ND is always going to be special, everyone if from there and they have God watching the games.

That's a dumb thing to write. In any sport if you have talent in your state and can't recruit your state, you will stink. If you have talent in your state and won't recruit it, your dumb and you will stink. I understand that North Carolina high school lacrosse hasn't been huge in the past 10 years, but when there are players good enough to recruit it is a mistake if Breschi ignores the kid. Lots of kids will want to go away for college anyways but everyone notices the validation when the program in the state in the ACC recruits a kid from the state, and more important everyone notices when the program in the state doesn't. Starsia is hated among Virginia high school coaches. They have very long memories and now that Virginia has excellent high school lacrosse talent, the resentment is very high. It's like Pitino saying he wouldn't recruit a Mr. Basketball from Kentucky to UK. He didn't get it. Starsia didn't get it either. If he wants to keep coaching, go coach Hofstra or something like that.

And look how it went for Towson recruiting all those Maryland public school grinders.

Ty Xanders never ranked character, bi&$es.

All Binghamton (no p) needed is a fresh h coach. School is behind Athletics while it prides itself on academics.

2020 2019 keep an eye on this one. School can be seen as a place to be if rumors of an Indoor facility comes to fruition.

Talk about keeping it in state. 15 D1 school
Cause
Albany
Stony Brook
Army
Colgate
Cornell

Hofstra
Marist
Siena
Binghamton
Manhattan

Wagner
St John's
Canisius
Hobart

If you don't have an Indoor facility in NY you put yourself behind the 8ball. Tough to compete with those school with mild Temps.

And so many D2 and D3

Steve Spurrier once said "give me SOBs and I'll beat any group of VIPs"

If you're one of the blue blood programs it's time to toughen up, buttercups.

Who would you consider a "blue blood"?

At least his convicts had a chance at playing in the NFL. Pro lax is a beer league. Worry about churning out a high character kid and sending him to a school that is a good fit because in 4 years its OVER JOHNNY!

Never mind that, when is the ole ball coach coming to college lacrosse? Can't wait to see that. All kidding aside, lacrosse is no longer the sport it was. The tough kid with a linebacker mentality cannot succeed in today's lacrosse climate. The game has become a finesse sport, more like soccer than hockey. Almost all contact is flagged. Give me a bunch of fast kids with amazing stick skills who play as a team and not as individuals and I'll beat anyone as well. Tough sob's? sorry not in todays game.

Well, Yale & Brown had more tough character guys than the lax bro schools. I think you're trying to make a correlation which isn't there. Mentally tough is something many college lacrosse coaches seem unable to identify or evaluate.

We're at a point now where each guy on this year's Hopkins and UVA squads should be doing individual highlight videos to an AC/DC song to post on YouTube. It would be pretty sad, but also appropriate.

Agree that they are flagging almost all contact now but disagree about the tough SOB's. Yesterday's Towson Denver game proved it. Denver has fast kids with amazing stick skills. Towson has tough, grinding SOB's. Toughness isn't only about hitting. Towson played tenacious defense and battled their asses off for every ground ball. [lacrosse], I think they only won 2 faceoffs all day. That's my definition of toughness and Towson showed it.

Steve Spurrier was talking about players who could knock the snot out of someone. Therefore I assume the poster was referring to that. Don't think the original poster was referring to picking up ground balls, but I could be wrong.

Agreed. Also the number of talented kids, and the type of athlete that now plays the game, seems to have the greatest impact on parity.

All quiet on the early recruiting front...UNC and Marryland in final four and they are the earliest of the early...even Brown publically taking 9th graders...

then that must make it ok and validates the early recruiting model, right? Michigan and Ohio State are very early too, no?

Alabama just offered an 8th grader a spot on their football team. This will soon extend to all NCAA sports. Its coming, the coaches are playing for big money jobs. They could care less what a bunch of parents on BOTC think. We can complain, or accept that it's coming. Or, if you are that dead set against it, start a movement to get rid of it. Raise the money, hire the lobbyists, change the rules. But I think it's a very dead issue

Anyone know if the under armour all American underclass team is legit or a money grab?

Ive heard the tryouts are very well attended by college coaches. Not sure about the tournament but it seems to be pretty legit.

8th graders have gotten football offers for years now; that isn't the problem with lacrosse recruiting. That 8th grader (and the majority of football recruits) still won't have to decide/commit until senior year of college.

You don't HAVE to commit/decide early in lacrosse either. That is the choice of the student and the parent. Don't do it if you don't want to commit. Can't blame the coach for wanting to make his program better and keep his high paying job and supporting HIS family. There are things that are unethical in every business, from Wall Street on down/up, why is coaching any different?

So is Virginia...

Early recruiting really does seem to be a phenomenon that benefits no one at all, yet it really has destroyed the youth game all over the country.

isn't this the first year for the underclassmen?

and JHU?

Most of your early commits are doing so because that is what the parent wants. Most kids don't have a clue in 9th grade of where they want to go or would they rather play football or BB in college.Parents will feel less pressure from the other parents on their club team. My son has been approached and we are looking into the process but it's still early for him. I won't let my ego get in the way of my son. What makes a kid from LI pick Ohio State , Michigan or a Denver at this point. They loved the academic side of the school or how it looks in the fall or they like their football team. just crazy but everyone can make their own choice.

For our ER, it was a rather tough decision. I mean, what does a 14 year old 9th grader know if that is what he wants? Surely he wants to play in college. A D1 program was preferable to him. He was pretty advanced academically and displayed a rather independent nature early on so we were apprehensive but not nail biting. I think the thing that pushed us as a family over the edge was how fast the recruiting classes were filling up. Had to kind of sh*t or get off of the pot.

We made a deal with him. Chose the most academically rewarding institution that was interested in him and we would support his decision. True; kids are attracted to the big name schools with vibrant media coverage and larger than life college experiences, yet we were happy our kid decided to pursue the academic route and chose a very coveted spot in a great 8 school. That certainly put more pressure on him to want and need to achieve academically, but if the lax carrot is the key to a great school; then why not let him try and meet those requirements?

So.... ER is a challenge on many levels. If a kid gets sucked into the recruiting vortex; it's a parent's responsibility to help him cull out the best program for him that will enable him to pursue his dreams and become successful in life. Else; take lax out of the equation and let them make their way the old fashioned way on merit and grit. We were fortunate that our ER thus far has not been overwhelmed by the process or his decision.

Sounds good. I hope he gets the coveted likely to admit letter.

Trying to tie wins and losses from this season to ER is a tough sell. Parody is here because of the enhanced level of instruction and competitive exposure that is now available to kids from non-traditional areas due to club. ER has been going on for years, even when it supposedly wasn't. It just wasn't tweeted out every time a 9th or 10th grader verballed. They all do it, even Loyola BTW, despite the fact that their freshman attackman was a late recruit (and lets be real, he went to Boys Latin, so its not exactly a Cinderella story). Even if the NCAA makes wholesale changes, coaches will still find a way around it. So even in that scenario, young recruits will worry about "missing the train". The handful of coaches we spoke to all said they were against it but felt that they had to in order to be in the running for the top recruits. Most schools hold back a few spots as a hedge for late bloomers. But instead of discussing it philosophically, lets consider a real world scenario, put yourself in it:
-your 9th grade son/daughter is being recruited by XYZ University (which btw, your kid would probably not be admitted to without the sport)
-your club or school coach contacts you and gives you a number to call and try to speak to the coach.
-Your kid is very excited but you try to temper him/her by telling them to research the school and also realize that coach probably made a dozen calls after that tournament/event.
-your kid calls, speaks to a coach (eventually) several times and sets up a visit
-Your family visits, interviews, tours - the whole thing and tells you on the way home that he/she loves it. its the right fit (you think) and he loves the coaching staff, size of school, program, etc. He/She may even see the field some day!!!
-the school contacts your coach and says they really liked him/her and asks what your kid thought of their program
-you discuss the responsibilities and pressures of early committing to your kid but ultimately you tell him/her that they have to live with the decision.
-they want to commit (you're worried if its right but after all its X University)
-you set up a call/visit with the coach
-the call/visit happens and that's it - its done he/she is now verbally committed to X University class of 202?
So to all of the noble, sanctimonious posters out there I ask you - how would you have handled it?
a) tell your kid they are too young to make that decision and he/she should wait because you know better as their parent (ok, noble approach, but boy would I love to be a fly on the wall to hear that conversation if they loose the spot)
b) tell the coach "no, we have no idea that you will still be at X 3 years from now"
c) tell your kid that its too much to ask a 14/15 year old to stay strong academically, socially, and ethically for so long a period
d) have a heart to heart about how they are now responsible to something bigger than themselves, and need to maintain their academic and athletic strength and integrity because now its not only their mom and dad they will disappoint if they screw up but also the coach/program that had faith in them. But you support and will continue to support their decision and handle the next few years as a "team" to keep them on the right track (which we should be doing anyway of course)

Lets be real here, most will choose D

And before you respond that this is an example of why ER is bad because it puts kids under too much pressure, go back to my earlier comment. They will recruit early regardless of the "regulations". And its better to be on the inside looking out. How come nobody is complaining about all of these D1 "transfers" - what about that? so these kids are transferring because their original choice did not live up to their academic expectations - give me a break.

Yup, "Parody" is here, and the race to ER has turned the sport into a flat out joke.

Please look up 'parity' vs 'parody'

ok, well played with the inappropriate use of the terms. I appreciate that you took the time to actually read it, I will give you that. But you never said you would choose any of the above but D, despite this practice being so offensive to you. The overwhelming majority of the kids and parents, if given the choice would select D. And I suspect you would too. Even with your rapier wit. And that's being honest about the topic. And BTW I didn't defend the practice, I simply gave a scenario and asked people to be introspective and realistic. Were you actually in this position and told your kid to wait until 11th grade? Interesting to know the answer

Forget the early recruiting. What about a situation like Duke has. Listening I am almost positive the announcer said 23 yr old sophmore. That me when he is a senior he will be 25. 25 playing against 18 yr olds.

How does that happen.

Also early recruiting does not guarantee anything. Many factors can make that all go away. Like the coach changing his mind because another kid became available or has finally decided to commit. How about the coach moves on or fired (UVA). All his commits mean nothing. Who ever comes in and takes over can do what ever they want. Grades are not there.

There are a lot of 20 yr old freshman at many top lacrosse schools. Pathetic!

That's only a year above normal, most freshmen are 19 by the time the lacrosse season ends.

"only" huh. Do you find yourself using that term often!

I turned 19 and end of freshman year. A lot of these boys are turning 21 at end of freshman year. That's what I should of said before.

they said 21 year old sophomore. he's a kid who did a year of prep school , so whats the problem with the age?

At least he may have decided when he was 17 which college he wants to go to instead of the 14-15 year old who has no clue except for what Mom and Daddy say. I heard one kid picked Michigan because he was a Harbaugh fan and would love to watch him coach when he gets there.

. I heard one kid picked Michigan because he was a Harbaugh fan and would love to watch him coach when he gets there. [/quote]

Heck, my 17 year old D crossed a school off a list because she didn't like what the people in the area were like in a local Denny's. I have friends who have taken their kids on summer tours spent a ton taking kid around to look at colleges, some kids refused to even get out of the car at some schools. Come on. Picking a school because of the football team is NOT the worst reason, especially if its Michigan.

Not much critical thinking goes into a reason why a kid likes one over the other at 14,15,16 of 17.

That's a terrible rationale/explanation. PARENTS are responsible for establishing a family culture that makes sure their kids ultimately assess the potential colleges in a thoughtful way (whether as 9th, 10th, 11th graders, etc).

Reading a parent saying its reasonable for a kid to pick a school based on a football coach/team they can watch speaks to why the USA is falling behind ...

When the school is Michigan (or Stanford, or Notre Dame, whatever) then it doesn't really matter, does it? If he chose Florida State over Dartmouth "because of the football team" then you might have a point.

There will be more and more of these 20 and 21 year old freshman in college lacrosse .. The club world is grade base now and that along with ER has started an increase in holding your child back.
And with PG schools and Sports Schools, kids will be later and later arriving on campus. Sorta sad for a non money sport of lacrosse.

All you folks complaining about players ages, good thing your kids aren't college hockey players. Not uncommon for college players to be in their mid 20s after having spent a few years playing juniors in Canada. My son had a 23 year old freshman on his hall.

Well the then 17 y/o D who did not like the people in the surrounding area is now at an Ivy for grad school, sooooo, I don't think she made a poor choice for undergrad. They attend for a quick 4 years of their lives. If they attend the best academic school they can get into, why shouldn't they go where they will fit in academically and socially? Last I looked, U of M is not a "underperforming" school. Have you ever attended a football game at Notre Dame? Thanks to my irrational/silly 17 year old and her lack of parental input and poor choices, we got to go to several.
A kid has to want to attend a school, love the environment, not just for a spot on a lacrosse team.

The practice is only offensive to me when it rewards those who holdback their precious athletes.

I consider that group the scum of scum. The few on age kids that are lights out I can understand, they deserve the recognition and ER. The parents that claim to have a son on age, but he comes out of the pool with huge tufts of hair under the arms at a 5th grade summer tourney � I'll leave my thoughts about the parents to myself, but that kid shouldn't be recruited early. The owners of travel organizations that recommend your son come to a practice for the grade beneath so you can see more domination, but he is really testing the waters if you'd be willing to hold your son back and play at his private school � should no longer be on the planet to promote ER. He's the one of many destroying the sport. The few players that are decent but rely on the coattails of their older siblings playing D-I, or are the child of an alum, yeah, ER or first looks are inevitable, but please, leave your politics off the field. Good for you that you have the connection, wish we had it.


I know it's all in the game of ER, that's life, but I'm entitled to my opinions even though ER won't change. I come from a hard working-class family that despises hand outs, cheating the system and nepotism, especially by those who claim not to do it.

I've been introspective and realistic as you requested, but don't need to share more of our background other than � our family is lower middle class, non-ethnic, player is near perfect in the classroom, plays for a top team.

The answer your question:

If we got a call early on, it would have to be from an institution that is just out of reach of my child's academic ability, that also would be able to provide financial aid for a non-ethnic middle class family � because the lax 'book money'is not enough. (The university list has now been severely cut to only a handful of options)

The answer is D, but modified.

d) Take the offer. Have a heart to heart about how there is a responsibility to continue to do his best, including academic and athletic strength and integrity. How it turns out will be a lesson in life, it either works out or it doesn't, and that's okay. But we have the faith it will. We as parents will continue to do our best to guide and support him. Yes, the process will be a team effort by the family. Furthermore, I'd emphasize that it's your brain the gets you somewhere in life. Not playing lacrosse in college is not the end of the world. So, now let's give this our best shot!

I would NEVER mention anything about 'screwing up' and creating 'disappointment' as you suggest. It's always about striving to be the best one can be and that is what helps define character. That's all anyone can ask, and if one knows they did his best, it's easy to live with it should things not work out. After all, there's another few thousand recruits in line right behind him and others possibly transferring in from another program. He'll be forgotten by the coach within 24 hours.

And the facts remain, the chances for recruitment are close to zero (especially when you're not a 21 year old freshman coming out of private school with wealthy parents willing to donate to the school)

Looks like we're going to a state school and playing somewhere else as a graduate student!

Can anyone comment on Roster Size. It looks like many of these early recruiting programs are going to drastically increase their rosters. Schools that were in the 46 range may be going to 53-54. What are the implications of this. Are they going to be cutting kids? Or do they have a planned attrition.

The collegiate lacrosse rosters are growing because the typical lacrosse kid is from a upper middle class family and is a better than average student - and will probably never see the field. Full tuition paying parents and good student - good combination for the school! Most importantly the parents can claim little Johnny is playing D1 lacrosse, and it justifies their holdback manuever and private schooling!

If UNC offered your son early would you take the offer knowing the size of the roster. I would say 99 out of 100 would . UNC can pretty much pick any kid they want.

If my kid could play at UNC I would wait for an offer from a better academic school. Paper classes for for their athletes. No thanks.

bingo

UNC has one if the top 10 business schools in North America, it's all what a kid makes of the opportunity.

Sure. Early commit to UNC or wait for an Ivy? No brainier...

Harvard > UNC

or get the best of both and commit early to IVY if it presents itself

#16...nothing to brag about. I wonder how many UNC lax bro's go (qualify) there after undergrad?

plenty of UNC lax players running around wall street -

Stanford
Harvard
Northwestern
Columbia
Dartmouth
Chicago
Penn
UC Berkley
MIT
Cornell

You know what those are? Top 10 business schools in US

UNC is an outstanding school in every way. I do need to take small exception with those who consider working on wall street the badge of success. perhaps it used to be, but the business has changed dramatically and the lax bros. cannot just wave in someone from their alma mater or former teammate. use the same skill set that made you a good student and lax player and apply it to other venues for happiness and success.

Not every lax player is qualified to go to an Ivy League school, in fact most kids don't academically qualify. UNC provides a top notch education along with one of if not the best lacrosse experiences in the nation. I'm sure if the number one team in the nation knocked on your door and was interested in your son you would listen. UNC also has one of the best coaches in the business, I would want him mentoring my son.

Not sure if I'd listen.

They are in the middle of an NCAA investigation for fake classes (mostly for athletes) that spanned at least three decades. Professors deciding if they even want to stay. Millions going into risk management and protecting it's image as opposed to going into the classrooms.

Top notch. Who are you kidding? Or is a different UNC?

If UNC is clamoring for my kid that means he can play for virtually every D1 program. I'd listen but I certainly wouldn't jump on it. Too many programs out there that a far superior academically.

The unfortunate thing about the cheating scandal is it involved the men's and women's basketball and the football teams. It is an excellent university and there wasn't anything in the investigation focused on lacrosse and many other non revenue sports. Full disclosure: I'm a UVA guy.

Wrong order (just splitting hairs)......I do not see UNC there....why not?

I imagine he was referring to undergrad business schools. The above list is clearly grad (professional) schools, though Cornell seems to have snuck its way on the list, lol.

UNC would likely make any undergrad business school top 10 ranking.

Right order. And they aren't there. That's the point!

MIT Sloan
UC Berkley
UPenn Wharton
Cornell Dyson

Above Are the only ones on that list that actually have undergrad business schools.
Actually many of the best undergrad business programs are at state universities such as Virginia-McIntire, UNC-Kenan-Flagler, Michigan-Ross There are no Undergrad business programs at
Stanford
Harvard
Northwestern
Columbia
Dartmouth
Chicago
They are top for an MBA, not for undergrad.

Wish my son could get a great education and play for a top D1 school like UNC. Anyone who says different is jealous, most of the people who comment on here don't have to worry about early recruiting because only the very best get recruited early and are offered scholarship money. UNC has one of the top business schools in the country currently ranked 16th by Forbes along with many other top ranked programs, it's all what your son or daughter makes of it. Congrats to the Team 91 program on having the first two recruits of the 2020 class. Michigan and Penn State are also great schools and I'm sure your sons will make the most of the opportunity.

Guys, you're down the wrong road. First, there are about 20 top bschools and there are many rankings that juggle the list for top 10 or top 15. Keenan at UNC is one. Fuqua at Duke and Darden at UVA are others. Anderson at UCLA...

More important these are graduate schools of business. Your little lax bro won't be getting an MBA during four years of college. Going to a good undergrad college like UNC -- and doing well there -- is a gateway to things like business school.

Got it? Good. Stop splitting nostril hairs. And try the veal.

yet another search challenged all knowing individual

drop the shovel and learn to do a little research

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Best Business Schools
Ranked in 2016 | Best Business Schools Rankings Methodology

A career in business starts with finding the MBA program that fits your needs. With the U.S. News rankings of the top business schools, narrow your search by location, tuition, school size and test scores.

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Rank School name Tuition Enrollment (full-time)

Average GMAT score (full-time)

Acceptance rate (full-time)
#1
Harvard University
Boston, MA

$61,225 per year (full-time) 1,872
Locked
Locked
#2
Tie
Stanford University
Stanford, CA

$64,050 per year (full-time) 824
Locked
Locked
#2
Tie
University of Chicago (Booth)
Chicago, IL

$63,980 per year (full-time) 1,180
Locked
Locked
#4
University of Pennsylvania (Wharton)
Philadelphia, PA

$64,920 per year (full-time) 1,715
Locked
Locked
#5
Tie
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan)
Cambridge, MA

$65,446 per year (full-time) 806
Locked
Locked
#5
Tie
Northwestern University (Kellogg)
Evanston, IL

$64,059 per year (full-time) 1,272
Locked
Locked
#7
University of California�​Berkeley (Haas)
Berkeley, CA

$53,907 per year (in-state, full-time); $55,968 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 502
Locked
Locked
#8
Tie
Dartmouth College (Tuck)
Hanover, NH

$64,200 per year (full-time) 563
Locked
Locked
#8
Tie
Yale University
New Haven, CT

$61,500 per year (full-time) 668
Locked
Locked
#10
Columbia University
New [lacrosse], NY

$65,988 per year (full-time) 1,287
Locked

Best Undergraduate Business Programs Rankings

The undergraduate business program rankings were based solely on peer assessment surveys. To appear on these surveys, undergraduate business programs must be accredited by the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business.

University of Pennsylvania Campus with Jon M. Huntsman Hall, Looking East
Tuition and fees: $49,536 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 9,746
Setting: urban
#1
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA

Founded by Benjamin Franklin, the University of Pennsylvania is a private institution in the University City neighborhood of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Students can study in one of four schools that grant undergraduate degrees: Arts and Sciences, Nursing, Engineering and Applied Sciences, and Wharton.

Get access to expanded profiles, financial aid statistics, GPAs and more.

The Great Dome at MIT
Tuition and fees: $46,704 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 4,512
Setting: urban
#2
Tie
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Cambridge, MA

Though the Massachusetts Institute of Technology may be best known for its math, science and engineering education, this private research university also offers architecture, humanities, management and social science programs. The school is located in Cambridge, Massachusetts, just across the Charles River from downtown Boston.

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UC Berkeley campus landmark, Sather Tower
In-state tuition and fees: $13,432 (2015-16)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $38,140 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 27,126
Setting: city
#2
Tie
University of California--Berkeley
Berkeley, CA

The University of California�Berkeley overlooks the San Francisco Bay in Berkeley, Calif. Students at this public school have more than 700 organizations to get involved in, including more than 55 fraternity and sorority chapters.

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Michigan Union at Sunrise
In-state tuition and fees: $14,336 (2014-15)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $43,377 (2014-15)
Enrollment: 28,395
Setting: city
#4
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor, MI

A public institution, University of Michigan--Ann Arbor was founded in 1817. University of Michigan--Ann Arbor offers a Greek system, where 25 percent of the student body is involved in a sorority and 17 percent is involved in a fraternity.

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Tuition and fees: $46,170 (2014-15)
Enrollment: 24,985
Setting: urban
#5
New [lacrosse] University
New [lacrosse], NY

New [lacrosse] University has a total undergraduate enrollment of 24,985, with a gender distribution of 43.3 percent male students and 56.7 percent female students. At this school, 44 percent of the students live in college-owned, -operated, or -affiliated housing and 56 percent of students live off campus.

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Rotunda and Lawn
In-state tuition and fees: $14,526 (2015-16)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $43,822 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 16,483
Setting: suburban
#6
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA

Founded in 1819, University of Virginia is a public institution. University of Virginia follows a semester-based academic calendar and its admissions are considered most selective.

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Carnegie Mellon University
Tuition and fees: $50,410 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 6,309
Setting: urban
#7
Tie
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA

Carnegie Mellon University, a private institution in Pittsburgh, Pa., is the country�s only school founded by industrialist and philanthropist Andrew Carnegie. The school specializes in academic areas including engineering, business, computer science, and fine arts.

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Debra Barksdale, center, watches as doctoral student Jeongok Logan, left, and post-doctoral fellow Minhee Suh, center, evaluate data.
In-state tuition and fees: $8,562 (2015-16)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $33,644 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 18,350
Setting: suburban
#7
Tie
University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, NC

University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill was established in 1789 as a public institution. University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill follows a semester-based academic calendar and its admissions are considered most selective.

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UT Austin is the flagship school of the University of Texas System, which includes nine academic universities and six health institutions.
In-state tuition and fees: $9,830 (2015-16)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $34,836 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 39,523
Setting: urban
#7
Tie
University of Texas--Austin
Austin, TX

A public institution, University of Texas--Austin was founded in 1883. University of Texas--Austin offers a Greek system, where 17 percent of the student body is involved in a sorority and 15 percent is involved in a fraternity.

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Central campus, with the iconic McGraw clock tower in the background.
Tuition and fees: $49,116 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 14,453
Setting: rural
#10
Tie
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY

Cornell University, a private school in Ithaca, New [lacrosse], has 14 colleges and schools. Each admits its own students, though every graduate receives a degree from Cornell University. The university has more than 1,000 student organizations on campus.

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The Sample Gates and Student Building clock tower of Indiana University
In-state tuition and fees: $10,388 (2015-16)
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $33,741 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 36,419
Setting: city
#10
Tie
Indiana University--Bloomington
Bloomington, IN

Founded in 1820, Indiana University--Bloomington is a public institution. Indiana University--Bloomington follows a semester-based academic calendar and its admissions are considered more selective.

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Main Building
Tuition and fees: $47,929 (2015-16)
Enrollment: 8,448
Setting: city
#10
Tie
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame, IN

The University of Notre Dame is a private, independent, Catholic institution in South Bend, Ind. Notre Dame�s athletic teams, known as the Fighting Irish, play in the NCAA Division I and are particularly competitive on the football field.

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Anybody know when the under armour all American underclass team will be announced?

Another political bit of BS as legitimate as TX and his rankings. And before you say little Johnny wasn't ranked or wasn't an UA all American; too late. He is and was but the selection process is bereft of anything coherent or believable. Kids make it that shouldn't and kids don't that should have. My kid was marginal at best and made it.

These teams are picked before it starts, a complete joke and everyone knows it. Only exception is if a kid goes there and is completely and utterly lights out and clearly a better player than his peers, which we all know is a very rare occurrence.

Money grab sham

Someone's kid didn't make the first cut I guess

Been down this road before. Watch your wallet folks...